| Not Football Related... 08:37 - Aug 17 with 2219 views | dale1968 |
So yesterday another Police Officer was Killed whilst on duty.
We sadly hear of events like this more and more often nowadays.
Drugs and Knife Crime are also at epedemic levels
So my question is should Capital & Corporate punishment be reinstated? |  |
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| Not Football Related... on 10:08 - Aug 17 with 2092 views | rochdale_ranger |
No I don’t think it works. I think prisons need more funding and better training opportunities for prisoners should be put in place for prisoners for rehabilitation purposes. I might also get slammed for saying this but with regards to knife crime I think the black community need to have a sit down and have a word with themselves if they value the lives of their young men. [Post edited 17 Aug 2019 10:15]
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| Not Football Related... on 12:22 - Aug 17 with 1969 views | pioneer |
| Not Football Related... on 10:08 - Aug 17 by rochdale_ranger |
No I don’t think it works. I think prisons need more funding and better training opportunities for prisoners should be put in place for prisoners for rehabilitation purposes. I might also get slammed for saying this but with regards to knife crime I think the black community need to have a sit down and have a word with themselves if they value the lives of their young men. [Post edited 17 Aug 2019 10:15]
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we have never been clear on what we are trying to achieve through the judiciary. is the primary objective protecting the public from risk of harm, or punishing the perpetrators of violent crime or rehabilitation. Each requires different responses. As a result we end up achieving none of them. |  | | |
| Not Football Related... on 13:10 - Aug 17 with 1890 views | mingthemerciless |
I'm up for " Corporate " punishment. Nothing like enough bankers went to jail after the crisis.
Regarding capital punishment - History tells us it wasn't a good idea. Too many mistakes were made and afterwards it was too late to put them right.
I don't know much about the tragic death of the young PC but from what I've read I'd be surprised if a charge of murder was brought when the case goes to trial. | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 13:17 - Aug 17 with 1874 views | EllDale |
I was always told that it is the CERTAINTY of punishment that deters criminals not the POSSIBILITY of being caught.
In other words, if you think you're going to get nicked it puts you off.
There were far too many mistakes made when capital punishment was in force in this country. In fact, too many after it was abolished. Anyone remember Stefan Kiszko? | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 19:24 - Aug 17 with 1775 views | ArthurDaley |
At one time I was firmly in the hang em brigade. But look back over history and the number of cases of a miscarriage of justice. Like Stefan Kiszko, He couldn't produce semen but semen was found at the scene. The prosecution knew this but still went a head with the case.
Further back Timothy Evens was hung for a crime committed by his landlord John Christie . ( 10 Rillington Place )
The Birmingham 6, The scientist who did the forensics should have used 0.5 % of some solution but used ( I think ) 1.0 % which showed they have been handling explosives .
Sadly you cant bring back a innocent dead person. |  |
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| Not Football Related... on 20:18 - Aug 17 with 1690 views | Cleedale |
Cripes I could write reams on this and guess others could too.
When my dad moved from Rochdale - he happily worked on the fish market until the Council decided big changes were afoot - and as most know probably know ended up on the east coast as he had a chance to buy a business off a distant relative that was an absolute disaster. It actually cemented my love of The Dale from an early age and despite lots of pee-taking the jokes have kind-of reversed round without very much affection either way.
Grimsby's a rough town and tough too, but then probably not that different from many other towns and cities. Thankfully I don't live there but historical docks jobs etc.and definite blinkered isolation hardly evokes middle-England market townishness.
Within a year of our move there was a brutal murder in the shop next door. The poor lady, a seamstress, had been stabbed 17 times with a double bladed knife. As an 8-9 year old it didn't really hit home as the passtime TV of the day was Doctor Who, Man From Uncle and so death or killings seemed...the norm...at least in a small child's world.
The effect on my parents was absolutely devastating and it was only after many years of reflection of this horror that I could begin to feel the hurt and pain that reverberates throughout so many when these sort of tragic events occur.
In trying not to bore anyone too much, my own opinion is that it's all too late in this country even though we generally have a very low murder rate as with most of north and western Europe. But compare us to the USA and then go further and look at Mexico, the latter of which has something like 100,000 missing/presumed dead in the last 14/15 years.
Drugs/gangs/organised crime has grown FAST, everywhere and unfortunately it aint stopping any time soon. Deterrents seem pointless when you have atrocities like the poor Police ladies murders in east M/C/R and remember the young lad who shot the Indian man near to the Arndale on Boxing Day a few years back.
Quite happy for others views but I don't think there's an answer. Culture and society has changed and putting that genie back in the bottle...well please tell me how? | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 21:13 - Aug 17 with 1594 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Not Football Related... on 20:18 - Aug 17 by Cleedale |
Cripes I could write reams on this and guess others could too.
When my dad moved from Rochdale - he happily worked on the fish market until the Council decided big changes were afoot - and as most know probably know ended up on the east coast as he had a chance to buy a business off a distant relative that was an absolute disaster. It actually cemented my love of The Dale from an early age and despite lots of pee-taking the jokes have kind-of reversed round without very much affection either way.
Grimsby's a rough town and tough too, but then probably not that different from many other towns and cities. Thankfully I don't live there but historical docks jobs etc.and definite blinkered isolation hardly evokes middle-England market townishness.
Within a year of our move there was a brutal murder in the shop next door. The poor lady, a seamstress, had been stabbed 17 times with a double bladed knife. As an 8-9 year old it didn't really hit home as the passtime TV of the day was Doctor Who, Man From Uncle and so death or killings seemed...the norm...at least in a small child's world.
The effect on my parents was absolutely devastating and it was only after many years of reflection of this horror that I could begin to feel the hurt and pain that reverberates throughout so many when these sort of tragic events occur.
In trying not to bore anyone too much, my own opinion is that it's all too late in this country even though we generally have a very low murder rate as with most of north and western Europe. But compare us to the USA and then go further and look at Mexico, the latter of which has something like 100,000 missing/presumed dead in the last 14/15 years.
Drugs/gangs/organised crime has grown FAST, everywhere and unfortunately it aint stopping any time soon. Deterrents seem pointless when you have atrocities like the poor Police ladies murders in east M/C/R and remember the young lad who shot the Indian man near to the Arndale on Boxing Day a few years back.
Quite happy for others views but I don't think there's an answer. Culture and society has changed and putting that genie back in the bottle...well please tell me how? |
Great post. I worked in Grimsby around 15 years ago or so and it’s a tough place, I was there yards away in a bank when a young pregnant lass was killed by someone who was “mentally ill” and have had the “pleasure” of meeting Ian Huntley’s other half, albeit in her new identity, after the bank I worked for had to open an account in her new name.
I knew Leslie molseeds dad very well and also the lad who got killed in the subway near the brickcroft used to drink in our pub. The effects live forever with families while these scum sit in prison, with sky and Xbox and all the drugs they want.
Anyway, for me the likes of sutcliffe, Cregan, Huntley deserve to die, ideally ASAP, as the acts were pre meditated and guilt is without doubt. Obviously non pre meditated acts are different but, when it is doubtless they are guilty and the murder is pre planned, sod them! |  |
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| Not Football Related... on 21:14 - Aug 17 with 1594 views | finberty |
When capital punishment was abolished from the statute books, the agreed replacement was full life terms.
Nowadays, life can mean 12 years or less.
If life actually meant life, it at least ensures one culprit pays the full price.
I understand there is a concern that Britain has a higher per capita prison population. So? We don't have national service to straighten people out. We are a nation wherein some believe all problems are solved by violence. Some have no proper life role models. If new prisons need to be built, fair enough. Make them bleak. Make them austere. Make them places where people would fear to be sent to.
Until then, let's not pretend we are tough on crime, or on its causes. |  | | |
| Not Football Related... on 21:41 - Aug 17 with 1568 views | rochdale_ranger |
| Not Football Related... on 21:13 - Aug 17 by Thacks_Rabbits |
Great post. I worked in Grimsby around 15 years ago or so and it’s a tough place, I was there yards away in a bank when a young pregnant lass was killed by someone who was “mentally ill” and have had the “pleasure” of meeting Ian Huntley’s other half, albeit in her new identity, after the bank I worked for had to open an account in her new name.
I knew Leslie molseeds dad very well and also the lad who got killed in the subway near the brickcroft used to drink in our pub. The effects live forever with families while these scum sit in prison, with sky and Xbox and all the drugs they want.
Anyway, for me the likes of sutcliffe, Cregan, Huntley deserve to die, ideally ASAP, as the acts were pre meditated and guilt is without doubt. Obviously non pre meditated acts are different but, when it is doubtless they are guilty and the murder is pre planned, sod them! |
Is that lad who got killed in the subway the one who got killed over drugs? | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 22:43 - Aug 17 with 1517 views | Thacks_Rabbits |
| Not Football Related... on 21:41 - Aug 17 by rochdale_ranger |
Is that lad who got killed in the subway the one who got killed over drugs? |
Yes, ranger and I am not saying he was in the right but never deserved that. | |
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| Not Football Related... on 23:00 - Aug 17 with 1503 views | SuddenLad |
| Not Football Related... on 21:13 - Aug 17 by Thacks_Rabbits |
Great post. I worked in Grimsby around 15 years ago or so and it’s a tough place, I was there yards away in a bank when a young pregnant lass was killed by someone who was “mentally ill” and have had the “pleasure” of meeting Ian Huntley’s other half, albeit in her new identity, after the bank I worked for had to open an account in her new name.
I knew Leslie molseeds dad very well and also the lad who got killed in the subway near the brickcroft used to drink in our pub. The effects live forever with families while these scum sit in prison, with sky and Xbox and all the drugs they want.
Anyway, for me the likes of sutcliffe, Cregan, Huntley deserve to die, ideally ASAP, as the acts were pre meditated and guilt is without doubt. Obviously non pre meditated acts are different but, when it is doubtless they are guilty and the murder is pre planned, sod them! |
You certainly won't have to wait long for Peter Sutcliffe to meet his Maker. Cregan will never see the light of day again. Huntley will likely be in his 70's before he tastes any kind of freedom, even if it is granted. They all should have been on the end of a rope. Indisputable guilt, |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Not Football Related... on 23:17 - Aug 17 with 1484 views | rochdale_ranger |
| Not Football Related... on 22:43 - Aug 17 by Thacks_Rabbits |
Yes, ranger and I am not saying he was in the right but never deserved that. |
No not at all. I was on a building site a few years ago and I got friendly with one of the labourers on site. Turns out it was the guy that did it. Couldn’t believe it when I got told. People really don’t wear labels. | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 23:18 - Aug 17 with 1482 views | dale1968 |
Some fantastic responses to the original question.
However do we as a country have enough in our Judiciary, in terms of sentencing powers have enough of a detterent to perhaps make people think twice about commiting crime? | |
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| Not Football Related... on 10:13 - Aug 18 with 1289 views | Cleedale |
| Not Football Related... on 23:18 - Aug 17 by dale1968 |
Some fantastic responses to the original question.
However do we as a country have enough in our Judiciary, in terms of sentencing powers have enough of a detterent to perhaps make people think twice about commiting crime? |
Probably not.
There's already been mention on this thread of a lack of deterrent but just look at football.
When (usually) our supporters travel abroad - and lets face it we do have this reputation - there's quite often shock that European police don't take lightly to our antics. When Man U travelled to Moscow 'they were warned'. Was there any hooliganism? No.
Russia's a great example of stamping authority at the mo. - just look at how they're banging up students who want to protest against allegedly corrupt elections. BUT, do we want to be like that? No.
Likewise you aint going to challenge French or Spanish police etc. - they just don't mess around.
Here, we're continually being daitribed with lack of police numbers - rightly or wrongly. We've also created massive liberalism and yet seriously subdued the ordinary thoughts of ordinary folk who just want an opinion. That's creating anger and respect's gone out the window.
On top of that I know of grandparents who are releasing equity from their homes to get their grandchildren on the property ladder. Fine, if that's what they want to do, but a lot of these offspring are 'expecting' these windfalls. Imo this too is creating more and more love of money, materialism and a 'type' of person (generally) that doesn't give two-hoots about his neighbour.
Because of the last para (only partly) I think society is seriously fractured and fragmented; unless you want to play along with The Emperor's New Clothes. People do have that choice. Everywhere in the world we have most leaders giving the same spiel and it's heading in a very serious direction.
To your latest response I'd say the courts have guidelines, the prisons are full, there are no new builds and many just come back out or with 'suspended sentences' to do the same. | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 10:57 - Aug 18 with 1240 views | SuddenLad |
If the Police here acted and behaved in the same way that Russian/Spanish/French/German police behaved and used the same kind of equipment, (tear gas, water cannons, whip batons etc..) to deal with football hooliganism, there would be a public outcry, followed by a 2 year enquiry into who ordered it, who was there, - the 'Queue here for compensation' brigade would be millionaires within 6 months and nothing would change.
We need to stop being dictated to by the thugs and deal with them in a way that deters them from inciting or repeating civil disorder.
Keep an eye on the current situation in Hong Kong for a forthcoming exhibition in dealing with threats of mob violence. If that had been on mainland China, it would have been 'sorted' a long time ago, probably with a total news blackout and another list of 'missing people'. As it is, the eyes of the Western world are watching like hawks and restraint is being (rightly) shown.
Thankfully, we are a million miles away from that sort of horrific stuff, but we are still too lax when dealing with mob violence.
Water cannons should be deployed where/when necessary, or at least the option should be available and make it known that they are to be deployed where necessary. Anyone wishing to remain after the warning is given, can have a free soaking at the expense of the suppliers. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Not Football Related... on 11:11 - Aug 18 with 1226 views | rochdale_ranger |
| Not Football Related... on 10:57 - Aug 18 by SuddenLad |
If the Police here acted and behaved in the same way that Russian/Spanish/French/German police behaved and used the same kind of equipment, (tear gas, water cannons, whip batons etc..) to deal with football hooliganism, there would be a public outcry, followed by a 2 year enquiry into who ordered it, who was there, - the 'Queue here for compensation' brigade would be millionaires within 6 months and nothing would change.
We need to stop being dictated to by the thugs and deal with them in a way that deters them from inciting or repeating civil disorder.
Keep an eye on the current situation in Hong Kong for a forthcoming exhibition in dealing with threats of mob violence. If that had been on mainland China, it would have been 'sorted' a long time ago, probably with a total news blackout and another list of 'missing people'. As it is, the eyes of the Western world are watching like hawks and restraint is being (rightly) shown.
Thankfully, we are a million miles away from that sort of horrific stuff, but we are still too lax when dealing with mob violence.
Water cannons should be deployed where/when necessary, or at least the option should be available and make it known that they are to be deployed where necessary. Anyone wishing to remain after the warning is given, can have a free soaking at the expense of the suppliers. |
Why on earth would you support the totalitarian Chinese government over protesters who don’t want their liberty and freedom taken away. If the hierarchy at Rochdale football club adopted the same attitude you would be fooked especially after all the state secrets you’ve revealed about Bottomleys shagging antics. | | | |
| Not Football Related... on 13:36 - Aug 18 with 1155 views | SuddenLad |
| Not Football Related... on 11:11 - Aug 18 by rochdale_ranger |
Why on earth would you support the totalitarian Chinese government over protesters who don’t want their liberty and freedom taken away. If the hierarchy at Rochdale football club adopted the same attitude you would be fooked especially after all the state secrets you’ve revealed about Bottomleys shagging antics. |
What a moronic response. WTF are you talking about ??
I do not, in any way, support the stance or the intentions of the Chinese state. What they are trying to impose on the citizens of Hong Kong is not acceptable on any level. The protests are perfectly understandable, given the consequences they face if the law is enacted. | |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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