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Apart from the odd post there are some really good arguments, from both sides may I add.
The thing I dont like about the Unions is the power. Why would the individual not want to hold the power and pass it onto a Union? I negotiate my own salary, pay rise, etc. If I didnt like what was happening, I would leave. I dont understand the Unions and what they offer.
Apart from the odd post there are some really good arguments, from both sides may I add.
The thing I dont like about the Unions is the power. Why would the individual not want to hold the power and pass it onto a Union? I negotiate my own salary, pay rise, etc. If I didnt like what was happening, I would leave. I dont understand the Unions and what they offer.
Gloucs, I'm a leftie (or a liberal, I'm not sure of the criteria anymore!), and I have never joined a union, and I distrust union excess as much as I distrust employer excess, but their importance to the working and middle classes can't be underestimated.
I'm lucky enough that I can negotiate for myself as are you from what you say. Industry has always abused workers, however, and any study of working and social conditions from the Industrial Revolution onwards would have to acknowledge that unions have been the most important factor in the fight for safe and fair working conditions.
I have never had to reach for the union card but I have no doubt that my life is infinitely better for the existence both now and throughout history of labour unions.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Gloucs, I'm a leftie (or a liberal, I'm not sure of the criteria anymore!), and I have never joined a union, and I distrust union excess as much as I distrust employer excess, but their importance to the working and middle classes can't be underestimated.
I'm lucky enough that I can negotiate for myself as are you from what you say. Industry has always abused workers, however, and any study of working and social conditions from the Industrial Revolution onwards would have to acknowledge that unions have been the most important factor in the fight for safe and fair working conditions.
I have never had to reach for the union card but I have no doubt that my life is infinitely better for the existence both now and throughout history of labour unions.
But surely in this day and age with have HR and solicitors that can sort out most of these issues? I appreciate what the world used to look like but I cant see that we need them anymore. I also despise being held to ransom by striking unions.
My wife is a teacher, she is in a Union - much to my disgust - but its a non striking union.
But surely in this day and age with have HR and solicitors that can sort out most of these issues? I appreciate what the world used to look like but I cant see that we need them anymore. I also despise being held to ransom by striking unions.
My wife is a teacher, she is in a Union - much to my disgust - but its a non striking union.
A lot depends on the industry and on the company, but a functioning government in search of fairness in the private sector can use unions as part of that search, as much as they can use Employers' federations. Engage with the union before fiscal and monetary changes and those changes become easier to steer past parliament and the electorate.
Unions are yet another social tool that can and should be respected and utilised for the good of all.
HR and solicitors can't get me as an individual fair pay. One works for the employer, the other has to work within incredibly narrow parameters. Unions and Employers federations can help the government look after the macroeconomics. They're both invaluable.
"The opposite of love, after all, is not hate, but indifference."
Thanks to Thatcher ? Ffs that was over 30 years ago and yes I know what the fck I am talking about. 26 years in transport has taught me a thing or two.
So nothing that happened 30 years ago can influence today. I think the boys that fought in that little skirmish in the 39-45 season may disagree. And 40 years as a trade union member has taught me a thing or 2 as well, no offence.
Apart from the odd post there are some really good arguments, from both sides may I add.
The thing I dont like about the Unions is the power. Why would the individual not want to hold the power and pass it onto a Union? I negotiate my own salary, pay rise, etc. If I didnt like what was happening, I would leave. I dont understand the Unions and what they offer.
Read my first post again, you might get it a bit more.
Margaret Thatcher closed 22 of Britains mines. Harold Wilson closed 93 in less time but was a man and Labour so that was ok.
The mines that were closed in the 60's and into the 70's were all exhausted. They had either been completely worked out or the coal left was impossible to reach at that point. The miners affected moved to other pits that were open and functioning well. Thatcher, by contrast, closed down mines that were capable of producing for decades if not hundreds of years to come.
I've said this already on here, you can argue that these industries were failing and needed either a revamp or phasing out. But you cannot in any way shape or form argue that the way she went about it was right. For Thatcher everything was black or white, you were with her or against her, and she took great glee in viciously and vindictively destroying communities that did not and would never support her.
Yes, I was a shop steward on and off over the years having worked for the same company for 35 years. I've watched a shop floor go from 200 people manufacturing goods to the 19 people that we have now just working in service which we basically are now. We were obviously very powerful when we wanted to be early on but now with just 13 of us in the union still we are now toothless regards wages, but we've still over the years stopped them putting our hours up from 37- and-a-half to 40, which we went on strike for in '78 and won, along with a large pay rise ( which didn't hurt them one bit with a 6 million pound year profit at that time ).
We still have full sick pay for 52 weeks, which they tried to take away about 6 years ago when Yanks took us over, we still have our 3 days extra holiday due to service, which they wanted. The 187 that have gone over the years haven't gone because we fought for what management would consider " luxuries " but because manufacturing was moved to Germany when we algamated with them and it was cheaper to make UK workers redundant than German. Over the years my job has been saved many times with union backing for variuos reasons, I also get 24 hour free advice on practically any legal matter, cheap car/house insurance, accident claim support, etc. We've just got the antiquated factory heating system upgraded by refusing to start work until the temparature reached it's required height. Yes , in the 70s the militants did have too much power and abused it, but in the main union reps like myself always tried to look at both sides, and most times it worked. I'm assuming from a lot of anti-union comments on here that they tar all union members with the same brush or have been lucky enough to never need help from a union, or probably in most cases never been in one. Unfortunately there are a few on here so blinkered by there Thatcherite views that are earning fantasic salaries ( and good luck to them they've obviously earnt it ), that they still have the I'm all right Jack, f* ck the shop floor peasents attitude that opitomised her reign and that we are suffering for now by work places being ruled by fear again and dark age conditions.
An interesting insight and understandable that you and your union fight for what they see as important rights. But if you break down each paragraph you get to realise why work was transferred from UK to Germany, as you stated yourself 'German workers were cheaper than UK workers'.
Turning things around, lets say you took the 40 hour week with no extra pay for 2.5 hours, stuck with the antiquated heating system, accepted parity in wages/costs with the aforementioned Germans, your Company may well have now been employing nearer the 200 staff than the present number in the teens.
I know its hard to take, feeling that you are bowing down to the Employers, but surely, if it saved at least some of the workers from unemployment its a better thing? I suspect most workers would prefer to have a job paying slightly less than they wanted than no job at all, I know that sounds harsh but sadly, that is the real world. There is always a feeling that bosses are coining it,sure there are those who take fat salaries and deserve to be slated, but the reality in most cases is they are usually thinking of ways to keep the firm profitable. As soon as it becomes unprofitable, that's when the jobs and indeed whole firms disappear, surely a few concessions to this is a minor price to pay.
Truth is, the union leaders weren't that bothered about their workers, most of them in it from a political angle, particularly back in the 60-80's. My father was a Commie turned Tory, heavily involved in the Union movement back in the late 50's. He genuinely cared for the workers he represented but over time sensed that their needs were secondary to the political fight the Union leaders were instigating. As he used to say, the only difference between a Tory and a Socialist is a Tory admits he's out for himself'.
An interesting insight and understandable that you and your union fight for what they see as important rights. But if you break down each paragraph you get to realise why work was transferred from UK to Germany, as you stated yourself 'German workers were cheaper than UK workers'.
Turning things around, lets say you took the 40 hour week with no extra pay for 2.5 hours, stuck with the antiquated heating system, accepted parity in wages/costs with the aforementioned Germans, your Company may well have now been employing nearer the 200 staff than the present number in the teens.
I know its hard to take, feeling that you are bowing down to the Employers, but surely, if it saved at least some of the workers from unemployment its a better thing? I suspect most workers would prefer to have a job paying slightly less than they wanted than no job at all, I know that sounds harsh but sadly, that is the real world. There is always a feeling that bosses are coining it,sure there are those who take fat salaries and deserve to be slated, but the reality in most cases is they are usually thinking of ways to keep the firm profitable. As soon as it becomes unprofitable, that's when the jobs and indeed whole firms disappear, surely a few concessions to this is a minor price to pay.
Truth is, the union leaders weren't that bothered about their workers, most of them in it from a political angle, particularly back in the 60-80's. My father was a Commie turned Tory, heavily involved in the Union movement back in the late 50's. He genuinely cared for the workers he represented but over time sensed that their needs were secondary to the political fight the Union leaders were instigating. As he used to say, the only difference between a Tory and a Socialist is a Tory admits he's out for himself'.
If you read, I didn't say Germans were cheaper to employ, I said UK workers were cheaper to be made redundant, completely different thing . Also believe me it wouldn't have made any difference to the manning levels if we had accepted the longer hours as most of the 187 lost were gone before they tried to implement it.
Apart from the odd post there are some really good arguments, from both sides may I add.
The thing I dont like about the Unions is the power. Why would the individual not want to hold the power and pass it onto a Union? I negotiate my own salary, pay rise, etc. If I didnt like what was happening, I would leave. I dont understand the Unions and what they offer.
do you get bank holidays ,sick pay ,pensions,annual leave,all because unions. now i was shop steward for 20yrs at the bbc and we didnt go on strike that much,most the proplems was when the managers try to do what they want with no regards for workers rights, now in the 70s things did get out of control and thatcher knew she had the public and a lot of union members on her side as well. to be honest we got the laws we deserved after the excesses. But i still think the funeral is way over the top what did she do that blair and major didnt they both won wars do they get the same funeral as her,she was not that great. also i think her policys have an effect now esp housing.
The mines that were closed in the 60's and into the 70's were all exhausted. They had either been completely worked out or the coal left was impossible to reach at that point. The miners affected moved to other pits that were open and functioning well. Thatcher, by contrast, closed down mines that were capable of producing for decades if not hundreds of years to come.
I've said this already on here, you can argue that these industries were failing and needed either a revamp or phasing out. But you cannot in any way shape or form argue that the way she went about it was right. For Thatcher everything was black or white, you were with her or against her, and she took great glee in viciously and vindictively destroying communities that did not and would never support her.
You can argue that she was right as given no choice by Scargil and the union actions.
do you get bank holidays ,sick pay ,pensions,annual leave,all because unions. now i was shop steward for 20yrs at the bbc and we didnt go on strike that much,most the proplems was when the managers try to do what they want with no regards for workers rights, now in the 70s things did get out of control and thatcher knew she had the public and a lot of union members on her side as well. to be honest we got the laws we deserved after the excesses. But i still think the funeral is way over the top what did she do that blair and major didnt they both won wars do they get the same funeral as her,she was not that great. also i think her policys have an effect now esp housing.
Don't moan about your gas and water and electricity prices because thats one of her many legacies. The public gets what the public wants.
What a lovely family of arms dealers with close links to genocidal dictators. She HATED football fans and many other things you would consider working class. The far right on here probably still get a semi over her war crime of sinking the Belgrano. She got mugged off on Nationwide by a (commoner) about that. C.U.N.T (deceased)
HA HA HA
HA Some people are so thick that they actually believe that being anti Thatcher you must be a labour supporter or a communist? No...most are just decent humans that like to see justice for the suffering that certain individuals throughout history have caused. Vile human being.
"they actually believe that being anti Thatcher you must be a labour supporter or a communist?"
There have been some great and well reasoned comments from both sides on this thread but it's this that has saddened me most. I too got accused of having a political agenda when I don't. People too quick to make assumptions, jump to conclusions, brand someone a 'lefty', just because they didn't like her. I'm no lefty (or a righty) but I just didn't like her. I was 12 when she came into power and 23 when she left, a defining time in anyones life and life was tough then. That's my opinion and I'm entitled to it without the need to be abused.
You can argue that she was right as given no choice by Scargil and the union actions.
You can argue that if you like but you'd be wrong. Scargill was a pr*ck who put his own ideology ahead of the interest of his members. But the attack on the mines and the communities around them was planned well in advance. There is absolutely no doubting that, the evidence is conclusive. Scargill and his acolytes led the NUM membership into a trap, but a trap it most certainly was. She destroyed people's lives because she had no care for them or even interest in them. They weren't her people so they were expendable.
do you get bank holidays ,sick pay ,pensions,annual leave,all because unions. now i was shop steward for 20yrs at the bbc and we didnt go on strike that much,most the proplems was when the managers try to do what they want with no regards for workers rights, now in the 70s things did get out of control and thatcher knew she had the public and a lot of union members on her side as well. to be honest we got the laws we deserved after the excesses. But i still think the funeral is way over the top what did she do that blair and major didnt they both won wars do they get the same funeral as her,she was not that great. also i think her policys have an effect now esp housing.
There's nothing wrong with the concept of unions, but there's no doubting that they had an agenda in those days other than getting the best deal for their workers. Once they become too politicised they stop doing what they were designed for and become a tool for a particular viewpoint.
The Germans had more reasonable union leaders and that allowed more of their heavy industry to survive. Ours were going on strike if they didn't like the colour of the mugs their tea was served in.
You can argue that if you like but you'd be wrong. Scargill was a pr*ck who put his own ideology ahead of the interest of his members. But the attack on the mines and the communities around them was planned well in advance. There is absolutely no doubting that, the evidence is conclusive. Scargill and his acolytes led the NUM membership into a trap, but a trap it most certainly was. She destroyed people's lives because she had no care for them or even interest in them. They weren't her people so they were expendable.
Apart from stopping subsidising dying industries, what did she do that could be described as destroying peoples lives?
I've never understood why low paid workers from one industry should pay to keep better paid workers in a job that was making huge losses.
There were times when it appeared she was a robot,completely devoid of emotion. One amusing thing was the dichotomy of the feminists.Trying to condemn her right wing politics or uphold and laud her sexual status.
Ow we larfed at the "dinner parties" we were forced to attend.
then pigged out on chips on the way home.........mmmmmm....chips......true democracy........
Apart from stopping subsidising dying industries, what did she do that could be described as destroying peoples lives?
I've never understood why low paid workers from one industry should pay to keep better paid workers in a job that was making huge losses.
What do you think is happening now with the financial sector? Subsidised to the point that it wouldn't exist otherwise. Or farming perhaps? Or the utilities? Or the railways?
What do you think is happening now with the financial sector? Subsidised to the point that it wouldn't exist otherwise. Or farming perhaps? Or the utilities? Or the railways?
All these things are subsidised via taxation.
"What do you think is happening now with the financial sector? "
Well exactly bad banks should have been allowed to fail, a bit like Barings and BCCI were allowed to in the 90s. It was Labour who bailed them out and essentially nationalised the banking system. I doubt Thatcher would have given them billions of taxpayers money.
Farming makes some sense because you want the country to have some food security in an emergency. Utilities and railways aren't a free market because you need government permission to build them.
What do you think is happening now with the financial sector? Subsidised to the point that it wouldn't exist otherwise. Or farming perhaps? Or the utilities? Or the railways?
There's nothing wrong with the concept of unions, but there's no doubting that they had an agenda in those days other than getting the best deal for their workers. Once they become too politicised they stop doing what they were designed for and become a tool for a particular viewpoint.
The Germans had more reasonable union leaders and that allowed more of their heavy industry to survive. Ours were going on strike if they didn't like the colour of the mugs their tea was served in.
It's impossible to have a reasonable debate when people insist on writing crap like this last line.
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