| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe 10:12 - Jan 16 with 2126 views | davman |
I know there is already a Derby thread, so apologies, but the Quest show threw up a new reason for why things aren't moving forward.
Boro and WW are taking legal action for loss of earnings against Derby and any new owner would have to take on the unknown liability for any financial penalty applied.
So, whilst this remains unknown, no-one can commit.
So, yes, both clubs feel cheated, but going after Derby in this way is simply going to kill that club. Is that what they REALLY want? Morris' administration caused this problem, so why not go after him? The EFL's inability to deal with these issues at the time they occurred is a huge contributor to this issue, but no doubt members can't sue the EFL.
What an utter, utter mess.
Surely, some form of agreement can be brokered? Something is better than nothing, so an out of court settlement of a couple of mil for WW and a couple more for 'Boro should do. It is at times like this that the EFL needs to show their mettle. They have cocked up, they have members threatening to take action against each other that could result in another founding member of the football league going out of business.
They are an inherently incompetent organisation, which they have proven year after year and incident after incident, but they absolutely have to get everyone involved together ASAP to thrash this out.
No confidence that they will though... |  |
| |  |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 12:15 - Jan 16 with 1914 views | QPR_Jim |
If I remember correctly Derby (& Morris) lied on their accounting which stopped EFL punishing them in a timely fashion. I think there should be harsher rules for non-compliant accounting practices, so the EFL should tighten that loophole but it was still Derby taking advantage. So I guess you can only go after Derby as the entity rather than the individual who owns them and it should be Derby rather than EFL as they were the one's preventing action in a timely fashion. |  | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 12:16 - Jan 16 with 1911 views | daveB |
They did deny Wycombe a place in the championship by lying so don't have much sympathy for them |  | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 12:28 - Jan 16 with 1887 views | francisbowles |
Agree with that Davman.
It's a real mess and I don't see a solution. I believe that the administrator has a February 1st deadline to decide if Derby are a reasonable prospect of being viable to carry on.
It looks like Derby may be scratched from the league and I would hope that Wycombe, if they don't make it as one of the three teams to be promoted, are reinstated in the Championship and the EFL compensate them for lost revenue. |  | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 13:42 - Jan 16 with 1776 views | terryb |
I would still think that the main problem for any new owners is that they don't own a ground. Having to lease Pride Park from Morris must be a complete turn off.
Would they lose a court case for loss of earnings? Surely that is doubtful & that their costs would have to be paid by the two clubs. There is certainly an arguement that without the appeals, the points deduction would have been applied prior to last season & they would have avoided relegation. This would have meant that Wycombe were relegated as of right. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 14:16 - Jan 16 with 1700 views | Stainrod |
If derby were kicked out, would all points teams have earned against them be deducted? Bad news for us as we beat them away whereas a number of other potential rivals of ours (eg Sheff Utd) lost to them | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 14:20 - Jan 16 with 1685 views | PinnerPaul |
No end to it, do Derby then come after us for acting 'illegally' when we beat them? | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 14:41 - Jan 16 with 1634 views | hantssi |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 14:20 - Jan 16 by PinnerPaul |
No end to it, do Derby then come after us for acting 'illegally' when we beat them? |
Can’t see how they can Paul, we were tried, found guilty and are paying the price. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:01 - Jan 16 with 1584 views | WatfordR |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 14:20 - Jan 16 by PinnerPaul |
No end to it, do Derby then come after us for acting 'illegally' when we beat them? |
As I think has been mentioned before, there's a seven year statute of limitations which means any action that Derby could have taken is now time invalidated. |  | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:03 - Jan 16 with 1575 views | Northernr |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 12:16 - Jan 16 by daveB |
They did deny Wycombe a place in the championship by lying so don't have much sympathy for them |
Not only that, but a good chunk of their support base who are now giving it the "it's not fair that the fans suffer" were taunting Leeds, Boro, Wycombe and others with their "Mel's got you on strings" bolox. I'd be suing them if I was Wycombe too. |  | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:09 - Jan 16 with 1545 views | WatfordR |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:03 - Jan 16 by Northernr |
Not only that, but a good chunk of their support base who are now giving it the "it's not fair that the fans suffer" were taunting Leeds, Boro, Wycombe and others with their "Mel's got you on strings" bolox. I'd be suing them if I was Wycombe too. |
Listening briefly to a Derby fan on 606 last night. Everyone else to blame, us, Aston Villa, the EFL. He said the wage bill when we beat them was £14m pa, turnover £20m pa. Three years later, the wage bill was £44m pa, but the fans had no idea things were so bad because they were told the club was financially sound by Mel Morris.
Now, call me a cynic, but I think a wage bill of more than double turnover of three years previously would have given me some idea that there was a problem. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:12 - Jan 16 with 1527 views | Northernr |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:09 - Jan 16 by WatfordR |
Listening briefly to a Derby fan on 606 last night. Everyone else to blame, us, Aston Villa, the EFL. He said the wage bill when we beat them was £14m pa, turnover £20m pa. Three years later, the wage bill was £44m pa, but the fans had no idea things were so bad because they were told the club was financially sound by Mel Morris.
Now, call me a cynic, but I think a wage bill of more than double turnover of three years previously would have given me some idea that there was a problem. |
There were all sorts of signs all the way through - the sacking of Paul Clement, the way they handled the Keogh and Lawrence thing, the hokey cokey with Steve McClaren, the lunatic sums of money being spent on mediocre Championship players, the total lack of money received for any of their signings in re-sell value... And all the way through it was this "Mel's got the EFL on strings" stuff when they should have been questioning and protesting. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:14 - Jan 16 with 1518 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 13:42 - Jan 16 by terryb |
I would still think that the main problem for any new owners is that they don't own a ground. Having to lease Pride Park from Morris must be a complete turn off.
Would they lose a court case for loss of earnings? Surely that is doubtful & that their costs would have to be paid by the two clubs. There is certainly an arguement that without the appeals, the points deduction would have been applied prior to last season & they would have avoided relegation. This would have meant that Wycombe were relegated as of right. |
Whilst the question of ground ownership is an issue, it can easily be resolved by factoring a deal into the sale. The prospect of legal action from Wycombe and/or Middlesbrough is a trickier issue to overcome as it's an unknown quantity. Neither seller nor buyer will want to assume liability going forward. |  | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:22 - Jan 16 with 1478 views | ted_hendrix |
They've got a bloody good Manager at the moment, the bloke is performing miracles and that's something I thought I'd never say, I thought his appointment was a bloody joke and would be a disaster.
In other words might be wise to ignore me when It comes to matters relating to football.  |  |
| My Father had a profound influence on me, he was a lunatic. |
| |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:53 - Jan 16 with 1413 views | PinnerPaul |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:22 - Jan 16 by ted_hendrix |
They've got a bloody good Manager at the moment, the bloke is performing miracles and that's something I thought I'd never say, I thought his appointment was a bloody joke and would be a disaster.
In other words might be wise to ignore me when It comes to matters relating to football. |
My point was I suppose, we were 'illegal' at the time of the play off final. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 16:48 - Jan 16 with 1301 views | davman |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 12:16 - Jan 16 by daveB |
They did deny Wycombe a place in the championship by lying so don't have much sympathy for them |
I just don't buy this though. Most of the things they did wrong were done way before Wycombe were even in the Championship, so why is just Wycombe who are justified in going after them? What about Leeds, who got knocked out of the playoffs the year 'Boro finished 7th? Or Rotherham who got relegated in that season?
I guess the Q is whether you think Derby have to go under because one owner screwed them over. If you think they should, fine, be comfortable with what is ahead of DCFC. For me,' Boro should stop their nonsense; they wouldn' t have beaten Leeds or Villa that season anyway. And Wycombe should have got more points instead of trying an argument that they, personally, were "injured" by Derby.
As I say, an utter, utter mess... | |
| |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 16:56 - Jan 16 with 1269 views | Northernr |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 16:48 - Jan 16 by davman |
I just don't buy this though. Most of the things they did wrong were done way before Wycombe were even in the Championship, so why is just Wycombe who are justified in going after them? What about Leeds, who got knocked out of the playoffs the year 'Boro finished 7th? Or Rotherham who got relegated in that season?
I guess the Q is whether you think Derby have to go under because one owner screwed them over. If you think they should, fine, be comfortable with what is ahead of DCFC. For me,' Boro should stop their nonsense; they wouldn' t have beaten Leeds or Villa that season anyway. And Wycombe should have got more points instead of trying an argument that they, personally, were "injured" by Derby.
As I say, an utter, utter mess... |
It's certainly a can of worms. And I guess it could set a precedent that any team that goes into admin or breaches FFP could be sued by any other club they've outperformed for loss of earnings.
I think with this it's the fact they not only breached the rules, but breached it through multiple seasons, deliberately covered it up with illegal workarounds, continued to spend ungodly amounts on players they shouldn't have been allowed right up until last summer (when they signed Jozwiak and Bielik for north of £10m and haven't paid for either of them), and took the piss all the way through, with the frivolous legal appeals dragging everything out, the 'on strings' stuff.
Boro are angry because Gibson had been calling it out for years, saying what they were doing was illegal and wrong. He's also had to sell players he didn't want to sell to keep Boro compliant, although it sounds like they may breach themselves next year now which makes his complaints ring a little hollow when they're taking on Arsenal Boy Bot 2.1 and paying a chunk of his extortionate wage to do it.
Wycombe have the only true, genuine case for me. Derby should have been docked points last season, that's a stone cold fact based on their refiled accounts. Had they been so, Wycombe survive. I think that's unusually cut and dried and worth pursuing. Boro probably less so. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 17:17 - Jan 16 with 1199 views | QPR_Jim |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 16:48 - Jan 16 by davman |
I just don't buy this though. Most of the things they did wrong were done way before Wycombe were even in the Championship, so why is just Wycombe who are justified in going after them? What about Leeds, who got knocked out of the playoffs the year 'Boro finished 7th? Or Rotherham who got relegated in that season?
I guess the Q is whether you think Derby have to go under because one owner screwed them over. If you think they should, fine, be comfortable with what is ahead of DCFC. For me,' Boro should stop their nonsense; they wouldn' t have beaten Leeds or Villa that season anyway. And Wycombe should have got more points instead of trying an argument that they, personally, were "injured" by Derby.
As I say, an utter, utter mess... |
There's two separate issues, any team is free to over spend on FFP but they have to accept (under the current FFP rules) the points punishment they will get as a result. So Middlesbrough or us exceeding FFP rules is a separate issue.
Why Derby are in trouble is that they chose to deceive the EFL with their accounts to hide it, so their punishments weren't handed out in the appropriate time frame. This impacted Middlesbrough and Wycombe, the outcome for Wycombe being easier to quantify than Middlesbrough's loss of a shot at being promoted through the playoffs.
The issue of punishing Derby rather the Morris is that they are the entity who's accounts were incorrect, so there'd be no case against him personally. He should be banned from ever owning a club again. But if you let them off and focus on the owner you'll end up with every club flouting the rules and getting no penalty as long as the owner leaves, which would be madness. | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 17:26 - Jan 16 with 1175 views | CLAREMAN1995 |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:22 - Jan 16 by ted_hendrix |
They've got a bloody good Manager at the moment, the bloke is performing miracles and that's something I thought I'd never say, I thought his appointment was a bloody joke and would be a disaster.
In other words might be wise to ignore me when It comes to matters relating to football. |
I watched the Gary Nevile interview with Fat Frank and he gave a brilliant insight into the Derby playoff loss to be fair .He knew they were fcuked financially once they did not get promoted and now look at the mess they are in.It sure sounds like the owner is a slimeball but across the World of sports its mostly the same sadly .
They are saying online Rooney would bolt for Everton the second he was contacted .
Frank Lampard basically said he should have never taken the Chelsea job its the same for Rooney IMO.Lots of reasons but mainly going from managing regular players in the Championship to 15 or 20 international players is the kiss of death for an inexperienced manager so buyer beware | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 18:09 - Jan 16 with 1089 views | davman |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 16:56 - Jan 16 by Northernr |
It's certainly a can of worms. And I guess it could set a precedent that any team that goes into admin or breaches FFP could be sued by any other club they've outperformed for loss of earnings.
I think with this it's the fact they not only breached the rules, but breached it through multiple seasons, deliberately covered it up with illegal workarounds, continued to spend ungodly amounts on players they shouldn't have been allowed right up until last summer (when they signed Jozwiak and Bielik for north of £10m and haven't paid for either of them), and took the piss all the way through, with the frivolous legal appeals dragging everything out, the 'on strings' stuff.
Boro are angry because Gibson had been calling it out for years, saying what they were doing was illegal and wrong. He's also had to sell players he didn't want to sell to keep Boro compliant, although it sounds like they may breach themselves next year now which makes his complaints ring a little hollow when they're taking on Arsenal Boy Bot 2.1 and paying a chunk of his extortionate wage to do it.
Wycombe have the only true, genuine case for me. Derby should have been docked points last season, that's a stone cold fact based on their refiled accounts. Had they been so, Wycombe survive. I think that's unusually cut and dried and worth pursuing. Boro probably less so. |
Yep, horrible, horrible situation and there is no doubt that Derby behaved abhorrently. This is a football matter and nothing to do with the law of the land in my opinion. Boro and WW are members of an organisation in the EFL that set the rules and utterly, utterly failed to enforce them. Derby may have been doing all sorts of things that were wrong, but the EFL allowed them to do so by not punishing them appropriately and promptly. They set rules, but put nothing in place to enforce them. They are equally culpable in all this mess.
Boro and WW get too greedy with their case v Derby (and they will) and no owner will take over as there will be an unknown liability over their heads. So the situation drags on and that will be that for Derby.
...and if they are successful, what then? Can Derby come after us? Yes, we were punished in line with the rules, but Derby got no benefit from it?
The EFL (and the FA by the way) are unfit to govern the game we love and yet no-one ever seems to go after them. It is a real shame...  | |
| |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 18:19 - Jan 16 with 1050 views | terryb |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 15:14 - Jan 16 by Benny_the_Ball |
Whilst the question of ground ownership is an issue, it can easily be resolved by factoring a deal into the sale. The prospect of legal action from Wycombe and/or Middlesbrough is a trickier issue to overcome as it's an unknown quantity. Neither seller nor buyer will want to assume liability going forward. |
I don't see how you could factor a sale of the ground into any deal. It is owned by other parties (Morris) & is not the administrators to sell.
They may be able to approach Morris to include a lease of the ground in the sale, but that would be there limitation. [Post edited 16 Jan 2022 18:31]
| | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 18:40 - Jan 16 with 992 views | DWQPR |
Fact is that the whole FFP idea is causing more mayhem then it is proposed to stop. Clubs selling grounds to get round the rules to their own owner is ludicrous and should have never have been acceptable in the first place. Owners are taking gambles knowing that they will be overspending to try and get to the promised land is just the gamble it seems and when it doesn’t work you get situations like Reading, Sheff Weds, Bristol City and by the sounds of it Stoke. And I wouldn’t be surprised to see Forest thrown into the mix and in the next few years If they done achieve promotion this season Bournemouth and West Brom. The whole thing needs to be scrapped it is both unfair and unworkable. If a mega rich benefactor wants to try and spend his way to the PL with his beloved boyhood club (supported from the age of six from Kuala Lumpar/Dehli/Moscow/Athens etc then they should also lodge a huge wedge of cash in a deposit bond with the EFL as a safety net for that club in the event they decide to do a ‘Mel’. | |
| |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 19:05 - Jan 16 with 926 views | daveB |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 16:48 - Jan 16 by davman |
I just don't buy this though. Most of the things they did wrong were done way before Wycombe were even in the Championship, so why is just Wycombe who are justified in going after them? What about Leeds, who got knocked out of the playoffs the year 'Boro finished 7th? Or Rotherham who got relegated in that season?
I guess the Q is whether you think Derby have to go under because one owner screwed them over. If you think they should, fine, be comfortable with what is ahead of DCFC. For me,' Boro should stop their nonsense; they wouldn' t have beaten Leeds or Villa that season anyway. And Wycombe should have got more points instead of trying an argument that they, personally, were "injured" by Derby.
As I say, an utter, utter mess... |
Wycombes argument is that if Derby had been given the 6 point deduction they should have had last season they would have stayed up which seems fair to be honest. I think they have a strong case. The playoff one is a bit of a can of worms as if Boro had made the playoffs I'm not sure how they can say they would have won them | | | |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 19:13 - Jan 16 with 901 views | Mick_S |
| Derby v 'Boro and Wycombe on 17:26 - Jan 16 by CLAREMAN1995 |
I watched the Gary Nevile interview with Fat Frank and he gave a brilliant insight into the Derby playoff loss to be fair .He knew they were fcuked financially once they did not get promoted and now look at the mess they are in.It sure sounds like the owner is a slimeball but across the World of sports its mostly the same sadly .
They are saying online Rooney would bolt for Everton the second he was contacted .
Frank Lampard basically said he should have never taken the Chelsea job its the same for Rooney IMO.Lots of reasons but mainly going from managing regular players in the Championship to 15 or 20 international players is the kiss of death for an inexperienced manager so buyer beware |
Rooney can bide his time regarding the Everton job because very little is going to change there. This is the wrong time for him. If he “saves” Derby, the bloke is a god. |  |
| Did I ever mention that I was in Minder? |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
