| Thatcher dead 12:56 - Apr 8 with 82307 views | six_foot_two |
Skynews are are saying Magaret Thatcher has died of a stroke |  | | |  |
| Thatcher dead on 13:44 - Apr 9 with 1890 views | Hayesender |
| Thatcher dead on 13:40 - Apr 9 by WarfieldHoop |
Just a wild stab in the dark but I think it's fair to assume that most of them are the same bunch of no hopers who turn out at every chance they get to swig cheap lager whilst having a ruck for reasons that most of them don't even know. |
They've just interviewed some Pete Docherty lookalike on the new and asked him why he was celebrating her death.
The idiot didn't have a clue as to why he was there, just a leftie sheep |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 9 with 1885 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 10:03 - Apr 9 by Toast_R |
When will this endeavor end?
Can't believe people are still arguing about sh*t that went down over a quarter of a century ago?
What next, the pros and cons of the Triple Entente?
This is fundamentally what is wrong with the world today, people cant let go of their petty differences and bury the past and look for something positive. |
Except we are very much living through the consequences of the neoliberal policies that she and Regan implemented, aren't we? Thatcher may be dead, but Thatcherism is very much alive and kicking.
Amazes me when people say shit like "yeah but was a strong leader" or, "yeah but at least she had a back bone." Fcking great! Well that's ok then, as long as she was confident whilst implementing the devastation of future generations.
And before some moron says "Gordon Brown, wahhh", "Tony Blair", wahhhh". They and every Labour leader since have been Thatcherites too so your moronic point is void. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:52 - Apr 9 with 1860 views | real_loftus |
| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 9 by FDC |
Except we are very much living through the consequences of the neoliberal policies that she and Regan implemented, aren't we? Thatcher may be dead, but Thatcherism is very much alive and kicking.
Amazes me when people say shit like "yeah but was a strong leader" or, "yeah but at least she had a back bone." Fcking great! Well that's ok then, as long as she was confident whilst implementing the devastation of future generations.
And before some moron says "Gordon Brown, wahhh", "Tony Blair", wahhhh". They and every Labour leader since have been Thatcherites too so your moronic point is void. |
Just out of interest FDC, what age group are you? |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 13:53 - Apr 9 with 1853 views | Clive_Anderson |
Gordon Brown was nothing like Thatcher. He yearned to get as many people as possible in the pay of the state in any way possible. He created the tax credits system to get millions of middle class people on benefits and employed over a million more in the public sector whilst increasing state spending massively.
How anyone can think that was like Thatcher is beyond me. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 13:58 - Apr 9 with 1836 views | WarfieldHoop |
| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 9 by FDC |
Except we are very much living through the consequences of the neoliberal policies that she and Regan implemented, aren't we? Thatcher may be dead, but Thatcherism is very much alive and kicking.
Amazes me when people say shit like "yeah but was a strong leader" or, "yeah but at least she had a back bone." Fcking great! Well that's ok then, as long as she was confident whilst implementing the devastation of future generations.
And before some moron says "Gordon Brown, wahhh", "Tony Blair", wahhhh". They and every Labour leader since have been Thatcherites too so your moronic point is void. |
To be honest, I don't get the case against Blair either. I think he was a good PM and a clever politician. His problems were that he took his eye off the ball in his second parliament, got too involved in Iraq and let that complete chimp of a chancellor destroy his party. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:00 - Apr 9 with 1822 views | real_loftus |
I was thinking I'd have a go at reading this thread during my lunch hour. Got bored after 5 pages really.
Lots of bollox from both sides, and plenty of opinions from people who werent around in the 70s/80s.
She did plenty of great things, and plenty of shi'ite things. Not sure celebrating someone's death is particularly classy though.
Carry on. | |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:01 - Apr 9 with 1812 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 13:45 - Apr 9 by FDC |
Except we are very much living through the consequences of the neoliberal policies that she and Regan implemented, aren't we? Thatcher may be dead, but Thatcherism is very much alive and kicking.
Amazes me when people say shit like "yeah but was a strong leader" or, "yeah but at least she had a back bone." Fcking great! Well that's ok then, as long as she was confident whilst implementing the devastation of future generations.
And before some moron says "Gordon Brown, wahhh", "Tony Blair", wahhhh". They and every Labour leader since have been Thatcherites too so your moronic point is void. |
I don't think Thatcherites would have papered the house with millions of immigrants to affect voting trends and ruin the country.
Yours sincerely
A.Moron
(retired) |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:06 - Apr 9 with 1801 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 13:58 - Apr 9 by WarfieldHoop |
To be honest, I don't get the case against Blair either. I think he was a good PM and a clever politician. His problems were that he took his eye off the ball in his second parliament, got too involved in Iraq and let that complete chimp of a chancellor destroy his party. |
Blair was too weak. He should have told Bush to shove it with the Iraq war and was terrified of Brown and never got rid of him. He also meekly surrendered the EU rebate for some CAP reforms which never happened.
Blair had the biggest chance ever to achieve something positive with a huge amount of goodwill, a massive majority, almost unanimous press support and a stable and growing economy. What exactly did he manage? The largest debt and housing bubble of all time and an illegal war that achieved nothing. | | | |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:16 - Apr 9 with 1772 views | Hayesender |
The alternative to Thatcher would have been Michael Foot *shudder* | |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:18 - Apr 9 with 1766 views | TacticalR |
| Thatcher dead on 14:06 - Apr 9 by Clive_Anderson |
Blair was too weak. He should have told Bush to shove it with the Iraq war and was terrified of Brown and never got rid of him. He also meekly surrendered the EU rebate for some CAP reforms which never happened.
Blair had the biggest chance ever to achieve something positive with a huge amount of goodwill, a massive majority, almost unanimous press support and a stable and growing economy. What exactly did he manage? The largest debt and housing bubble of all time and an illegal war that achieved nothing. |
Clive, to save some electrons, can we just summarise your view as that every problem can be explained by the last term in office of the Labour government? |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:21 - Apr 9 with 1755 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 14:16 - Apr 9 by Hayesender |
The alternative to Thatcher would have been Michael Foot *shudder* |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:21 - Apr 9 with 1754 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 14:01 - Apr 9 by TheBlob |
I don't think Thatcherites would have papered the house with millions of immigrants to affect voting trends and ruin the country.
Yours sincerely
A.Moron
(retired) |
I'm not talking about political manoeuvring, i'm talking about the neoliberal project of systemic restructuring of society, and increasing the flexibility of the work force.
To partly answer RealLoftus, I'm young enough to fall into the 'graduate without a future' camp ((c) Paul Mason), and old enough to comfortable qualify as a member of the precariat.
And Clive. There's no way I'm getting drawn into defending party politics, and I know Thatcher's your specialist subject and all, but - if you want to talk about state spending, take a look at this graph. Welfare and state expenditure on social needs is not the be-all-and-end-all of spending deficits. Look at where these peaks are - during Tory governments, and then at the point of the 2008 crash and bank bailouts. But it makes much more political sense to go on and on and on and on and on about welfare costs.
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| Thatcher dead on 14:23 - Apr 9 with 1744 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 14:18 - Apr 9 by TacticalR |
Clive, to save some electrons, can we just summarise your view as that every problem can be explained by the last term in office of the Labour government? |
Nope that's not my position at all.
I think the largest problem at the moment is the state backed monopoly of land and money which allows rent seeking behaviour at the expense of the ordinary person. Neither party seems willing to tackle the problem, the Tories with their NIMBY support and Labour wanting the state to run everything.
The last Labour government were completely shit though. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:27 - Apr 9 with 1728 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 14:21 - Apr 9 by FDC |
I'm not talking about political manoeuvring, i'm talking about the neoliberal project of systemic restructuring of society, and increasing the flexibility of the work force.
To partly answer RealLoftus, I'm young enough to fall into the 'graduate without a future' camp ((c) Paul Mason), and old enough to comfortable qualify as a member of the precariat.
And Clive. There's no way I'm getting drawn into defending party politics, and I know Thatcher's your specialist subject and all, but - if you want to talk about state spending, take a look at this graph. Welfare and state expenditure on social needs is not the be-all-and-end-all of spending deficits. Look at where these peaks are - during Tory governments, and then at the point of the 2008 crash and bank bailouts. But it makes much more political sense to go on and on and on and on and on about welfare costs.
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Well I can't see how untrammelled immigration is not a restructuring of society,add to the "flexibility"of the subsequent unemployed and the strain on resources. | |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:31 - Apr 9 with 1722 views | THEBUSH |
| Thatcher dead on 14:06 - Apr 9 by Clive_Anderson |
Blair was too weak. He should have told Bush to shove it with the Iraq war and was terrified of Brown and never got rid of him. He also meekly surrendered the EU rebate for some CAP reforms which never happened.
Blair had the biggest chance ever to achieve something positive with a huge amount of goodwill, a massive majority, almost unanimous press support and a stable and growing economy. What exactly did he manage? The largest debt and housing bubble of all time and an illegal war that achieved nothing. |
And you think Thatcher would have told Bush to shove it ? |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:34 - Apr 9 with 1711 views | FDC |
| Thatcher dead on 14:27 - Apr 9 by TheBlob |
Well I can't see how untrammelled immigration is not a restructuring of society,add to the "flexibility"of the subsequent unemployed and the strain on resources. |
To clarify Blob, I'm saying that the identifiable policy regime, starting in the 80s with Regan and Thatcher, continues right up to the present moment, where it is experiencing crisis but as yet staggers on. So I'm saying that Labour and Tory alike fall within this ideological arc, varying in flavour and PR at times, but crucially the same.
So when you say that one party is like the other, I largely agree! I mean immigration and outsourcing are fundamental to neoliberalism, right? It displaces the problem - now the enemy are Polish brickies or Chinese factory workers. Globalisation massively disadvantages any kind of the worker organising too of course, which is absolutely fundamental to Thatcherism and the response to the 70s.
Anyway, enough of this - I suspect we won't come to a resolution *this* lunchtime! | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:37 - Apr 9 with 1699 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 14:34 - Apr 9 by FDC |
To clarify Blob, I'm saying that the identifiable policy regime, starting in the 80s with Regan and Thatcher, continues right up to the present moment, where it is experiencing crisis but as yet staggers on. So I'm saying that Labour and Tory alike fall within this ideological arc, varying in flavour and PR at times, but crucially the same.
So when you say that one party is like the other, I largely agree! I mean immigration and outsourcing are fundamental to neoliberalism, right? It displaces the problem - now the enemy are Polish brickies or Chinese factory workers. Globalisation massively disadvantages any kind of the worker organising too of course, which is absolutely fundamental to Thatcherism and the response to the 70s.
Anyway, enough of this - I suspect we won't come to a resolution *this* lunchtime! |
Deal.Would fancy giving the whole mess the elbow for a bit. | |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:40 - Apr 9 with 1693 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 14:21 - Apr 9 by FDC |
I'm not talking about political manoeuvring, i'm talking about the neoliberal project of systemic restructuring of society, and increasing the flexibility of the work force.
To partly answer RealLoftus, I'm young enough to fall into the 'graduate without a future' camp ((c) Paul Mason), and old enough to comfortable qualify as a member of the precariat.
And Clive. There's no way I'm getting drawn into defending party politics, and I know Thatcher's your specialist subject and all, but - if you want to talk about state spending, take a look at this graph. Welfare and state expenditure on social needs is not the be-all-and-end-all of spending deficits. Look at where these peaks are - during Tory governments, and then at the point of the 2008 crash and bank bailouts. But it makes much more political sense to go on and on and on and on and on about welfare costs.
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Er...the peak recently was in 2010 and has fallen since the coalition government came in.
Anyway the trouble with GDP is that it doesn't take debt into account. If a government borrows money to spend then GDP goes up as well.
I'd quite like to see a graph of GDP minus debt in comparison which I think would give a much clearer picture. Governments of all types fiddle the figures as well so it shows GDP growth even when there's no actualy real growth in the economy. For example they use the notional value of imputed rent (the value you could get if you rented your home out for market value) and add that to GDP which is completely absurd. I think that this figure makes up about 10% of GDP these days, so you can see why I don't feel GDP is a particularly good measure.
The problem with rise in government spending in the early 2000s is that it was based on tax receipts that were artificially boosted by a huge rise in personal debt. The actual nominal rise in the government deficit has been huge in the last decade.
Most of welfare spending goes to landlords through housing benefit or into unsustainable pensions. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:42 - Apr 9 with 1686 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 14:31 - Apr 9 by THEBUSH |
And you think Thatcher would have told Bush to shove it ? |
Well it's hard to speculate, but she didn't get involved in any of Reagan's daft adventures in Central America in the 80s, so on the balance of probabilities I'd say that she would have said no. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:42 - Apr 9 with 1685 views | SonofNorfolt |
| Thatcher dead on 14:31 - Apr 9 by THEBUSH |
And you think Thatcher would have told Bush to shove it ? |
& do you think that Blair was given a choice?
Another thing that gets me is the council house fiasco.
The irony of the 'I'm alright Jack' culture, as highlighted by that serial simpleton Hollowayranger.
Council houses were for people that could not afford to buy, then they were virtually given them.
How was this fair?
There is or should never have been a 'right' to buy.
Otherwise me or anyone else should have been given the same rights. |  | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:46 - Apr 9 with 1672 views | TheBlob |
| Thatcher dead on 14:42 - Apr 9 by SonofNorfolt |
& do you think that Blair was given a choice?
Another thing that gets me is the council house fiasco.
The irony of the 'I'm alright Jack' culture, as highlighted by that serial simpleton Hollowayranger.
Council houses were for people that could not afford to buy, then they were virtually given them.
How was this fair?
There is or should never have been a 'right' to buy.
Otherwise me or anyone else should have been given the same rights. |
http://righttobuy.communities.gov.uk/?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=PPC&utm_campa | |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:47 - Apr 9 with 1671 views | Pommyhoop |
It was funny waving imaginary wads of cash at Northern fans and shouting Loadsa Money tho .Do they blame Maggie for that or Harry Enfield? |  |
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| Thatcher dead on 14:47 - Apr 9 with 1669 views | Clive_Anderson |
| Thatcher dead on 14:34 - Apr 9 by FDC |
To clarify Blob, I'm saying that the identifiable policy regime, starting in the 80s with Regan and Thatcher, continues right up to the present moment, where it is experiencing crisis but as yet staggers on. So I'm saying that Labour and Tory alike fall within this ideological arc, varying in flavour and PR at times, but crucially the same.
So when you say that one party is like the other, I largely agree! I mean immigration and outsourcing are fundamental to neoliberalism, right? It displaces the problem - now the enemy are Polish brickies or Chinese factory workers. Globalisation massively disadvantages any kind of the worker organising too of course, which is absolutely fundamental to Thatcherism and the response to the 70s.
Anyway, enough of this - I suspect we won't come to a resolution *this* lunchtime! |
Neoliberalism just means having free markets where people are free to accept or decline a trade. One of it's key ideas is a reduction in the size and scope of the public sector and the state, so to say Labour follow this idea is entirely false.
Also people seem to think that the problem of corporations and the banks having monopolies enforced by the state is a form of neoliberalism, when it couldn't be further from the truth. | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:54 - Apr 9 with 1650 views | THEBUSH |
| Thatcher dead on 14:42 - Apr 9 by Clive_Anderson |
Well it's hard to speculate, but she didn't get involved in any of Reagan's daft adventures in Central America in the 80s, so on the balance of probabilities I'd say that she would have said no. |
Yeah, but Pinochet was a mate of hers, so Reagan had her full backing, that's for sure.
I think she would have gone along with Bush jnr, in Iraq, although as you say it's hard to speculate.
Don't think Blair had much option but to go along with Bush and as you say, was too weak to say NO !! | | | |
| Thatcher dead on 14:55 - Apr 9 with 1643 views | Lambourn |
| Thatcher dead on 14:42 - Apr 9 by SonofNorfolt |
& do you think that Blair was given a choice?
Another thing that gets me is the council house fiasco.
The irony of the 'I'm alright Jack' culture, as highlighted by that serial simpleton Hollowayranger.
Council houses were for people that could not afford to buy, then they were virtually given them.
How was this fair?
There is or should never have been a 'right' to buy.
Otherwise me or anyone else should have been given the same rights. |
Thats a great point. Pay pennies rent and then buy in some cases a house worth £100,000 in those days in ealing area which today are worth half a million for next to nothing. Where were our 50k handouts and help to purchase our homes. |  | | |
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