| Has keepball had it's day? 20:07 - Nov 21 with 6546 views | D_Alien |
Looking at the stats for the Spurs v Man City game, the BBC had it as 66% possession for Man City
The Pep Guardiola revolution has, imo, come to an end. Any manager or coach who decided to follow that type of football will not only increasingly find themselves on the wrong side of scorelines against canny opponents but also on the wrong side of their fans
Look at Barcelona too. They've lost their way
At L1/L2 level, trying to emulate this type of football is doomed to failure. The players just haven't got the technique for it
I feel sorry for Keohane. I didn't see what happened today but it's not the first time he's been caught out trying to play the ball from positions where every sporting instinct in his body must be telling him to punt it forwards. He was one of our standout players until the start of this month. I bet his confidence must be completely shot now, and all because he wasn't allowed to follow his instincts
I admire BBM and wish him well. I can understand why he tries to put a positive spin on everything, but surely even he must be troubled by how his way of playing isn't working. Dale fans are some of the most long-suffering in the EFL and i'm fully prepared to give him more time to change tack. But change, he surely must, or be on the wrong end of not just footballing trends but also the huge pent up desire among football supporters to be entertained in this, of all years
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 20:12 - Nov 21 with 3434 views | fitzochris |
Always been a fan of the direct approach myself - not necessarily hoofball, but more the type instigated by Keith Hill in his first spell at the club, before he too became obsessed with possession. |  |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 20:21 - Nov 21 with 3394 views | 442Dale |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 20:12 - Nov 21 by fitzochris |
Always been a fan of the direct approach myself - not necessarily hoofball, but more the type instigated by Keith Hill in his first spell at the club, before he too became obsessed with possession. |
And I’m wondering if Hill himself is reassessing his approach now too.
https://www.tranmererovers.co.uk/news/2020/november/keith-hills-first-interview-
There’s a difference between being a football side who look to keep the ball and one who believe the “process” is all important above achieving dominance in a game and ultimately results. BBM’s job is not under threat, but he has to re-assess because we are one dimensional and it’s a dimension, as noted in this thread, that’s been found out across the game.
Make no mistake, it’s time for a change. |  |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 21:09 - Nov 21 with 3307 views | Yorkshire_Dale |
We see Premier League players who are at the top of their game coming unstuck in this possession mularkey every week and as DA points out fans are turned off in droves.
How can we,with players like Mc Nulty , Dooley (playing a suicide pass to O'connell a couple of weeks ago) and Jimmy K today, adapt to this method...they are far too slow.
Leave it, Brian.
As said many times Football is a simple game, return to basics. |  | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 21:35 - Nov 21 with 3261 views | nordenblue |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 20:21 - Nov 21 by 442Dale |
And I’m wondering if Hill himself is reassessing his approach now too.
https://www.tranmererovers.co.uk/news/2020/november/keith-hills-first-interview-
There’s a difference between being a football side who look to keep the ball and one who believe the “process” is all important above achieving dominance in a game and ultimately results. BBM’s job is not under threat, but he has to re-assess because we are one dimensional and it’s a dimension, as noted in this thread, that’s been found out across the game.
Make no mistake, it’s time for a change. |
Tbf 442 it was so obviously time for a change months and months ago, when we've gained any real results we've ditched all the possession bollox that again saw BBMs predecessor come truly unstuck too, whats the definition of insanity again....... | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 22:39 - Nov 21 with 3146 views | Shun |
Good thread, DA. I was thinking about this earlier. Last season had more possession than anyone else in the league and still found ourselves having a poor season. This season our best results have all come when we've actually had less possession.
I saw the possession today - at one point we had 69%, and I immediately thought to myself that following this logic we're bound to lose! I propose we just give Northampton the ball on Tuesday and the win will take care of itself. |  | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 22:51 - Nov 21 with 3124 views | D_Alien |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 22:39 - Nov 21 by Shun |
Good thread, DA. I was thinking about this earlier. Last season had more possession than anyone else in the league and still found ourselves having a poor season. This season our best results have all come when we've actually had less possession.
I saw the possession today - at one point we had 69%, and I immediately thought to myself that following this logic we're bound to lose! I propose we just give Northampton the ball on Tuesday and the win will take care of itself. |
Shun, that's Irish logic!
But i like it. For me, it's about letting go of theories and letting instinct take over. I honestly think our lads are good enough with a minimum of organisation and less coaching
I wonder if anyone is brave enough to say that to BBM | |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 23:50 - Nov 21 with 3062 views | Frog |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 20:12 - Nov 21 by fitzochris |
Always been a fan of the direct approach myself - not necessarily hoofball, but more the type instigated by Keith Hill in his first spell at the club, before he too became obsessed with possession. |
Exactly, remember when Hill took over and started playing the "old way" with wingers and getting the ball in the box, was the start of the revolution. He decided to copy what was in vogue later on and I believe that's why he lost his way. |  | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 06:26 - Nov 22 with 2954 views | Nigeriamark |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 23:50 - Nov 21 by Frog |
Exactly, remember when Hill took over and started playing the "old way" with wingers and getting the ball in the box, was the start of the revolution. He decided to copy what was in vogue later on and I believe that's why he lost his way. |
have to agree with all these posts. The 4 game unbeaten run had much more of a mix of keeping posession , being direct and hoofing it if required. There were even a number of posts commenting on this as finally seeming to have got it right. As I put on another thread, we stopped doing this even though we were winning at the time so it's mystifying
One example of deciding to be direct is Roberts. He gets involved with some of the passing around at the back, but at times takes off & has a direct run forwards. Suddenly it seems to open up for us. Admittedly he is a class above most, but if a CH can do it so should our other players. They have the ability but it seems they are being kept on a leash |  | | |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 06:37 - Nov 22 with 2950 views | richfoad32 |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 23:50 - Nov 21 by Frog |
Exactly, remember when Hill took over and started playing the "old way" with wingers and getting the ball in the box, was the start of the revolution. He decided to copy what was in vogue later on and I believe that's why he lost his way. |
I'm interested in why the 'posession, pass backwards, pass sideways, posession' style of football is suddenly in fashion anyway. Was there some sort of Moneyball study done that concluded that this was the best way to win games? It seems that even a lot of Dale's opponents have played this way to a certain degree, I don't watch much football these days but is it prevalent across all divisions? | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 06:49 - Nov 22 with 2941 views | nordenblue |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 06:37 - Nov 22 by richfoad32 |
I'm interested in why the 'posession, pass backwards, pass sideways, posession' style of football is suddenly in fashion anyway. Was there some sort of Moneyball study done that concluded that this was the best way to win games? It seems that even a lot of Dale's opponents have played this way to a certain degree, I don't watch much football these days but is it prevalent across all divisions? |
I think most take the opinion if you have the ball the opposition can't score, it was talked about last night on Quest regarding the EFL and the obsession with keeping the ball.
I'm sure it was Cowley who said just "give the ball to your best players and score goals" whilst highlighting Crewe yesterday with 70% possession at Pompey and got pummelled 4-1. [Post edited 22 Nov 2020 6:50]
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 07:04 - Nov 22 with 2932 views | James1980 |
Morning, early shift for me today hence being up now on a Sunday.
From our academy site
We will utilise the Principles of Attacking:
Dispersal
Penetrate
Movement & Support
Creativity
End Product
It seems to often everyone of these is missing in first team games, especially support and end product. How many times do we see a player surge into the opponents half to find they have no one around them supporting the attack.
The philosophy of Rochdale AFC Academy is to play ‘Possession based, fast attacking football’
Have put this up before. Sounds exciting problem is the first team forget the fast attacking part. | |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 07:47 - Nov 22 with 2909 views | richfoad32 |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 07:04 - Nov 22 by James1980 |
Morning, early shift for me today hence being up now on a Sunday.
From our academy site
We will utilise the Principles of Attacking:
Dispersal
Penetrate
Movement & Support
Creativity
End Product
It seems to often everyone of these is missing in first team games, especially support and end product. How many times do we see a player surge into the opponents half to find they have no one around them supporting the attack.
The philosophy of Rochdale AFC Academy is to play ‘Possession based, fast attacking football’
Have put this up before. Sounds exciting problem is the first team forget the fast attacking part. |
It's the movement and support part that stands out for me as well. Watching the Salford game in tinpot trophy the other week, they played an attacking passing game with neat little triangles that was actually decent to watch and made Dale look positively ponderous in comparison. I'm not sure that Ryan and Morley have the speed or athleticism to play this way and it seems that Brierley is being bought through to play the Ryan way as well. I don't pretend to be a tactical expert but surely you need your midfielders to venture over the halfway line occasionally? | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 07:52 - Nov 22 with 2902 views | James1980 |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 07:47 - Nov 22 by richfoad32 |
It's the movement and support part that stands out for me as well. Watching the Salford game in tinpot trophy the other week, they played an attacking passing game with neat little triangles that was actually decent to watch and made Dale look positively ponderous in comparison. I'm not sure that Ryan and Morley have the speed or athleticism to play this way and it seems that Brierley is being bought through to play the Ryan way as well. I don't pretend to be a tactical expert but surely you need your midfielders to venture over the halfway line occasionally? |
I thought the triangles tactic was the cornerstone of the Sparcelona team. Players constantly looking to offer, pass and receive the ball. When possession was lost a triangle closes in on the opposition to regain the ball. | |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 08:11 - Nov 22 with 2881 views | richfoad32 |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 07:52 - Nov 22 by James1980 |
I thought the triangles tactic was the cornerstone of the Sparcelona team. Players constantly looking to offer, pass and receive the ball. When possession was lost a triangle closes in on the opposition to regain the ball. |
Could have been. But it was possession football with an attacking intent, rather than 'play a 100 passes around amongst the backline whilst the opposition get 10 men behind the ball' ad infinitum. | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 08:34 - Nov 22 with 2851 views | 442Dale |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 06:49 - Nov 22 by nordenblue |
I think most take the opinion if you have the ball the opposition can't score, it was talked about last night on Quest regarding the EFL and the obsession with keeping the ball.
I'm sure it was Cowley who said just "give the ball to your best players and score goals" whilst highlighting Crewe yesterday with 70% possession at Pompey and got pummelled 4-1. [Post edited 22 Nov 2020 6:50]
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And Portsmouth have gone back to playing 4—4-2 with Cannon in central midfield.
There’s much been said by BBM about the patience and understanding supporters have for the way we play. I hope he now understands that we recognise that while we want a side that plays football, we are increasingly frustrated watching one that doesn’t move up the pitch and trouble the opposing team. There’s nowt wrong with getting it wide going at players and winning throw-ins and corners. That can be a tactic whatever formation we use. | |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 09:04 - Nov 22 with 2806 views | mingthemerciless |
With most lower level teams I see on TV the " pass and move " is too slow. It's almost walking football. If you're moving the ball around at walking pace opponents chasing the ball down who are actually running will usually managed to get the ball off you eventually.
The passing is usually to feet instead of into a space were the player receiving the ball can take the pass on the run. | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 09:08 - Nov 22 with 2798 views | RippDale |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 06:37 - Nov 22 by richfoad32 |
I'm interested in why the 'posession, pass backwards, pass sideways, posession' style of football is suddenly in fashion anyway. Was there some sort of Moneyball study done that concluded that this was the best way to win games? It seems that even a lot of Dale's opponents have played this way to a certain degree, I don't watch much football these days but is it prevalent across all divisions? |
I worked in academy football around 10 years ago and a directive came from the FA for the coaches to use this possession based football. It was similar to what we see now, pretty football but in whatever geometric shapes you can think of. Very low scoring games with little goalmouth action. It was all about player development and the results never mattered. No coincidence that we have a management team of academy coaches and dull, uninspiring football | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 09:34 - Nov 22 with 2744 views | boromat |
To be fair this season I feel like we have changed to be more direct. Yes we try to keep the ball and play out from the back. But with Beesley in the side and with the full backs pushing up we're constantly trying to hit those three with balls from Morley, Ryan and the centre backs.
The main problem I see is that most teams are well organised defensively at this level. Our effort to maintain the ball when we turn it over slows the game down and allows the opposition to setup defensively again. We then give ourselves a difficult situation in which to attack and make an opportunity.
Styles of play have always gone through cycles in the game and I think the OP is right we may be starting to see a bit of a change. | |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 09:39 - Nov 22 with 2736 views | James1980 |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 09:08 - Nov 22 by RippDale |
I worked in academy football around 10 years ago and a directive came from the FA for the coaches to use this possession based football. It was similar to what we see now, pretty football but in whatever geometric shapes you can think of. Very low scoring games with little goalmouth action. It was all about player development and the results never mattered. No coincidence that we have a management team of academy coaches and dull, uninspiring football |
So what happens to the 'fast attacking' bit then.? [Post edited 22 Nov 2020 10:22]
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 10:14 - Nov 22 with 2694 views | Dalenet |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 22:39 - Nov 21 by Shun |
Good thread, DA. I was thinking about this earlier. Last season had more possession than anyone else in the league and still found ourselves having a poor season. This season our best results have all come when we've actually had less possession.
I saw the possession today - at one point we had 69%, and I immediately thought to myself that following this logic we're bound to lose! I propose we just give Northampton the ball on Tuesday and the win will take care of itself. |
After 15 minutes we had 82% possession. I get the theory of possession football but it doesn't make exciting football for the fans. You have to have the skill to penetrate and intelligently move off the ball too and at our level we just don't have that do we? I watched a number of Premiership games yesterday and I can't say I enjoyed those either.
Yesterday we managed 60% possession over the full game. Yet managed one shot on target all game. I know you will mark me down for saying that but it is a problem. At best we draw. But it is no coincidence that our best results this season came from games where we didn't dominate possession. As for the managers decision to waste time to bring on weaker squad members in injury time that don't keep the ball well.... that cost us the draw. Not for the first time have we conceded at the death due to poor substitutions. BBM has to be smarter than that. I haven't got the enthusiasm to hear what he has said after yesterday. But come Tuesday we will move on | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 10:58 - Nov 22 with 2634 views | funkkk |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 10:14 - Nov 22 by Dalenet |
After 15 minutes we had 82% possession. I get the theory of possession football but it doesn't make exciting football for the fans. You have to have the skill to penetrate and intelligently move off the ball too and at our level we just don't have that do we? I watched a number of Premiership games yesterday and I can't say I enjoyed those either.
Yesterday we managed 60% possession over the full game. Yet managed one shot on target all game. I know you will mark me down for saying that but it is a problem. At best we draw. But it is no coincidence that our best results this season came from games where we didn't dominate possession. As for the managers decision to waste time to bring on weaker squad members in injury time that don't keep the ball well.... that cost us the draw. Not for the first time have we conceded at the death due to poor substitutions. BBM has to be smarter than that. I haven't got the enthusiasm to hear what he has said after yesterday. But come Tuesday we will move on |
Well I certainly wouldn't be confident BBM has learnt anything from the game judging by his comments:
“We displayed our identity over long periods of the game and the lads were fully committed to the processes of the way we want to play. There has been a very few minimal games this season where we feel as if we haven’t performed, and today, along with a large of majority of the season, the lads have applied our way of playing to a tee. As such, it’s important that I take the emotion out of the result and make clear to them what we can do better, and creating more clear cut chances in the final third is one of those things.” |  | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 11:09 - Nov 22 with 2613 views | isitme |
Our football is too slow so it is easy for teams to sit back and make us break them down, which we are struggling to do.
Most goals are scored within five passes of a transition in play, so wait for us to make a mistake in possession and then score as we saw yesterday. We lack the pace to go more direct and stretch the defence. I would be looking to involve Baah more as his pace allows us to go more direct and at least mix it up a bit. Another thing I do not like is when Morley ends up at left back or right back attempting killer balls. We we have the ball at the back we often lack options in the middle of the park to play a simple, progressive pass. |  | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 11:56 - Nov 22 with 2564 views | rochdaleriddler |
I don’t think it has. I watched the city game and the issue was more with having no aguero, no Sterling and an off colour de Brunye. And certainly to do with goalkeeping errors. When city are on top of their game it’s a beautiful watch. Keep ball with purpose. Spurs had a good game plan and their whole team worked their bollocks off. As for us, as others mention we seem to want possession for the sake of it. I think when it’s done properly though, with the keeper feeding defenders who then look to move the ball forwards it’s effective. We seem to just pass around our own half, then backwards again. We did this under Hill at the end, and it rightly cost him his job. We need to mix it up more, everyone has sussed us out . |  |
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| Has keepball had it's day? on 12:33 - Nov 22 with 2516 views | Yorkshire_Dale |
If you want to see a good game tune into Fulham V Everton on BBC RIGHT now.......open game with both teams going for it 1-2 Everton so far......no pissing about (so far) | | | |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 12:50 - Nov 22 with 2495 views | TVOS1907 |
| Has keepball had it's day? on 12:33 - Nov 22 by Yorkshire_Dale |
If you want to see a good game tune into Fulham V Everton on BBC RIGHT now.......open game with both teams going for it 1-2 Everton so far......no pissing about (so far) |
Apart from when Everton scored their first goal. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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