| Saints charged with spying 09:48 - May 9 with 101041 views | KensalT |
Southampton haven't yet denied these allegations!
For anyone who doesn't know Boro caught someone with some very sophisticated cameras and recording equipment spying on one of their training sessions.
Apparently Boro are looking into the possibility that Saints have done this to other teams this season.
Nightmare timing for the EFL. I can't see any way for them to fudge this
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| Saints charged with spying on 09:19 - May 10 with 2753 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:01 - May 9 by dmm |
If Soton are found to have done this, surely they must not only be fined but also eliminated from the competition. It's a level of cheating verging on fraud. |
I wouldn't go as far as calling it fraud but you could make an argument for industrial espionage which is both a civil and criminal offence in the UK.
I don't think it will go that far. The EFL (and probably the FA) will be desperate to keep it in-house. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 09:49 - May 10 with 2657 views | nix |
| Saints charged with spying on 12:23 - May 9 by BrianMcCarthy |
https://images.gc.eflservices.
Reading up on the rules, this rule doesn't seem to have a defined penalty attached.
Never understand why organisations who draw up rules and clauses don't take the extra time to insert a defined penalty as well.
This could drag on... |
Absolutely.
They’re so useless. It’s asking for trouble. If you have a defined punishment then it’s surely easier legally to enforce it (admittedly I am not a lawyer). Whereas if you don’t then it’s surely easier for teams that have been caught to claim unreasonable punishment?
I don’t get why it’s not considered a serious offence. If they didn’t think they were getting an unfair competitive advantage then they wouldn’t be doing it. |  | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:01 - May 10 with 2633 views | dmm |
| Saints charged with spying on 09:19 - May 10 by KensalT |
I wouldn't go as far as calling it fraud but you could make an argument for industrial espionage which is both a civil and criminal offence in the UK.
I don't think it will go that far. The EFL (and probably the FA) will be desperate to keep it in-house. |
Yep, industrial espionage is a more accurate description. It's a bit more 'sexy' too and would be a good headline grabber.
Nix makes a good point that they wouldn't do it if it didn't provide an advantage. It clearly brings the game into disrepute and should be punished. |  | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:39 - May 10 with 2562 views | Hunterhoop |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:01 - May 10 by dmm |
Yep, industrial espionage is a more accurate description. It's a bit more 'sexy' too and would be a good headline grabber.
Nix makes a good point that they wouldn't do it if it didn't provide an advantage. It clearly brings the game into disrepute and should be punished. |
The EFL are likely desperately hoping Southampton do not beat Boro in the play offs and go up. If they don’t gain promotion they might be able to get away with a fine and/or small points deduction as they won’t have materially benefitted from the cheating.
If they win the play offs, the EFL have a real problem. The other play off sides could launch claims against the EFL that without Southampton’s actions they may not have reached the play offs and taken away their chance of promotion worth all the gazzilions it supposedly is. |  | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:49 - May 10 with 2536 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 09:49 - May 10 by nix |
Absolutely.
They’re so useless. It’s asking for trouble. If you have a defined punishment then it’s surely easier legally to enforce it (admittedly I am not a lawyer). Whereas if you don’t then it’s surely easier for teams that have been caught to claim unreasonable punishment?
I don’t get why it’s not considered a serious offence. If they didn’t think they were getting an unfair competitive advantage then they wouldn’t be doing it. |
It's difficult to have a set penalty when there isn't much precedent and also when you have to allow for the context:
- Is it a one-off or are there multiple offences?
- Is it a regular league game, a cup tie, or a playoff match?
- If you make it a fine how do you decide what is a fair amount when some clubs in the EFL have massive budgets compared to some of the others?, etc
It would be difficult to have one penalty that covers all cases.
When Leeds did it to Deby there was no specific offence covering this. In the end the fine was £200k.
When Canada's women flew a drone over the New Zealand team training at the 2024 Olympics the penalty was a lot harsher:
- Six point deduction (in tournament football where there's only 9 points to play for)
- $200k fine (which Is a lot for women's football, and in a tournament where there's no financial prize)
- The head coach and 2 other coaches were sent home and banned from football for a year
https://www.espn.co.uk/footbal
So you have two big extremes there. Which level of penalty would you call fair?
I dunno what would be fair, but considering how much winning the Championship playoffs is worth to clubs you would need a really strong penalty to deter clubs from taking the risk of doing what Saints have done.
And there have also been suggestions that Boro are talking to other clubs to see if Saints might have been doing this during the season. If that turns out to be true then who knows what the overall punishment would or could be.
The best outcome here for all parties is that Boro go through and call off the dogs. That gives the EFL time to weigh up the possibilities and probably fudge the issue with a £1m+ fine and maybe also a points deduction for next season.
And if anyone thinks that's excessive then remember how severely we were punished just for breaking the spending rules, which in my view is less serious than what Saints have done here. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:54 - May 10 with 2523 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:39 - May 10 by Hunterhoop |
The EFL are likely desperately hoping Southampton do not beat Boro in the play offs and go up. If they don’t gain promotion they might be able to get away with a fine and/or small points deduction as they won’t have materially benefitted from the cheating.
If they win the play offs, the EFL have a real problem. The other play off sides could launch claims against the EFL that without Southampton’s actions they may not have reached the play offs and taken away their chance of promotion worth all the gazzilions it supposedly is. |
I think you are right about the EFL hoping Saints lose to Boro.
But I think the penalty would have to be really strong to deter teams from trying this again. Heavy fine + big points deduction as a minimum.
If it were proven that Saints had also been cheating in the regular season( a very big if), and might have only made the playoffs as a result of that cheating, then you could be looking as demotion as an appropriate punishment.
I know the EFL is crap at these things but they really need to come down hard and make an example of Saints here, or we will be getting this all the time. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:27 - May 10 with 2474 views | daveB |
You can bet they have done ths more than once, it's blatant cheating, They should get a minimum of a points deduction for the next season they are in this division otherwise what is to stop anyone else doing it |  | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:29 - May 10 with 2474 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:49 - May 10 by KensalT |
It's difficult to have a set penalty when there isn't much precedent and also when you have to allow for the context:
- Is it a one-off or are there multiple offences?
- Is it a regular league game, a cup tie, or a playoff match?
- If you make it a fine how do you decide what is a fair amount when some clubs in the EFL have massive budgets compared to some of the others?, etc
It would be difficult to have one penalty that covers all cases.
When Leeds did it to Deby there was no specific offence covering this. In the end the fine was £200k.
When Canada's women flew a drone over the New Zealand team training at the 2024 Olympics the penalty was a lot harsher:
- Six point deduction (in tournament football where there's only 9 points to play for)
- $200k fine (which Is a lot for women's football, and in a tournament where there's no financial prize)
- The head coach and 2 other coaches were sent home and banned from football for a year
https://www.espn.co.uk/footbal
So you have two big extremes there. Which level of penalty would you call fair?
I dunno what would be fair, but considering how much winning the Championship playoffs is worth to clubs you would need a really strong penalty to deter clubs from taking the risk of doing what Saints have done.
And there have also been suggestions that Boro are talking to other clubs to see if Saints might have been doing this during the season. If that turns out to be true then who knows what the overall punishment would or could be.
The best outcome here for all parties is that Boro go through and call off the dogs. That gives the EFL time to weigh up the possibilities and probably fudge the issue with a £1m+ fine and maybe also a points deduction for next season.
And if anyone thinks that's excessive then remember how severely we were punished just for breaking the spending rules, which in my view is less serious than what Saints have done here. |
Very easy to have a fixed penalty, imho - disqualification, relegation, thirty points deduction etc. |  |
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| Saints charged with spying on 11:48 - May 10 with 2420 views | Dorse |
I hear there has been a marked increase in spying at Heston since Ronnie Edwards took to doing slow-motion, shirtless cool down exercises set to wukka-chukka guitar music. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Saints charged with spying on 11:48 - May 10 with 2419 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:29 - May 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
Very easy to have a fixed penalty, imho - disqualification, relegation, thirty points deduction etc. |
My point is Brian that some games are more valuable than others, which makes it difficult to define a set penalty.
Also there's not much precedent. If the EFL defined a penalty and then the first case that came along was in the PL and they decided a completely different punishment then the EFL would probably respond by rewriting its rules.
Better to wait for the first case to come along and then decide the penalty on the merits of the case.
In terms of Southampton I think they should be made an example of and heavy fines and points deduction would be in order. And if it were proven that they had been doing it through the season then I would be looking at demotion.
Right now I think getting kicked out of the playoffs would be the best thing that could happen to Saints. It would take the story out of the headlines, and if the EFL decided to impose other punishments like fines and points deductions they would be pleading that they have already been punished and any further punishment was excessive and unfair! | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:50 - May 10 with 2412 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:48 - May 10 by Dorse |
I hear there has been a marked increase in spying at Heston since Ronnie Edwards took to doing slow-motion, shirtless cool down exercises set to wukka-chukka guitar music. |
He should get himself setup on Onlyfans. Sounds like he'd make more money like that than we're paying him. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 12:49 - May 10 with 2318 views | davman |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:08 - May 9 by Northernr |
I enjoyed the Hull manager's response to this last night.
“Why do you need to spy? We played already. I know everything about everything. What Middlesbrough will surprise (with?) He will put 14 players? What? Unbelievable. Really?” |
Competive advantage innit?!
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| Saints charged with spying on 13:14 - May 10 with 2251 views | numptydumpty |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:48 - May 10 by Dorse |
I hear there has been a marked increase in spying at Heston since Ronnie Edwards took to doing slow-motion, shirtless cool down exercises set to wukka-chukka guitar music. |
Whatever floats your boat, Dorse... |  |
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| Saints charged with spying on 13:17 - May 10 with 2253 views | nix |
| Saints charged with spying on 11:48 - May 10 by KensalT |
My point is Brian that some games are more valuable than others, which makes it difficult to define a set penalty.
Also there's not much precedent. If the EFL defined a penalty and then the first case that came along was in the PL and they decided a completely different punishment then the EFL would probably respond by rewriting its rules.
Better to wait for the first case to come along and then decide the penalty on the merits of the case.
In terms of Southampton I think they should be made an example of and heavy fines and points deduction would be in order. And if it were proven that they had been doing it through the season then I would be looking at demotion.
Right now I think getting kicked out of the playoffs would be the best thing that could happen to Saints. It would take the story out of the headlines, and if the EFL decided to impose other punishments like fines and points deductions they would be pleading that they have already been punished and any further punishment was excessive and unfair! |
Yes but you say points deduction - but for which season? If it’s this season then it’s no deterrent because they’re already in the playoffs. If it’s a fine then it’s unlikely to be a big enougn deterrent with the prize of the Prem income in comparison. If it’s for next season then they may already have won the playoffs and be in the Prem so you can’t impose it.
It doesn’t matter what the Prem do. The EFL can have their own rules.
If you decide on the merits of the case then you get clubs spinning out the legal case for years - as in Man City which doesn’t help the playoffs for this season.
I agree they should be chucked out of the playoffs but I think that would be difficult and they would probably launch a legal case against the EFL for overly harsh punishment. Then you’re in the right sh*t. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 13:19 - May 10 with 2243 views | nix |
| Saints charged with spying on 10:39 - May 10 by Hunterhoop |
The EFL are likely desperately hoping Southampton do not beat Boro in the play offs and go up. If they don’t gain promotion they might be able to get away with a fine and/or small points deduction as they won’t have materially benefitted from the cheating.
If they win the play offs, the EFL have a real problem. The other play off sides could launch claims against the EFL that without Southampton’s actions they may not have reached the play offs and taken away their chance of promotion worth all the gazzilions it supposedly is. |
Absolutely. It’s a right mess. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 13:58 - May 10 with 2202 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 13:17 - May 10 by nix |
Yes but you say points deduction - but for which season? If it’s this season then it’s no deterrent because they’re already in the playoffs. If it’s a fine then it’s unlikely to be a big enougn deterrent with the prize of the Prem income in comparison. If it’s for next season then they may already have won the playoffs and be in the Prem so you can’t impose it.
It doesn’t matter what the Prem do. The EFL can have their own rules.
If you decide on the merits of the case then you get clubs spinning out the legal case for years - as in Man City which doesn’t help the playoffs for this season.
I agree they should be chucked out of the playoffs but I think that would be difficult and they would probably launch a legal case against the EFL for overly harsh punishment. Then you’re in the right sh*t. |
There's absolutely no reason why Saints should profit from their wrongdoing.
This is a basic principle of English law:
https://lawprof.co/definition/
Saints should have no legal defence against being kicked out of the playoffs.
For that reason I believe Saints should be booted out of the playoffs and that decision needs to be made before the second leg against Boro is due to be played.
In that event heavy points deductions and fines (as a starting point) would be fine for next season. Saints would argue they are being punished more than once but I would say that their punishment needs to be severe enough to discourage anyone from trying this again.
If it can be proven that the Boro thing wasn't a one off and they were systematically doing this then demotion should be on the cards.
But all of that just relates to the club.
What about the individuals involved?
In the Canada women's case three of the coaches were given one year bans.
In the Saints case it seems reasonable to assume the coaches were in on it. But what about the owners and the players. Were they in on it? And how would you go about proving it?
My real problem here is that I don't trust the EFL to do the right thing.
They were happy to make an example of us when we broke FFP, and they repeatedly stuck the boot in to Luton when they were dropping down the leagues. But in recent years they appear to have been soft peddling on wrongdoing, and even negotiating with clubs what penalties they should suffer.
If they go easy on Saints here they will be making a rod for their own back. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 14:14 - May 10 with 2174 views | nix |
| Saints charged with spying on 13:58 - May 10 by KensalT |
There's absolutely no reason why Saints should profit from their wrongdoing.
This is a basic principle of English law:
https://lawprof.co/definition/
Saints should have no legal defence against being kicked out of the playoffs.
For that reason I believe Saints should be booted out of the playoffs and that decision needs to be made before the second leg against Boro is due to be played.
In that event heavy points deductions and fines (as a starting point) would be fine for next season. Saints would argue they are being punished more than once but I would say that their punishment needs to be severe enough to discourage anyone from trying this again.
If it can be proven that the Boro thing wasn't a one off and they were systematically doing this then demotion should be on the cards.
But all of that just relates to the club.
What about the individuals involved?
In the Canada women's case three of the coaches were given one year bans.
In the Saints case it seems reasonable to assume the coaches were in on it. But what about the owners and the players. Were they in on it? And how would you go about proving it?
My real problem here is that I don't trust the EFL to do the right thing.
They were happy to make an example of us when we broke FFP, and they repeatedly stuck the boot in to Luton when they were dropping down the leagues. But in recent years they appear to have been soft peddling on wrongdoing, and even negotiating with clubs what penalties they should suffer.
If they go easy on Saints here they will be making a rod for their own back. |
I agree with all of that. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 18:47 - May 10 with 2024 views | stevec |
Could award Middlesbrough a 3-0 advantage going into the second leg if they got on with it.
Failing that, give them a points deduction carried over until the next time they’re in the EFL which will be soon enough. |  | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 19:01 - May 10 with 2008 views | stowmarketrange |
| Saints charged with spying on 18:47 - May 10 by stevec |
Could award Middlesbrough a 3-0 advantage going into the second leg if they got on with it.
Failing that, give them a points deduction carried over until the next time they’re in the EFL which will be soon enough. |
It depends if they’ve done it consistently over the season.If it’s only against Middlesbrough then a points deduction would be meaningless to Boro if they’ve cheated to win this game. |  | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 19:52 - May 10 with 1968 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 18:47 - May 10 by stevec |
Could award Middlesbrough a 3-0 advantage going into the second leg if they got on with it.
Failing that, give them a points deduction carried over until the next time they’re in the EFL which will be soon enough. |
The rules have been changed since the Leicester business.
Points deductions can now be carried over between the PL and EFL.
If Saints do go up then based on their last season in the PL there's a good chance they would be coming straight back down, so you could hit them with a 100 point deduction in the PL and it probably wouldn't make any difference to them.
What would be interesting is if the Saints won the playoffs and the EFL then decided they should have been expelled and can't go up.
The Saints players would still be expecting their hefty promotion bonuses, and the club wouldn't have the money to pay them.
This is why the EFL should have paused the playoffs and settled the cheating issue first. But they might have had the TV people in their ear reminding them who pays the bills and how much those televised playoff semis are worth. [Post edited 10 May 19:54]
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| Saints charged with spying on 14:00 - May 11 with 1818 views | themodfather |
the efl will do nothing then penalise qpr after realising it is the thing to do
with 2nd legs soon and the final, the league have to act asap | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 15:08 - May 11 with 1740 views | E17hoop |
| Saints charged with spying on 19:52 - May 10 by KensalT |
The rules have been changed since the Leicester business.
Points deductions can now be carried over between the PL and EFL.
If Saints do go up then based on their last season in the PL there's a good chance they would be coming straight back down, so you could hit them with a 100 point deduction in the PL and it probably wouldn't make any difference to them.
What would be interesting is if the Saints won the playoffs and the EFL then decided they should have been expelled and can't go up.
The Saints players would still be expecting their hefty promotion bonuses, and the club wouldn't have the money to pay them.
This is why the EFL should have paused the playoffs and settled the cheating issue first. But they might have had the TV people in their ear reminding them who pays the bills and how much those televised playoff semis are worth. [Post edited 10 May 19:54]
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With players needing to report for World Cup duty, delaying them would have been impossible. |  |
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| Saints charged with spying on 15:27 - May 11 with 1694 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 15:08 - May 11 by E17hoop |
With players needing to report for World Cup duty, delaying them would have been impossible. |
That's a good point.
And to be fair it's probably why the EFL looks to negotiate punishments with offending clubs rather than getting dragged into lengthy litigation that might screw up the (very busy) calendar.
My understanding is that when a club is charged they normally get 14 days to respond. Because of the timeframes in the playoffs the EFL looked to shorten the process.
I don't know if this is true but initial reports said that the EFL charged Southampton on Thursday but told them they wanted their response by Friday. It has been said that Southampton ignored the Friday deadline because they thought it would be better to get the first leg played before they responded. (I have no idea what the benefit of that would be).
What is clear is that Southampton haven't denied the charge.
For me this is a serious enough offence that they should be out of the playoffs if they are guilty. You then have the rest of the summer to decide what additional punishments would be appropriate to impose on them for next season. | | | |
| Saints charged with spying on 15:36 - May 11 with 1675 views | kensalriser |
| Saints charged with spying on 18:47 - May 10 by stevec |
Could award Middlesbrough a 3-0 advantage going into the second leg if they got on with it.
Failing that, give them a points deduction carried over until the next time they’re in the EFL which will be soon enough. |
I was thinking a forfeit for the next match would be appropriate for this specific incident, a punishment that wipes out any advantage they may have gained along with a damages element. |  |
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| Saints charged with spying on 15:44 - May 11 with 1656 views | KensalT |
| Saints charged with spying on 15:36 - May 11 by kensalriser |
I was thinking a forfeit for the next match would be appropriate for this specific incident, a punishment that wipes out any advantage they may have gained along with a damages element. |
Problem is they were caught cheating before the first match, not the second one.
If the EFL tried to change the result of the first leg retrospectively the Saints would drag them into court.
Maybe that's why Southampton didn't respond to the charges before the first leg was played.
Besides, I don't think a 3-0 forfeit would have been sufficient punishment here. We've seen teams turn that around before now. | | | |
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