| Lotto News on 18:02 - May 25 with 2595 views | Brierls |
| Lotto News on 14:55 - May 25 by Reedy |
I think if your agent your “in the know” |
That was my point. Chaff is an agent and applied common sense to the figures and Goldbond/Dale Lotto in general. |  | |  |
| Lotto News on 18:09 - May 25 with 2584 views | judd |
| Lotto News on 18:02 - May 25 by Brierls |
That was my point. Chaff is an agent and applied common sense to the figures and Goldbond/Dale Lotto in general. |
So that's what changed your mind again did it?
You remember posting on Facebook that you do not agree with the decision? |  |
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| Lotto News on 18:19 - May 25 with 2561 views | Reedy |
| Lotto News on 18:02 - May 25 by Brierls |
That was my point. Chaff is an agent and applied common sense to the figures and Goldbond/Dale Lotto in general. |
So do you also agree with the figures about half signing up via direct debit and it being considerably worse for the club financially? |  |
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| Lotto News on 18:27 - May 25 with 2551 views | Brierls |
| Lotto News on 17:19 - May 25 by blackdogblue |
Irony..
The expression of one's meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
Explain how what I put to Ray was in any way funny, forceable against you or falls in the above definition?
What I said was don’t rise to things that are said on here in the definition of taking something personally and reacting. Holding your hands up and not realising the stressful situation people furloughed are in does not cover from the fact you said it in the first place...
Then pure arrogance to suggest he should read it properly before calling you out...
In your second reply was there no hint of an apology for the first statement however corrected, posts like yours I why I get warnings for what I say on here so I will not post what I really think apart from, hold you hands up again, man up & apologise for getting it wrong in the first place please, it’s the decent thing to do.. |
You said “don’t rise to him...” which is rich given you have form for having posts removed for trying to get a rise out of people.
I apologised to Ray for saying that he was responsible for the poor comms and/or decision around scrapping the agent collection rounds. I issued that apology as soon as Judd reminded me about club staff being furloughed. Ray couldn’t and shouldn’t have been responsible for the decision or the poor comms. Ray himself went on to say he wasn’t responsible, asking me to explain how he could have been responsible. I’d already said he couldn’t have been.
As for your ask...with all due respect, I made a genuine apology to Ray before he’d even posted. | | | |
| Lotto News on 18:44 - May 25 with 2511 views | dawlishdale |
| Lotto News on 18:27 - May 25 by Brierls |
You said “don’t rise to him...” which is rich given you have form for having posts removed for trying to get a rise out of people.
I apologised to Ray for saying that he was responsible for the poor comms and/or decision around scrapping the agent collection rounds. I issued that apology as soon as Judd reminded me about club staff being furloughed. Ray couldn’t and shouldn’t have been responsible for the decision or the poor comms. Ray himself went on to say he wasn’t responsible, asking me to explain how he could have been responsible. I’d already said he couldn’t have been.
As for your ask...with all due respect, I made a genuine apology to Ray before he’d even posted. |
Good for you Mr Cummings | | | |
| Lotto News on 18:56 - May 25 with 2479 views | Brierls |
| Lotto News on 18:09 - May 25 by judd |
So that's what changed your mind again did it?
You remember posting on Facebook that you do not agree with the decision? |
Genuinely, no I don’t remember posting on Facebook that I don’t agree with the decision. I posted in reply to somebody implying that it was a “back pocket job” from the board, pointing out that it would be easier to fiddle cash collections than Direct Debits. It’s nonsense.
To be clear, Facebook post or not, I actually don’t agree with decision. It seems an own goal financially and in goodwill, but I am not in possession of that facts and figures so there is an emphasis on ‘seems’.
My original reply on the thread was putting it out there that an agent led Goldbond/Dale Lotto had maybe run its course. I was saying that maybe, when stripped back, it doesn’t make the club enough money. Between you and Reedy, you’ve effectively said that DB has got rid of the an agent led Goldbond/Dale Lotto because he wanted to, and it’s cost the club in the region of £50K per year. | | | |
| Lotto News on 18:57 - May 25 with 2476 views | Brierls |
| Lotto News on 18:44 - May 25 by dawlishdale |
Good for you Mr Cummings |
Heh  | | | |
| Lotto News on 19:08 - May 25 with 2453 views | Brierls |
| Lotto News on 18:19 - May 25 by Reedy |
So do you also agree with the figures about half signing up via direct debit and it being considerably worse for the club financially? |
Jesus this is getting tiresome.
It’s all based on if’s and buts, Reedy. The truth is we don’t don’t what the true figures are, we don’t know how many will take up the DD scheme now that the message is there will be no doorstep collections.
It’s not as simple as how much money is coming in, you also have to consider how much money is going out. That could be prizes, printing of tickets, wages for staff, insurance etc.
Do I think less money will come into the club via Dale Lotto without agents? Yes.
If the new Dale Lotto ‘model’ shows a considerable decrease in profit then serious questions need to be asked of those who made the decisions. | | | |
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| Lotto News on 19:21 - May 25 with 2429 views | judd |
| Lotto News on 18:56 - May 25 by Brierls |
Genuinely, no I don’t remember posting on Facebook that I don’t agree with the decision. I posted in reply to somebody implying that it was a “back pocket job” from the board, pointing out that it would be easier to fiddle cash collections than Direct Debits. It’s nonsense.
To be clear, Facebook post or not, I actually don’t agree with decision. It seems an own goal financially and in goodwill, but I am not in possession of that facts and figures so there is an emphasis on ‘seems’.
My original reply on the thread was putting it out there that an agent led Goldbond/Dale Lotto had maybe run its course. I was saying that maybe, when stripped back, it doesn’t make the club enough money. Between you and Reedy, you’ve effectively said that DB has got rid of the an agent led Goldbond/Dale Lotto because he wanted to, and it’s cost the club in the region of £50K per year. |
That is roughly my belief, yes.
At no stage that I recall were agents informed of an adverse financial performance.
The Goldbond model has worked well, especially when properly and regularly canvassed. That less than 1% of our 5,500 members converted to the new offering speaks volumes. It did need a new impetus, plenty of ideas abound but it appeared a done deal at those agents meetings.
It has been change for the sake of change,.in my opinion.
I am unsure at this stage how many more members the new Lotto has recruited since we last heard via the Trust in November 2019. At that stage we were informed that 20% of takings went to Barry Kilbeys prostate cancer charity and that there were no other beneficiaries of funds raised.
We now know that Place Enterprise canvas on behalf of this lotto - is this funded by the club or the lotto partner also referenced in the Trust minutes? Who is this lotto partner? Total Gaming Solutions has been mentioned in the past, owned by Barry Kilbey. If we are donating 20% of takings to charity, what actually goes to charity? If all of it then how are TGS/Place funded, or do they work for nothing?
So, 5,500 members have refused to convert and we take away their convenient payment method and ask them to sign up to a product they have already turned down. I expect the additional numbers of the new lotto since November 2019 are of such significance that the club can afford now to risk a large chunk of Goldbond customers to leave. | |
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| Lotto News on 19:28 - May 25 with 2404 views | fitzochris |
| Lotto News on 19:21 - May 25 by judd |
That is roughly my belief, yes.
At no stage that I recall were agents informed of an adverse financial performance.
The Goldbond model has worked well, especially when properly and regularly canvassed. That less than 1% of our 5,500 members converted to the new offering speaks volumes. It did need a new impetus, plenty of ideas abound but it appeared a done deal at those agents meetings.
It has been change for the sake of change,.in my opinion.
I am unsure at this stage how many more members the new Lotto has recruited since we last heard via the Trust in November 2019. At that stage we were informed that 20% of takings went to Barry Kilbeys prostate cancer charity and that there were no other beneficiaries of funds raised.
We now know that Place Enterprise canvas on behalf of this lotto - is this funded by the club or the lotto partner also referenced in the Trust minutes? Who is this lotto partner? Total Gaming Solutions has been mentioned in the past, owned by Barry Kilbey. If we are donating 20% of takings to charity, what actually goes to charity? If all of it then how are TGS/Place funded, or do they work for nothing?
So, 5,500 members have refused to convert and we take away their convenient payment method and ask them to sign up to a product they have already turned down. I expect the additional numbers of the new lotto since November 2019 are of such significance that the club can afford now to risk a large chunk of Goldbond customers to leave. |
I’d be very interested in the answers to your penultimate paragraph, personally. |  |
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| Lotto News on 19:41 - May 25 with 2383 views | Brierls |
| Lotto News on 19:21 - May 25 by judd |
That is roughly my belief, yes.
At no stage that I recall were agents informed of an adverse financial performance.
The Goldbond model has worked well, especially when properly and regularly canvassed. That less than 1% of our 5,500 members converted to the new offering speaks volumes. It did need a new impetus, plenty of ideas abound but it appeared a done deal at those agents meetings.
It has been change for the sake of change,.in my opinion.
I am unsure at this stage how many more members the new Lotto has recruited since we last heard via the Trust in November 2019. At that stage we were informed that 20% of takings went to Barry Kilbeys prostate cancer charity and that there were no other beneficiaries of funds raised.
We now know that Place Enterprise canvas on behalf of this lotto - is this funded by the club or the lotto partner also referenced in the Trust minutes? Who is this lotto partner? Total Gaming Solutions has been mentioned in the past, owned by Barry Kilbey. If we are donating 20% of takings to charity, what actually goes to charity? If all of it then how are TGS/Place funded, or do they work for nothing?
So, 5,500 members have refused to convert and we take away their convenient payment method and ask them to sign up to a product they have already turned down. I expect the additional numbers of the new lotto since November 2019 are of such significance that the club can afford now to risk a large chunk of Goldbond customers to leave. |
That belief is incomprehensible to me, BUT in the interests of transparency I would be very interested in seeing the answers to your questions on Place Enterprise, Total Gaming Solutions and any other lottery partners.
Have you spoken with the Trust to get them asked? I’m not trying to trip you up here, I’ll email them if you haven’t already. | | | |
| Lotto News on 19:45 - May 25 with 2370 views | judd |
| Lotto News on 19:41 - May 25 by Brierls |
That belief is incomprehensible to me, BUT in the interests of transparency I would be very interested in seeing the answers to your questions on Place Enterprise, Total Gaming Solutions and any other lottery partners.
Have you spoken with the Trust to get them asked? I’m not trying to trip you up here, I’ll email them if you haven’t already. |
On the thread you posted on on facebook you will see other posters that i do not know and cannot influence have the same incomprehensible belief because, like me, were at those meetings.
Just to clarify.my belief was with regards agents and not any losses that you allude to. [Post edited 25 May 2020 20:13]
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| Lotto News on 19:57 - May 25 with 2345 views | Reedy |
| Lotto News on 19:08 - May 25 by Brierls |
Jesus this is getting tiresome.
It’s all based on if’s and buts, Reedy. The truth is we don’t don’t what the true figures are, we don’t know how many will take up the DD scheme now that the message is there will be no doorstep collections.
It’s not as simple as how much money is coming in, you also have to consider how much money is going out. That could be prizes, printing of tickets, wages for staff, insurance etc.
Do I think less money will come into the club via Dale Lotto without agents? Yes.
If the new Dale Lotto ‘model’ shows a considerable decrease in profit then serious questions need to be asked of those who made the decisions. |
It is if and buts, but these figures I’ve posted aren’t just plucked from the air. I’ve presented a case where half of the current members who pay an agent take up the direct debit, which given that less than 1% have taken up the offer whilst the club has relentlessly pushed this over the past two years, is very generous.
Between £65k and £85k (the difference being back back pay) is still considerably more than what we will get through direct debit, I absolutely guarantee it.
The club also donates 20% of the proceeds to charity (which I’ve no issue with) and the issue with place enterprises and total gaming solutions, who runs it? What percentage do they take? That’s more money not going to the club, the more you do the figures, the 15% commission and a £30 season ticket look a lot better.
For the record, I’m fairly sure total gaming solutions were the original company behind the rebrand (I do stand to be corrected if that has since changed) but this does tie in with what I said earlier about Barry Kilby being involved as he is listed as a director of the company. | |
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| Lotto News on 22:20 - May 25 with 2242 views | judd |
| Lotto News on 19:57 - May 25 by Reedy |
It is if and buts, but these figures I’ve posted aren’t just plucked from the air. I’ve presented a case where half of the current members who pay an agent take up the direct debit, which given that less than 1% have taken up the offer whilst the club has relentlessly pushed this over the past two years, is very generous.
Between £65k and £85k (the difference being back back pay) is still considerably more than what we will get through direct debit, I absolutely guarantee it.
The club also donates 20% of the proceeds to charity (which I’ve no issue with) and the issue with place enterprises and total gaming solutions, who runs it? What percentage do they take? That’s more money not going to the club, the more you do the figures, the 15% commission and a £30 season ticket look a lot better.
For the record, I’m fairly sure total gaming solutions were the original company behind the rebrand (I do stand to be corrected if that has since changed) but this does tie in with what I said earlier about Barry Kilby being involved as he is listed as a director of the company. |
Cheers Reedy, Total Gaming Solutions are a lotteries management company.
They did feature at the forum that followed Chris Dunphys departure, I think.
There was some challenge of their previous performances at other clubs only for a statement along the lines of them making a £150k profit for Portsmouth.
Portsmouth has a fan base probably 10x ours,.but hey ho.
Are they still with Portsmouth?
As incomprehensible as it may seem, I believe that TGS will expect to be paid for their management services. How much? What triggers a payment? How frequently are they paid? Commission? Management fee? Consultancy charges? Hourly rate? Is this payment in addition to what the club pays to the charity?
TGS appear to sub-contract out canvassing to Place Enterprise, based on the Wirral. How are they recompensed for their travel and door knocking, or do they only attend pre- booked appointments? Do they work for free?
In November 2019 the Trust was told that other than the 20% of takings of the new lotto going to the prostate cancer charity, there were no other beneficiaries from the income generated by the new Lotto set up.
Does 100% of the charity payment therefore go to charity or not, given that charitable donations are a selling point of the new Lotto?
I genuinely hope the club has reached a point whereby our lotto partners have delivered the revenue and profits that us agents failed to do. | |
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| Lotto News on 09:07 - May 26 with 2102 views | Reedy |
| Lotto News on 22:20 - May 25 by judd |
Cheers Reedy, Total Gaming Solutions are a lotteries management company.
They did feature at the forum that followed Chris Dunphys departure, I think.
There was some challenge of their previous performances at other clubs only for a statement along the lines of them making a £150k profit for Portsmouth.
Portsmouth has a fan base probably 10x ours,.but hey ho.
Are they still with Portsmouth?
As incomprehensible as it may seem, I believe that TGS will expect to be paid for their management services. How much? What triggers a payment? How frequently are they paid? Commission? Management fee? Consultancy charges? Hourly rate? Is this payment in addition to what the club pays to the charity?
TGS appear to sub-contract out canvassing to Place Enterprise, based on the Wirral. How are they recompensed for their travel and door knocking, or do they only attend pre- booked appointments? Do they work for free?
In November 2019 the Trust was told that other than the 20% of takings of the new lotto going to the prostate cancer charity, there were no other beneficiaries from the income generated by the new Lotto set up.
Does 100% of the charity payment therefore go to charity or not, given that charitable donations are a selling point of the new Lotto?
I genuinely hope the club has reached a point whereby our lotto partners have delivered the revenue and profits that us agents failed to do. |
Total gaming solutions were behind the rebrand, I’m fairly certain of this. And with Barry Kilby being a director of this company, that would make sense. I also remember the comparisons with Portsmouth and the club were adamant this was the right to do and would see a substantial amount of extra money coming in from the lottery.
20% goes to charity, this we know to be a fact. TGS will also be taking something, I don’t know the percentage, but I would say somewhere around 10% is fair. Place enterprise (who I hadn’t heard of until Judd brought them other day) won’t be doing it for the good of their health. The big question to me is, who pays them, is it us or TGS?
Whichever way you cut it, it’s going to be more than 15% that agents currently take.
Your last paragraph judd is something we would all hope for, but at the moment they’re are considerably more questions than answers. | |
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| Lotto News on 14:28 - May 26 with 1922 views | appledale11 |
As an agent for over 14 years it’s disappointing how this has been handled and finding out via twitter and Facebook before being informed personally whether in the form of a letter, email or telephone call is appalling. However given the COVID19 situation along with the bank holiday weekend maybe the letters were sent out before the announcement was made and have been delayed in the post system as I have received the letter today with a cheque for the outstanding commission owed, that could be one explanation.
In addition to that the majority of staff at the football club have been furloughed for a number of weeks, particularly those in the lotteries department as such resources are limited both at the club and externally, maybe that has ultimately hindered communication? Whilst I don’t agree with the decision, I’m sure every agent knew the writing has been on the wall for the past 12/18 months if not longer and eventually agents along with the collection of a weekly cash lottery were going to be scrapped, the decision resolves the inevitable sooner
Nobody knows the financials surrounding this, so there’s no point speculating. The letter does state that the club will contact every member to inform them of the decision. One must presume this exercise has been carried out. Only time will tell if this difficult decision is for the best but I’m sure the board have their good reasons for doing so and we have to respect that.
Up the dale! [Post edited 26 May 2020 14:32]
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| Lotto News on 14:44 - May 26 with 1893 views | ChaffRAFC |
| Lotto News on 14:28 - May 26 by appledale11 |
As an agent for over 14 years it’s disappointing how this has been handled and finding out via twitter and Facebook before being informed personally whether in the form of a letter, email or telephone call is appalling. However given the COVID19 situation along with the bank holiday weekend maybe the letters were sent out before the announcement was made and have been delayed in the post system as I have received the letter today with a cheque for the outstanding commission owed, that could be one explanation.
In addition to that the majority of staff at the football club have been furloughed for a number of weeks, particularly those in the lotteries department as such resources are limited both at the club and externally, maybe that has ultimately hindered communication? Whilst I don’t agree with the decision, I’m sure every agent knew the writing has been on the wall for the past 12/18 months if not longer and eventually agents along with the collection of a weekly cash lottery were going to be scrapped, the decision resolves the inevitable sooner
Nobody knows the financials surrounding this, so there’s no point speculating. The letter does state that the club will contact every member to inform them of the decision. One must presume this exercise has been carried out. Only time will tell if this difficult decision is for the best but I’m sure the board have their good reasons for doing so and we have to respect that.
Up the dale! [Post edited 26 May 2020 14:32]
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I too have had more letters today, one was my outstanding commission in a cheque with a thank you note and the other was a letter detailing the notion to cancel the doorstep collections with a note in there stating that "Although we don't yet know when the 20/21 season will commence, please rest assured you'll be rewarded for your loyalty and we will write again when we have more details." |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| Lotto News on 15:21 - May 26 with 1850 views | Statzdale |
| Lotto News on 14:44 - May 26 by ChaffRAFC |
I too have had more letters today, one was my outstanding commission in a cheque with a thank you note and the other was a letter detailing the notion to cancel the doorstep collections with a note in there stating that "Although we don't yet know when the 20/21 season will commence, please rest assured you'll be rewarded for your loyalty and we will write again when we have more details." |
Got my “letter” today it said - Outstanding Commission, thank you for all your past efforts. Regards Dale Lotto
Not expecting bouquets but more than this after 16 years and raising over £20,000 for the club. A reversal of this crass decision and my rounds back would be good | | | |
| Lotto News on 16:08 - May 26 with 1805 views | RaymondJohn |
Statz
I was unfurloughed for 1 day so I could make sure you got the commission then i was furloughed again!!!
9 weeks in total furloughed sorry if it was short but alternative was for you to wait until I was unfurloghed which could be months.
I dont expect bouquet by the way. Ray | | | |
| Lotto News on 16:55 - May 26 with 1752 views | Statzdale |
| Lotto News on 16:08 - May 26 by RaymondJohn |
Statz
I was unfurloughed for 1 day so I could make sure you got the commission then i was furloughed again!!!
9 weeks in total furloughed sorry if it was short but alternative was for you to wait until I was unfurloghed which could be months.
I dont expect bouquet by the way. Ray |
No problem with you at all Ray you have done a great job. I’m still extremely upset losing my brilliant rounds and extremely loyal customers after 16 years and I’m sure I’m not alone | | | |
| Lotto News on 17:11 - May 26 with 1720 views | dawlishdale |
| Lotto News on 16:08 - May 26 by RaymondJohn |
Statz
I was unfurloughed for 1 day so I could make sure you got the commission then i was furloughed again!!!
9 weeks in total furloughed sorry if it was short but alternative was for you to wait until I was unfurloghed which could be months.
I dont expect bouquet by the way. Ray |
And that kind of underlines that the CEO reads this messageboard, and that he knows the upset this decision has caused. It really should have been handled better by the football club.
Hats off to Raymond for agreeing to be unfurloughed for just one day to sort out some of the mess. I'd have told the CEO to stick it and do it himself. | | | |
| Lotto News on 17:39 - May 26 with 1682 views | 442Dale |
Could someone be unfurloughed once every so often so that orders on the online shop could be sent out so that valuable income could continue to come into the club?
If supporters were aware when ordering that their goods would be sent out on, say, the last day of the month, then it would have been a good opportunity to sell remaining stock at sale prices ahead of any new kit/leisurewear coming in from Errea.
An example from a couple of years ago:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2018/may/shop-70offerreagear_closeseason/ |  |
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| Lotto News on 21:18 - May 26 with 1575 views | nordenblue |
| Lotto News on 17:39 - May 26 by 442Dale |
Could someone be unfurloughed once every so often so that orders on the online shop could be sent out so that valuable income could continue to come into the club?
If supporters were aware when ordering that their goods would be sent out on, say, the last day of the month, then it would have been a good opportunity to sell remaining stock at sale prices ahead of any new kit/leisurewear coming in from Errea.
An example from a couple of years ago:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2018/may/shop-70offerreagear_closeseason/ |
A few staff at the Mrs work are currently "sharing" furlough 1/2 week at a time, god knows how they're sorting out wages as they're all paid monthly,so guessing you can come on/off it | | | |
| Lotto News on 05:34 - May 27 with 1452 views | RAFCBLUE |
| Lotto News on 17:39 - May 26 by 442Dale |
Could someone be unfurloughed once every so often so that orders on the online shop could be sent out so that valuable income could continue to come into the club?
If supporters were aware when ordering that their goods would be sent out on, say, the last day of the month, then it would have been a good opportunity to sell remaining stock at sale prices ahead of any new kit/leisurewear coming in from Errea.
An example from a couple of years ago:
https://www.rochdaleafc.co.uk/news/2018/may/shop-70offerreagear_closeseason/ |
Yes, 442. You can furlough/unfurlough an employee as many times as you like.
The employer can only though claim the government rebate (for Ray in this instance) after three consecutive weeks off so whilst it will get back all of the cost after those three weeks the rebate is cash terms is not immediate.
”Any employees you place on furlough must be furloughed for a minimum of 3 consecutive weeks. When they return to work, they must be taken off furlough. Employees can be furloughed multiple times, but each separate instance must be for a minimum of 3 consecutive weeks. Each period of furlough can be extended by any amount of time whilst the employee is on furlough. However the scheme end date is the last day you can claim for through this scheme.”
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/claim-for-wage-costs-through-the-coronavirus-job-ret |  |
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