| Loyalty Points 16:51 - Oct 8 with 2818 views | saxbend |
Just listened to the excellent podcast. Came for the Bonds, but the loyalty points conversation towards the end really got my attention.
As it happens, I've thought about it before, and I have thought of a way to refine the system that could possibly solve the closed shop issue. I've emailed the club and the outline of my proposal below is more or less pasted directly from that email. I received a very prompt acknowledgement saying that my suggestion was passed on to the relevant people who make the decisions so I'll just have to see if I get a response. The email was sent on the 28th September, so about a week and a half ago.
Rather than wiping points and starting again, which would only lead to the return of the same situation a few years later as well as causing great upset to every fan who has attended many games over the past decade, I would propose to keep all loyalty points counted as they have been, but to add a weighting towards recent seasons as follows:
Every fan's current loyalty points tally would be calculated by first dividing the number of points accumulated in each completed season by the number of seasons that have followed that season. Then add those results together along with the loyalty points accumulated during the current season.
For example, supposing a fan had accumulated the following points across the past 5 seasons:
2016/17 - 220 points
2017/18 - 192 points
2018/19 - 213 points
2019/20 -180 points
2020/21 - 140 points (the only points available were those awarded for season ticket renewal)
And then the same fan currently has 161 loyalty points at this stage in the 2021/22 season.
So their total would be 161 + 140/1 (1 season ago) + 180/2 + 213/3 + 192/4 + 220/5
That would equal 161 + 140 + 90 + 71 + 48 + 44 giving a total of 554 loyalty points.
Fans accumulating points for longer would still have something to show for it, but continued commitment to the present day would be rewarded with higher priority, and younger or newer fans would also have a realistic chance of joining the group of regular attendees who earn themselves access to the tickets that are in greatest demand.
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| Loyalty Points on 17:21 - Oct 8 with 2735 views | daveB |
I don't think we need to over complicate it really.
The Loyalty points as it stands now is fine imo, it's rare we sell out away games other than local ones so it's not normally a problem.
If you did want to change how tickets were sold similar to England matches with a say 70/30 split on loyalty points and general sale that could work and give people a chance to earn more points and get tickets |  | | |
| Loyalty Points on 18:21 - Oct 8 with 2642 views | saxbend |
I don't think a split helps because the sizes of allocations remains the same. Making that allocation even smaller for the people who do qualify and then Readinging off the rest isn't going to make anyone happy.
We do need a priority system. We just want to make it as fair as possible. Once you work out a system that does that, complexity is irrelevant because all that matters is that people receive loyalty points, those points manifest in their account, and they can easily see what their total is, exactly as it is now. Slightly different arithmetic won't change anything. It's not as if people do the addition themselves to calculate their own total as it is. They just look at their points total each time they can't remember it and check it against the required totals for the tickets that are on sale. [Post edited 8 Oct 2021 18:23]
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| Loyalty Points on 17:36 - Oct 9 with 2337 views | daveB |
| Loyalty Points on 18:21 - Oct 8 by saxbend |
I don't think a split helps because the sizes of allocations remains the same. Making that allocation even smaller for the people who do qualify and then Readinging off the rest isn't going to make anyone happy.
We do need a priority system. We just want to make it as fair as possible. Once you work out a system that does that, complexity is irrelevant because all that matters is that people receive loyalty points, those points manifest in their account, and they can easily see what their total is, exactly as it is now. Slightly different arithmetic won't change anything. It's not as if people do the addition themselves to calculate their own total as it is. They just look at their points total each time they can't remember it and check it against the required totals for the tickets that are on sale. [Post edited 8 Oct 2021 18:23]
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I just think it's a lot of work for a problem that will only happen 2/3 times a season at most.
Even Peterborough didn't sell out at 1000 loyalty points which is basically all season ticket holders | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 17:48 - Oct 9 with 2310 views | stevec |
| Loyalty Points on 17:36 - Oct 9 by daveB |
I just think it's a lot of work for a problem that will only happen 2/3 times a season at most.
Even Peterborough didn't sell out at 1000 loyalty points which is basically all season ticket holders |
Curious. Me and my son haven’t been given a single loyalty point for each of our season tickets, can anyone advise if we’ve been screwed over? |  | | |
| Loyalty Points on 09:19 - Oct 15 with 2122 views | saxbend |
I can't say for certain about this season, but normally the standard has been 100 points for a season ticket plus an extra 40 if you have in fact renewed during the renewal window. So there's a very good chance you have been short-changed. Definitely worth phoning to ask. | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 09:21 - Oct 15 with 2108 views | saxbend |
| Loyalty Points on 17:36 - Oct 9 by daveB |
I just think it's a lot of work for a problem that will only happen 2/3 times a season at most.
Even Peterborough didn't sell out at 1000 loyalty points which is basically all season ticket holders |
It's not a lot of work really. Two lines of code to adjust the loyalty points total. The computer does the arithmetic just as easily as it adds them up under the current rules. Any fan curious or nerdy enough to check for him/herself is welcome to do so, but all that's really necessary is that we can look up our points total at any time, just as we do currently. | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 10:00 - Oct 15 with 2025 views | RBlock |
Needlessly complicated |  | | |
| Loyalty Points on 11:09 - Oct 15 with 1952 views | mikeygunn |
If Reading had been handled correctly from the start, I’m not sure this would be an issue. I was nervous about the Peterborough game and was on it as soon as the 100+ tickets came on sale but we still have some left a week later due to the extra batch. Even I. The premier league years I don’t think I missed out on getting a ticket for a game I could attend. The away support is growing but I don’t think we need a rethink at this stage. |  | | |
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| Loyalty Points on 13:29 - Oct 15 with 1802 views | saxbend |
OK another objection that it's complicated.
What is complicated about it? And why is that a problem? | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 13:40 - Oct 15 with 1776 views | daveB |
| Loyalty Points on 17:48 - Oct 9 by stevec |
Curious. Me and my son haven’t been given a single loyalty point for each of our season tickets, can anyone advise if we’ve been screwed over? |
I think you get points when you renew although not sure if that still happens. | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 13:41 - Oct 15 with 1775 views | saxbend |
| Loyalty Points on 11:09 - Oct 15 by mikeygunn |
If Reading had been handled correctly from the start, I’m not sure this would be an issue. I was nervous about the Peterborough game and was on it as soon as the 100+ tickets came on sale but we still have some left a week later due to the extra batch. Even I. The premier league years I don’t think I missed out on getting a ticket for a game I could attend. The away support is growing but I don’t think we need a rethink at this stage. |
The problem with the Reading game was tickets went straight to general sale, i.e. it was as if there were no loyalty system at all, so, I don't see how that relates to what was discussed on the podcast, or any suggestions as to how to refine/improve the loyalty point system we're currently using.
I think Fulham is more pertinent. Demand vastly exceeding supply and newer/younger fans wondering how they could ever make up the ground on those who've been accumulating large numbers of loyalty points since before they were old enough to travel to away games on their own.
On the podcast and elsewhere, the point has been made that it needs to be made fairer somehow.
With a bit of simple arithmetic such as described above, points can be weighted towards recent seasons without ever being wiped out, making it possible for any fan at all to catch up with those who went to loads of games 8 years ago, but a lot fewer more recently. It's simple arithmetic that a computer finds no more difficult than the addition it's already doing for the current totals.
Fair enough if you don't understand it. Not everyone can remember all the way back to their primary school arithmetic lessons, but no-one's asking fans to do the calculations themselves.
Everyone would just see their totals drop down slightly at the start of each season, as previously acquired points become one year older, but there would always be some merit to having been a longterm home and away attendee. | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 13:43 - Oct 15 with 1766 views | daveB |
| Loyalty Points on 13:41 - Oct 15 by saxbend |
The problem with the Reading game was tickets went straight to general sale, i.e. it was as if there were no loyalty system at all, so, I don't see how that relates to what was discussed on the podcast, or any suggestions as to how to refine/improve the loyalty point system we're currently using.
I think Fulham is more pertinent. Demand vastly exceeding supply and newer/younger fans wondering how they could ever make up the ground on those who've been accumulating large numbers of loyalty points since before they were old enough to travel to away games on their own.
On the podcast and elsewhere, the point has been made that it needs to be made fairer somehow.
With a bit of simple arithmetic such as described above, points can be weighted towards recent seasons without ever being wiped out, making it possible for any fan at all to catch up with those who went to loads of games 8 years ago, but a lot fewer more recently. It's simple arithmetic that a computer finds no more difficult than the addition it's already doing for the current totals.
Fair enough if you don't understand it. Not everyone can remember all the way back to their primary school arithmetic lessons, but no-one's asking fans to do the calculations themselves.
Everyone would just see their totals drop down slightly at the start of each season, as previously acquired points become one year older, but there would always be some merit to having been a longterm home and away attendee. |
I don't think it matters what system you have in place, for Fulham away with only 1,900 tickets plenty who wanted to go were going to miss out. | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 14:01 - Oct 15 with 1730 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| Loyalty Points on 13:29 - Oct 15 by saxbend |
OK another objection that it's complicated.
What is complicated about it? And why is that a problem? |
I’m not sure the question is whether it’s complicated (it is a bit) but whether it’s more complicated than the current system (not really). It is however a different system that people aren’t used to and as I’m sure you’re aware, change nearly always meets resistance.
The concept is straight forward, that a fan shouldn’t keep all their loyalty points if they don’t attend matches anymore or attend less. Perhaps we should get an agreement that this is what people first, before bringing maths into it. [Post edited 15 Oct 2021 14:04]
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| Loyalty Points on 14:13 - Oct 15 with 1693 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
| Loyalty Points on 13:43 - Oct 15 by daveB |
I don't think it matters what system you have in place, for Fulham away with only 1,900 tickets plenty who wanted to go were going to miss out. |
“You can please some of the people all of the time, you can please all of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all of the people all of the time” John Lydgate | |
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| Loyalty Points on 14:20 - Oct 15 with 1672 views | RBlock |
| Loyalty Points on 13:29 - Oct 15 by saxbend |
OK another objection that it's complicated.
What is complicated about it? And why is that a problem? |
What is complicated about it?
The fact that loyalty points from previous seasons are reduced in value according to their age. That bit is the complicated bit.
Why is that a problem?
Firstly, it is unnecessary. There are far more straightforward options that could be implemented, including the 70/30 split, giving everyone a chance but still ensuring those with the most points are ensured tickets. Also suggested was that loyalty points could be accrued over a rolling three year period, so the most committed fans currently are prioritised, rather than a fan who has lapsed but can cherry pick big games,.
As was discussed on the podcast, this is probably an issue maybe five teams a season, max. Fulham, Luton, Reading, Brentford (if they come down, fingers crossed). Should we go up, it's a different story, but lets deal with what's in front of us for now.
It's also a problem making it this complicated, because some people won't understand it and contest the amount of points they have. This just creates more drama for the box office staff, having to show their workings, and more moaning on twitter about a magic formula that nobody really gets. | | | |
| Loyalty Points on 16:53 - Oct 17 with 1405 views | saxbend |
| Loyalty Points on 14:20 - Oct 15 by RBlock |
What is complicated about it?
The fact that loyalty points from previous seasons are reduced in value according to their age. That bit is the complicated bit.
Why is that a problem?
Firstly, it is unnecessary. There are far more straightforward options that could be implemented, including the 70/30 split, giving everyone a chance but still ensuring those with the most points are ensured tickets. Also suggested was that loyalty points could be accrued over a rolling three year period, so the most committed fans currently are prioritised, rather than a fan who has lapsed but can cherry pick big games,.
As was discussed on the podcast, this is probably an issue maybe five teams a season, max. Fulham, Luton, Reading, Brentford (if they come down, fingers crossed). Should we go up, it's a different story, but lets deal with what's in front of us for now.
It's also a problem making it this complicated, because some people won't understand it and contest the amount of points they have. This just creates more drama for the box office staff, having to show their workings, and more moaning on twitter about a magic formula that nobody really gets. |
OK, the issue raised in the podcast often enough in other places too, is that the current loyalty points system is a closed shop. Those of us who got in near the beginning accumulated all the points we are likely to ever need assuming we top up just by renewing our season tickets each year, in the first four or five seasons since they made all points permanent.
So in order to make it fairer you need points that have been acquired in recent seasons worth more than points that were acquired long ago. And it needs to always scale towards whichever the current year is, so a simple function that sees points slowly decrease in weight as the date they were acquired moves further into the past solves that problem. Those of us currently privileged can easily maintain the advantage if we keep going to every game, but if we don't, there's room for other keen fans to catch us up, which is as it should be.
Now if you keep that closed shop but reduce it to 70% of the tickets, you just make the shop even smaller shutting more people out, while the remaining 30% very rarely goes to anyone just knocking on the door or those totals, instead being snapped up by the fastest finger first, just as was the case at Reading. So you end up making it even harder for the people it's supposed to help. In fact I wouldn't be surprised it if just leads to touts getting hold of more tickets. Worst of all worlds.
As for the complication, there isn't one really. You accumulate loyalty points. You have a total calculated for you. You can look it up whenever you need to. Over the season it's just straightforward addition, and then just one slightly less straightforward adjustment each summer, which you don't even need to do yourself. It's as easy as the current system, but significantly fairer. | | | |
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