| Warbs from West London Sport on 08:56 - May 4 with 2995 views | ngbqpr |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 08:31 - May 4 by Northolt_Rs |
QPR u23 P23 W6 D3 L14
QPR u18 P23 W3 D5 L15
Both teams finished rock bottom of the respective leagues. [Post edited 4 May 2022 8:34]
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These teams are all about finding that tiny number of gems (you won't need more than one hand to count them) that can make the transition to the first team.
With u18s in particular (and u23s too if mostly u20 players cos the main prospects are out on loan) results / league positions are irrelevant.
Dave Mc is right to centre the debate on whether academies are a worthwhile investment for all but the biggest clubs in this day and age, especially when the likes of Eze, Dieng, Chair arrived in their late teens.
I won't pretend to know the academy sums, eg does 1.5mill for Furlong and 80+ first team apps from Lumley (both with us all the way through) cover the cost. |  |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:09 - May 4 with 2941 views | Burnleyhoop |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 00:56 - May 4 by Benny_the_Ball |
Good point though I would add that neither Eze nor Chair came through QPR's academy. Dave is of the opinion that the B team should replace the academy rather than exist alongside it. I can't say I blame him because most of the youngsters that have become a fixture in the first team did not come from the academy, they were picked up from other clubs. |
And that in truth, is nearly always where we will pick up our next generation of first team players.
To expect a regular supply of academy graduates coming through to the first team is idiotic. The strategy of buying cheap prospects like Willock, Dickie and Dunne and developing them by giving them first team experience or loans moves, is always going to be far more productive and ultimately lucrative than waiting and hoping for the next Sterling to miraculously appear.
The scouting network needs to be more of a priority, imo, than youth development. We could be waiting for years before seeing the academy produce what is required.
We also need to stop wasting what meagre financial resources we have on older has beens for very short term gains. We gambled again and are now back in the shit with the blame game in full swing. |  | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:42 - May 4 with 2808 views | TheChef |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 08:32 - May 4 by Ned_Kennedys |
The whole situation is a sorry state of affairs, especially decent hard working players out of contract very soon with apparently no clarity on whether they will be staying or not.
I’ve been saying on here all season that Warburton wasn’t interested in the U23s at all: not putting any of them on the bench and only having 6 subs was a Redknapp move IMO.
There was also talk that the U23 squad was in a different Covid bubble and couldn’t be picked which seemed ridiculous to me as other teams were playing youngsters where necessary.
Having watched the U23s a number of times over the last few seasons a few should have at least been considered: Duke McKenna, Gubbins, Armstrong spring to mind. None of us would have considered Murphy Mahoney anywhere near first team standard but has taken his chance and can only get better. Yes most of them will not make it but that’s the same at any club. [Post edited 4 May 2022 9:45]
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Yes I think MW made a rod for his own back unfortunately.
Barely anyone had heard of Mahoney until a few weeks ago, but he's come in and not disgraced himself and like you say hopefully can only get better.
Given our misfiring strikers Armstrong should have been given a chance already. He may not be the answer, but if you don't give him the opportunity then how do you know? |  |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:46 - May 4 with 2768 views | Blue_Castello |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 03:18 - May 4 by nadera78 |
Having thought about it a bit more, the thing that really pissed me off with that article is that Tony Fernandes is still meddling in player signings.
Eleven years after first walking through the door at Loftus Rd, with all the mistakes he's made since then (that we as a club are paying for and likely will continue for many years to come) he still thinks he knows football. The arrogance and hubris is off the scale.
Fernandes is clearly not a malicious person, but he's got to rank as one of the most incompetent owners in football history. |
Well it reads that Fernandes got involved with getting Austin back, now I'm 68 and have supported the club since 1966 and I still got excited by Austin coming back. At the time we were in relegation form, playing really badly and desperately needed some experienced players to galvanise the squad, the four signings including Austin all hit the ground running and we had a tremendous end to the season, the bu**er was we had to watch it on the Internet, I'm guessing that all the four signings were approved by Warburton.
It does seem one of the major issues from all the comments is a lack of progression for the Academy into the first team, I'm with Warburton here if the Academy isn't producing the quality needed then you can't expect them to be thrown into a very tough Championship game, particularly if your expectations are promtion. I do agree that it's baffling why they can't be added to the bench for specific games but you have to trust the Managers judgement.
I think the Board are continually looking over their shoulders at Brentford and seeing their club run incredibly well financially and administratively, it maybe making them think twice about the validity of an Academy when the Brentford B team model has so much success. | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:53 - May 4 with 2724 views | davman |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 00:53 - May 4 by PunteR |
But who really wants to be just a selling club and focusing on youth development?
Players?, manager?, fans?, or owners and accountant's, DoF's and youth coaches?
What player or manager is remotely interested in the balancing of books for their club?
Maybe I'm wrong or naive but surely football is about competition on the pitch? There's always going to be problems when winning football matches is compromised to suit agendas unrelated to 3pm kick off.
I think the two things can exist at a club but the priority should be winning football matches and everybody should be on the same page and doing everything they can to do that.
The youth department just needs to get better. I've no idea how ?. Scouting, recruitment, coaching needs to improve to get up to championship standard or unfortunately the standard of the 1st team drops to L1 or L2 levels to meet what's coming the other way. |
To be self sufficient, we either need to develop assets to sell on for a profit OR we cut the outgoings considerably, which would mean a L1 budget.
WITH S&P rules in place, those are the choices for a club of our size. |  |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:58 - May 4 with 2705 views | terryb |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 18:30 - May 3 by Northernr |
I saw him get linked somewhere else today but can't remember where... |
I'm fairly sure that Mckenna has been heavily linked to Watford & quite a lot of Ipswich supporters are expecting to lose him. | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:25 - May 4 with 2570 views | nadera78 |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:46 - May 4 by Blue_Castello |
Well it reads that Fernandes got involved with getting Austin back, now I'm 68 and have supported the club since 1966 and I still got excited by Austin coming back. At the time we were in relegation form, playing really badly and desperately needed some experienced players to galvanise the squad, the four signings including Austin all hit the ground running and we had a tremendous end to the season, the bu**er was we had to watch it on the Internet, I'm guessing that all the four signings were approved by Warburton.
It does seem one of the major issues from all the comments is a lack of progression for the Academy into the first team, I'm with Warburton here if the Academy isn't producing the quality needed then you can't expect them to be thrown into a very tough Championship game, particularly if your expectations are promtion. I do agree that it's baffling why they can't be added to the bench for specific games but you have to trust the Managers judgement.
I think the Board are continually looking over their shoulders at Brentford and seeing their club run incredibly well financially and administratively, it maybe making them think twice about the validity of an Academy when the Brentford B team model has so much success. |
Just on your last point re Brentford's use of the B team, they have submitted a planning application to develop their training ground and it includes Academy facilities, so they are heading back to having that more conventional set up in the near future. | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:38 - May 4 with 2512 views | Antti_Heinola |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 08:56 - May 4 by ngbqpr |
These teams are all about finding that tiny number of gems (you won't need more than one hand to count them) that can make the transition to the first team.
With u18s in particular (and u23s too if mostly u20 players cos the main prospects are out on loan) results / league positions are irrelevant.
Dave Mc is right to centre the debate on whether academies are a worthwhile investment for all but the biggest clubs in this day and age, especially when the likes of Eze, Dieng, Chair arrived in their late teens.
I won't pretend to know the academy sums, eg does 1.5mill for Furlong and 80+ first team apps from Lumley (both with us all the way through) cover the cost. |
Something that Dave, and many others, fail to mention when discussing the 'costs' of an Academy, or youth system, is the responsibility of a professional club to the local community. It should be there both to find players but also to provide links with the community and give the sense that it is a club that supports its environs and the people within it. I find it pretty disgusting that any professional club would abandon its academy personally. |  |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:48 - May 4 with 2469 views | gigiisourgod |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 09:09 - May 4 by Burnleyhoop |
And that in truth, is nearly always where we will pick up our next generation of first team players.
To expect a regular supply of academy graduates coming through to the first team is idiotic. The strategy of buying cheap prospects like Willock, Dickie and Dunne and developing them by giving them first team experience or loans moves, is always going to be far more productive and ultimately lucrative than waiting and hoping for the next Sterling to miraculously appear.
The scouting network needs to be more of a priority, imo, than youth development. We could be waiting for years before seeing the academy produce what is required.
We also need to stop wasting what meagre financial resources we have on older has beens for very short term gains. We gambled again and are now back in the shit with the blame game in full swing. |
Agree, and if this was MW argument to the board and they couldn’t see that then would have to conclude it is a major concern / failing on their part. That said, MW was possibly a bit too staunch in his rebuke of the youth team heard over several podcasts and evident with the 6 sub decision (if indeed not influenced by Covid factors) against Stoke | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:56 - May 4 with 2434 views | daveB |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 07:44 - May 4 by BklynRanger |
Yeah but no but it's not so much about them being out of contract but how it's handled.
The Luton players might have been given clarity or explanations that have allowed that situation to act as an incentive, or at least not an ongoing collective gripe. It doesn't sound like our players have.
More to it in terms of morale though definitely, but that's one area that you wouldn't have needed to be Paul Daniels or even Debbie McGee to get straight. |
like all of this it's not a right or wrong answer. If say the club had done as Clive mentioned and told Barbet this is your deal if we go up and this if we don't what do we do with players we plan to release if we had gone up or release either way, would possibly create a divide.
At least by waiting until the end of the season everyone is in the same boat. When you look at all clubs out of contract players we don't seem to be alone in doing this |  | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:56 - May 4 with 2433 views | EastR |
Whatever you think about the merits of the article, or of the reporter, whether you believe the report is factual, or 100% accurate, or simply an overdramatised ‘click’ piece what it definitely has done is shed some light on what are clearly some issues behind the scenes.
There’s a danger of falling into one of two polarized camps here that apportions the blame between those who have left (the manager) and those who remain (the Board, DOF, CEO), when there’s clearly a collective responsibility that needs to be taken in the best interests of the club.
No one camp has got a monopoly on all the best decisions, (for example, Austin’s contract early release clause) without balancing that out with what appears to be equally poor decisions such as Barbet’s apparent imminent departure. If the CEO or DOF were responsible for the first, well done, but if player contracts are their area responsibility then they’ve fallen badly short on the second.
I have no doubt there is some truth in the description of how things have unfolded behind the scenes and its really disappointing that individual tensions in important working relationships have impacted on the outcome of the season. That is to the benefit of nobody. Not the club financially, not the supporters, the players or the departing manager.
We’ve either got a plan, a philosophy for how we want to do things, and we stick to that, or we haven’t.
It seems to me that, so far at least, we’ve had most success, not all, from buying in talented players who for whatever reason — injury record, lack of opportunity — haven’t fulfilled their potential elsewhere. That can only come about from a collective effort — scouting, coaching, the manager, the business side when you comes to contract arrangements and knowing when to sell on.
Can we have that model alongside an academy model too? I don’t know the answer to that question but, whatever it is, everyone at the club needs to be on board and to stick with it. Otherwise you can keep hiring and firing managers and all you will do at best is to standstill or, as has happened this season, go backwards. | |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:08 - May 4 with 2356 views | THEBUSH |
As far as I can see, MW was the first team manager and was under contract., to do so.
Most of my working life, not in football, but in the construction industry, I worked with a set term contract.
if I suggested to my employer how to run his company, I know what he:d say.
Just to say, in a previous message board, I said , stick with MW, now Ive changed my mind. |  | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:13 - May 4 with 2334 views | Headington |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:56 - May 4 by EastR |
Whatever you think about the merits of the article, or of the reporter, whether you believe the report is factual, or 100% accurate, or simply an overdramatised ‘click’ piece what it definitely has done is shed some light on what are clearly some issues behind the scenes.
There’s a danger of falling into one of two polarized camps here that apportions the blame between those who have left (the manager) and those who remain (the Board, DOF, CEO), when there’s clearly a collective responsibility that needs to be taken in the best interests of the club.
No one camp has got a monopoly on all the best decisions, (for example, Austin’s contract early release clause) without balancing that out with what appears to be equally poor decisions such as Barbet’s apparent imminent departure. If the CEO or DOF were responsible for the first, well done, but if player contracts are their area responsibility then they’ve fallen badly short on the second.
I have no doubt there is some truth in the description of how things have unfolded behind the scenes and its really disappointing that individual tensions in important working relationships have impacted on the outcome of the season. That is to the benefit of nobody. Not the club financially, not the supporters, the players or the departing manager.
We’ve either got a plan, a philosophy for how we want to do things, and we stick to that, or we haven’t.
It seems to me that, so far at least, we’ve had most success, not all, from buying in talented players who for whatever reason — injury record, lack of opportunity — haven’t fulfilled their potential elsewhere. That can only come about from a collective effort — scouting, coaching, the manager, the business side when you comes to contract arrangements and knowing when to sell on.
Can we have that model alongside an academy model too? I don’t know the answer to that question but, whatever it is, everyone at the club needs to be on board and to stick with it. Otherwise you can keep hiring and firing managers and all you will do at best is to standstill or, as has happened this season, go backwards. |
Agree. It is sad that the manager and academy side can't get along when they are both committed to developing young players. Don't think we should underestimate the damage done by the McClaren year on the development of young players and playing style. Another poor owner intervention that has proved costly. | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:39 - May 4 with 2218 views | BklynRanger |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:56 - May 4 by daveB |
like all of this it's not a right or wrong answer. If say the club had done as Clive mentioned and told Barbet this is your deal if we go up and this if we don't what do we do with players we plan to release if we had gone up or release either way, would possibly create a divide.
At least by waiting until the end of the season everyone is in the same boat. When you look at all clubs out of contract players we don't seem to be alone in doing this |
I think there is a wrong answer tbh Dave, which is to leave players you're relying on for a promotion push hanging without making a proper attempt to communicate with them.
That's how it's been described at this point anyway.
It doesn't mean you need to treat individual players differently - you could have all the players who are going out of contract in a room, acknowledge their situation, explain as far as you can where the club is at and give them a sense of when they can know by. That's off the top of my head obviously, I don't get paid to do it... All parties will be aware of the various factors anyway but the point is there is a way to handle it properly and a way not to. |  | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:47 - May 4 with 2179 views | daveB |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:39 - May 4 by BklynRanger |
I think there is a wrong answer tbh Dave, which is to leave players you're relying on for a promotion push hanging without making a proper attempt to communicate with them.
That's how it's been described at this point anyway.
It doesn't mean you need to treat individual players differently - you could have all the players who are going out of contract in a room, acknowledge their situation, explain as far as you can where the club is at and give them a sense of when they can know by. That's off the top of my head obviously, I don't get paid to do it... All parties will be aware of the various factors anyway but the point is there is a way to handle it properly and a way not to. |
I don' know if that has happened or not but seems to be that players and manager were told talks would happen at the end of the season so they are all aware | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:50 - May 4 with 2163 views | Northernr |
It's poor. End of. You want players to commit, maximum effort, play through injuries - treat them like adults.
The next time there is a situation even remotely like BOS and Manning we are not allowed to say a single word in complaint or protest. |  | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 12:02 - May 4 with 2096 views | W7Ranger |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 23:12 - May 3 by gigiisourgod |
I think Sam Field will be worth substantially more than anyone that comes through the youth team in the next couple of years |
So will Jimmy Dunne, Rob Dickie, Luke Amos, Chris Willock etc... |  | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 12:22 - May 4 with 2014 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:38 - May 4 by Antti_Heinola |
Something that Dave, and many others, fail to mention when discussing the 'costs' of an Academy, or youth system, is the responsibility of a professional club to the local community. It should be there both to find players but also to provide links with the community and give the sense that it is a club that supports its environs and the people within it. I find it pretty disgusting that any professional club would abandon its academy personally. |
Agree 100%.
Also, the running costs of any Academy are nil for S&P/FFP purposes, so any money we make out of sales is 100% profit for S&P/FFP. |  |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 12:25 - May 4 with 1992 views | daveB |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 11:50 - May 4 by Northernr |
It's poor. End of. You want players to commit, maximum effort, play through injuries - treat them like adults.
The next time there is a situation even remotely like BOS and Manning we are not allowed to say a single word in complaint or protest. |
I do agree with you but it's interesting though that we are not alone in doing this, would telling a few players a few months back we're letting you go if we go up but if we don't we want you to stay be any better? | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 12:38 - May 4 with 1911 views | Northernr |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 12:25 - May 4 by daveB |
I do agree with you but it's interesting though that we are not alone in doing this, would telling a few players a few months back we're letting you go if we go up but if we don't we want you to stay be any better? |
A few months maybe not, but we haven't been going up for a long time now, I would have expected them to have at least had a conversation by the start of April. It's May now.
It hasn't worked very well keeping them completely in the dark has it?
I just think it's a shtty way to deal with people, and you should treat people as you expect to be treated yourself. BOS and Manning both got grief for the way they handled their situations, we haven't got a moral leg to stand on now if Dickie or Willock were to do the same to us. | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 13:14 - May 4 with 1751 views | HAYESBOY |
For the life of me i cannot understand why we have not got Barbet on a new deal at least.
Nearly always available for selection and gives us balance in a back 3.
Does anyone know if Manning plays three at the back? |  |
| Smells like a trout farm in here |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 13:18 - May 4 with 1722 views | THEBUSH |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 12:38 - May 4 by Northernr |
A few months maybe not, but we haven't been going up for a long time now, I would have expected them to have at least had a conversation by the start of April. It's May now.
It hasn't worked very well keeping them completely in the dark has it?
I just think it's a shtty way to deal with people, and you should treat people as you expect to be treated yourself. BOS and Manning both got grief for the way they handled their situations, we haven't got a moral leg to stand on now if Dickie or Willock were to do the same to us. |
The way i read it with BOS and Manning, it was Mark Warburton who was somewhat giving them grief ? | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 13:23 - May 4 with 1674 views | ed_83 |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 13:14 - May 4 by HAYESBOY |
For the life of me i cannot understand why we have not got Barbet on a new deal at least.
Nearly always available for selection and gives us balance in a back 3.
Does anyone know if Manning plays three at the back? |
This article suggests he does tend to use a back three:
https://totalfootballanalysis.com/head-coach-analysis/liam-manning-mk-dons-20212 | | | |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 13:29 - May 4 with 1612 views | ngbqpr |
| Warbs from West London Sport on 10:38 - May 4 by Antti_Heinola |
Something that Dave, and many others, fail to mention when discussing the 'costs' of an Academy, or youth system, is the responsibility of a professional club to the local community. It should be there both to find players but also to provide links with the community and give the sense that it is a club that supports its environs and the people within it. I find it pretty disgusting that any professional club would abandon its academy personally. |
I am very involved in kids' grass roots football, and have seen most of the academies near to me (in Notts) up close.
Academies are ALL about hoping to find the next Foden, and failing that for smaller clubs, the next player they may make a few quid from - it's a brutal world and nothing to do with the community. In our case, that's surely where the Trust comes in?
I'd love it if we could afford to sustain an Academy and it brought local talent through...but the vast majority of kids who sign won't make the grade. | |
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| Warbs from West London Sport on 13:32 - May 4 with 1589 views | baz_qpr |
I think there is a discussion to be had as to what constitutes acadamy success. Eze was picked up at 18 Chair was 19 they both completed their football education at QPR first in 18s or 23s and then beyond. Anyone decent we pick up at under 16 seems to get pinched, that is just the way of it, but I disagree there is no value in it.
Our plan has to be Acadamy + Rough Diamonds + Premier league cast offs + Experienced quality at the latter part of their career. If we are to survive as a club because lets be frank it will take some time to just become a yo yo club unless we get really lucky with a match winner |  | | |
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