| Dale Trust Update 19:28 - Feb 19 with 8985 views | blackdogblue |
Just got my e mail update ðŸ‘
Admit, just scan read it as had a few beers.. but takeaway is.
Dale lotto has a lot of more digging into? �? |  |
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| Dale Trust Update on 12:37 - Feb 20 with 2157 views | SuddenLad |
| Dale Trust Update on 22:40 - Feb 19 by judd |
If only I had 3 saddos who could turn up simultaneously and down vote that... |
You've managed just one so far...... |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Dale Trust Update on 12:39 - Feb 20 with 2126 views | DaleiLama |
| Dale Trust Update on 11:57 - Feb 20 by D_Alien |
The way i see it is this:
Whoever originated and pushed through the change (in the name of 'modernisation' no doubt) is in effect costing the club the difference between the current income and the income from the door-to-door Goldbond Agents method
A quick calculation should show not only how much this has already cost the club in lost income, but will continue to do so "going forward"
Unless said individual(s) are adding value in some material way over and above their salary, they can be rightly designated a drain on the resources of our beloved Dale and the board should take appropriate action as they would with any other employee under similar circumstances
[Post edited 20 Feb 2021 11:58]
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The irony of "the club" reducing headcount in an area which generated income, thereby reducing income generated whilst increasing headcount in areas which don't generate income or contribute to us staying up ........
#voteofnoconfidence |  |
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| Dale Trust Update on 13:19 - Feb 20 with 2014 views | Reedy |
So the club now receives around £18,000 before any fees to outside agencies?
I listened to the podcast with Francis (a very good listen for those who haven’t listened) and he said that it’s height, the lottery had around 17,000 members. Now it brings in £18,000 per year. He also said that Richard Wild (who played a big part in building up the lottery) was asked to speak at lottery meetings around the country, due to the success of our lottery. How times change.
The trust held a meeting with the club regarding the lotto last summer (link below):
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2020/08/lotto-meeting-report/
In the meeting, the club stated that the turnover for the lottery in the previous 12 months was £165,000, with a profit of less than £20,000.
So we’ve completely lost our link to the local community, we’ve annoyed pretty much every supporter (and agents) with how this debacle has been handled, we also annoyed old paying members with how this was handled. Finally, it would appear the change will see less revenue coming into the club.
Whichever way you look at this, it’s an absolute shambles.
In the same meeting the club stated that they projected a turnover of £89,000 based on the amount of members signed up at the time of the meeting. At the time of the meeting the lottery had 761 members, I have no idea how many members are currently signed up, but I struggle to see how £89,000 has turned into £18,000.
I know for a fact that towards the end of the old lottery system, the club had around 5,500 paying members, every week. When I had three rounds, I collected between £100-£150 every week.
Last summer I emailed our CEO, and after sending a couple of follow up emails, I received a reply:
He stated that paying winnings by cheque was the cheapest way of transferring money to the winners.
I asked why two draws were done together on 18th September, I was told it was due to staff illness/shortages. I checked Portsmouth and Bristol City (TGS operates both their lotteries) both of their draws were done as normal.
I asked about the (roughly) 5,216 members the lottery lost from the old system, I was told my information wasn’t factually correct and he asked where I got this information from.
I asked about the meeting with the trust and the turnover target of £89,000 and the amount of members that had signed up, I was once again told my information was factually incorrect. Even though what I asked, is in the public domain on the trust website.
I asked how many members were currently paying each week. He couldn’t answer this question and asked me to clarify what I meant.
I asked about the face of the club in the community, particularly the elderly who some of whom only answered the door once a week, I’ve copy and pasted my question and his reply below:
Q, Money should not be the driving factor here, the face of the club in the community should be, which has been so shamefully ripped away, particularly for the elder generation who answered the door once a week.
A, The Lotto is there to give an income stream , and in the nicest way we have for 30 + years had a community sports trust that delivers the face of the club to the very wide ranging Community of Rochdale
The community do a great job, but going knocking on 1000’s of doors a week, every week, will keep the club at the forefront of people’s minds.
Everything that is rotten at the club all leads back to the door of one man. He needs removing from the club, and he needs removing quickly and replaced by someone who is capable of running a football club, not destroying it. |  |
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| Dale Trust Update on 14:06 - Feb 20 with 1917 views | BillyRudd |
This reminds me of the debacle with Provident Finance a PLC quoted on the London Stock Exchange. Anyone aware of this sorry tale would have foreseen this all day long.
In 2017 the new CEO decided the 4,500 self employed doorstop collectors for loans and repayments, a strategy that had increased turnover massively in the preceding years and existed for 130 years, would be done away with. In its place would be 2,500 in house "Customer experience managers" armed with ipads and electronic payment methods.
Result? When the figures were announced the company had gone from being hugely profitable to alarming losses (within 12 months) the dividend had to be cancelled and the CEO (Salary £6.3 million the previous year) had to resign. Being the CEO of a PLC he was of course accountable to shareholders.
Albeit the businesses of doorstop lottery and loans are different, the face to face interaction is the crucial factor here and is obviously one that neither the suits at Provident and Rochdale A.F.C seemed able to grasp. Its what happens when new kids on the block are not able to see that there are causes and effects when the human interaction of a financial transaction are not taken into account.
A brave management would hold their hands up and revert back but alas that would mean admitting their mistake and obviously take years to replace what has been lost both in goodwill and £sd.
I am no Luddite but this result was,nt rocket science. | | | |
| Dale Trust Update on 15:35 - Feb 20 with 1808 views | kel |
| Dale Trust Update on 13:06 - Feb 20 by ncfc_chalky |
Tbh I'm still trying to curry favour and get into the Cambridge clique and find out what (8) means  [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 13:07]
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You’ve been in the plate clique for years, Chalks. (8) [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 15:36]
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| Dale Trust Update on 18:17 - Feb 20 with 1652 views | 100notout |
Can't say I've forensically analysed all the numbers but I think what some people are not appreciating is that there is a massive difference between the gross and net income from the door to door collections.
I have read somewhere that gross collections were £165k less 15% commission to agents, less the cost of several season tickets, less all staff costs (3 staff made redundant?) cash handling / banking costs, results sheet printing etc - I can see how net profit comes down significantly - think I read to £20k somewhere?
So not that much less than the apparent net £18k and growing annual income from the "new" lottery.
All that said I do think the club have cocked up big style with this - its not ALL about money. We've lost that personal touch with thousands of people, many who never go to games but were proud to be "supporting the Dale" in their own way and many elderly people who looked forward to a weekly chat with a familiar face - and for a lot of whom it was the only human contact they had - you can't put a price on that.
The pandemic of course makes a return in the short term impossible - would it be possible to relaunch later this year? I don't know but its a real shame to lose these non-financial benefits and it further removes the "community based" image we had. | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 18:43 - Feb 20 with 1587 views | R17ALE |
A few points to consider.... Cloughie at his peak was collecting more on a weekly basis than our entire lottery manages now.
Franchising out anything is foolish business practice when things like lotteries, pie huts etc can be managed to make more profit.
I remember the hoo hah at regaining full ownership of the ground as it means all profits from bars, catering etc. come into the club 100% yet within a few years we'd given up the pie huts to an outside company in what I'm reliably informed was "the worst deal of the Century".
Back to the lottery though. In the late 90s, in a quarter, all lotteries would contribute about £75,000 profit to the club. That has been left to go to £75,000 per year.
And the worst thing is the person who made this decision was told well in advance, by both of the late 90s lottery employees, that his ideas wouldn't work. On both occasions we were completely ignored. I imagine one still has the email that was claimed to have not been received!
Years of pounding the streets building up something that was supposed to be a revenue stream for the club forever has sadly been tossed aside and it does sadden me. Rome* wasn't built in a day and all that.
*Although to be fair, I wasn't on that job!
It's all very sad and entirely predictable. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 18:45]
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| Dale Trust Update on 18:49 - Feb 20 with 1566 views | judd |
| Dale Trust Update on 18:17 - Feb 20 by 100notout |
Can't say I've forensically analysed all the numbers but I think what some people are not appreciating is that there is a massive difference between the gross and net income from the door to door collections.
I have read somewhere that gross collections were £165k less 15% commission to agents, less the cost of several season tickets, less all staff costs (3 staff made redundant?) cash handling / banking costs, results sheet printing etc - I can see how net profit comes down significantly - think I read to £20k somewhere?
So not that much less than the apparent net £18k and growing annual income from the "new" lottery.
All that said I do think the club have cocked up big style with this - its not ALL about money. We've lost that personal touch with thousands of people, many who never go to games but were proud to be "supporting the Dale" in their own way and many elderly people who looked forward to a weekly chat with a familiar face - and for a lot of whom it was the only human contact they had - you can't put a price on that.
The pandemic of course makes a return in the short term impossible - would it be possible to relaunch later this year? I don't know but its a real shame to lose these non-financial benefits and it further removes the "community based" image we had. |
I suppose it depends if you believe the Goldbond profits were less than £20k.
If the Trust can see the audited P&L then that would be useful in establishing that profit figure as fact.
The whole idea was to significantly improve profitability for the club and the current run rate says it's failed. Would be interesting to see what the retained first quarter profits are that TGS claim they have done. |  |
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| Dale Trust Update on 19:15 - Feb 20 with 1486 views | blackdogblue |
| Dale Trust Update on 18:43 - Feb 20 by R17ALE |
A few points to consider.... Cloughie at his peak was collecting more on a weekly basis than our entire lottery manages now.
Franchising out anything is foolish business practice when things like lotteries, pie huts etc can be managed to make more profit.
I remember the hoo hah at regaining full ownership of the ground as it means all profits from bars, catering etc. come into the club 100% yet within a few years we'd given up the pie huts to an outside company in what I'm reliably informed was "the worst deal of the Century".
Back to the lottery though. In the late 90s, in a quarter, all lotteries would contribute about £75,000 profit to the club. That has been left to go to £75,000 per year.
And the worst thing is the person who made this decision was told well in advance, by both of the late 90s lottery employees, that his ideas wouldn't work. On both occasions we were completely ignored. I imagine one still has the email that was claimed to have not been received!
Years of pounding the streets building up something that was supposed to be a revenue stream for the club forever has sadly been tossed aside and it does sadden me. Rome* wasn't built in a day and all that.
*Although to be fair, I wasn't on that job!
It's all very sad and entirely predictable. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 18:45]
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That gets a huge 👠from me, especially the catering... | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 19:35 - Feb 20 with 1422 views | golfaduffy |
| Dale Trust Update on 18:43 - Feb 20 by R17ALE |
A few points to consider.... Cloughie at his peak was collecting more on a weekly basis than our entire lottery manages now.
Franchising out anything is foolish business practice when things like lotteries, pie huts etc can be managed to make more profit.
I remember the hoo hah at regaining full ownership of the ground as it means all profits from bars, catering etc. come into the club 100% yet within a few years we'd given up the pie huts to an outside company in what I'm reliably informed was "the worst deal of the Century".
Back to the lottery though. In the late 90s, in a quarter, all lotteries would contribute about £75,000 profit to the club. That has been left to go to £75,000 per year.
And the worst thing is the person who made this decision was told well in advance, by both of the late 90s lottery employees, that his ideas wouldn't work. On both occasions we were completely ignored. I imagine one still has the email that was claimed to have not been received!
Years of pounding the streets building up something that was supposed to be a revenue stream for the club forever has sadly been tossed aside and it does sadden me. Rome* wasn't built in a day and all that.
*Although to be fair, I wasn't on that job!
It's all very sad and entirely predictable. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 18:45]
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If you are who I think you are, I was stood near you and him at Maidstone in the cup, and overheard a conversation in which he basically said he had ideas of making the lottery "all Direct Debit" and getting shut of the agents. I think you told him in no uncertain terms that it wouldn't work in Rochdale, after which he just ignored you and walked away.
Apologies if I have you mixed up with someone else, but he was speaking to someone about the changes he had planned back then !! Whether or not it was you, I later heard him telling another much younger chap that you were a dinosaur . | | | |
| Dale Trust Update on 19:49 - Feb 20 with 1383 views | Reedy |
| Dale Trust Update on 18:17 - Feb 20 by 100notout |
Can't say I've forensically analysed all the numbers but I think what some people are not appreciating is that there is a massive difference between the gross and net income from the door to door collections.
I have read somewhere that gross collections were £165k less 15% commission to agents, less the cost of several season tickets, less all staff costs (3 staff made redundant?) cash handling / banking costs, results sheet printing etc - I can see how net profit comes down significantly - think I read to £20k somewhere?
So not that much less than the apparent net £18k and growing annual income from the "new" lottery.
All that said I do think the club have cocked up big style with this - its not ALL about money. We've lost that personal touch with thousands of people, many who never go to games but were proud to be "supporting the Dale" in their own way and many elderly people who looked forward to a weekly chat with a familiar face - and for a lot of whom it was the only human contact they had - you can't put a price on that.
The pandemic of course makes a return in the short term impossible - would it be possible to relaunch later this year? I don't know but its a real shame to lose these non-financial benefits and it further removes the "community based" image we had. |
I would like to explore this £165,000, that’s over £3,000 per week coming into the club in revenue. What used to come in six weeks, now takes a year.
My calculations:
Commission of 15% - £24,750
Season tickets - £20,000 (100 hundred season tickets, average saving of £200)
Wages - £30,000 (one full time member of staff and one part time, as it was in the last 12 months)
Prizes - £52,000
Results sheets - £0, paid for by advertising on the reverse side.
On the email from our CEO I spoke about earlier, he stated to me that some agents received more than 15% commission, I never knew of this, and would like to ask if anyone else does? Or is it another statement playing fast and loose with facts.
I’m struggling to think of any other costs, but if I’ve forgotten any, please let me know! All this taken into account, leaves the club with a profit of nearly £40,000 per year. Considerably less than the £75,000 per quarter spoken of earlier, but much better than £18,000 per annum.
I’m going to stick my head above the parapet and say the club have lied about the profit made from the old system, they manipulated the figures to suit their own means. This is just my opinion, I have no evidence of it, but in the same breath, the club have never released the figures around the £165,000 or the £20,000.
The fact that one man (an incredible man) used to collect more on his own, than the entire lottery does now, is damning and quite frankly, embarrassing for all those involved at the club.
When goldbond turned into the Dale lotto, the club persistently pushed direct debits, to the point where my members asked me if I was stopping collecting! None of my members signed up to direct debit, all were dead set against it, some of them didn’t even know what a direct debit was. When this was communicated back to the club by myself and other agents, the subject was changed. They thought they knew better. | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 19:54 - Feb 20 with 1372 views | judd |
| Dale Trust Update on 19:49 - Feb 20 by Reedy |
I would like to explore this £165,000, that’s over £3,000 per week coming into the club in revenue. What used to come in six weeks, now takes a year.
My calculations:
Commission of 15% - £24,750
Season tickets - £20,000 (100 hundred season tickets, average saving of £200)
Wages - £30,000 (one full time member of staff and one part time, as it was in the last 12 months)
Prizes - £52,000
Results sheets - £0, paid for by advertising on the reverse side.
On the email from our CEO I spoke about earlier, he stated to me that some agents received more than 15% commission, I never knew of this, and would like to ask if anyone else does? Or is it another statement playing fast and loose with facts.
I’m struggling to think of any other costs, but if I’ve forgotten any, please let me know! All this taken into account, leaves the club with a profit of nearly £40,000 per year. Considerably less than the £75,000 per quarter spoken of earlier, but much better than £18,000 per annum.
I’m going to stick my head above the parapet and say the club have lied about the profit made from the old system, they manipulated the figures to suit their own means. This is just my opinion, I have no evidence of it, but in the same breath, the club have never released the figures around the £165,000 or the £20,000.
The fact that one man (an incredible man) used to collect more on his own, than the entire lottery does now, is damning and quite frankly, embarrassing for all those involved at the club.
When goldbond turned into the Dale lotto, the club persistently pushed direct debits, to the point where my members asked me if I was stopping collecting! None of my members signed up to direct debit, all were dead set against it, some of them didn’t even know what a direct debit was. When this was communicated back to the club by myself and other agents, the subject was changed. They thought they knew better. |
There were some on higher commissions latterly. It wouldn't have made a visible dent in profits.
With regards season tickets, not sure how that is a cost to be deducted?
Approx 100 agents paid £30 each. | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:01 - Feb 20 with 1343 views | Reedy |
| Dale Trust Update on 19:54 - Feb 20 by judd |
There were some on higher commissions latterly. It wouldn't have made a visible dent in profits.
With regards season tickets, not sure how that is a cost to be deducted?
Approx 100 agents paid £30 each. |
Our CEO made abundantly clear to me on at least three separate occasions that the cost of reduced season tickets was taken into account for the figures for the lottery.
I wonder if the £3,000 paid for season tickets was taken into account? Somehow, I doubt it. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 20:07]
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:10 - Feb 20 with 1307 views | R17ALE |
| Dale Trust Update on 19:35 - Feb 20 by golfaduffy |
If you are who I think you are, I was stood near you and him at Maidstone in the cup, and overheard a conversation in which he basically said he had ideas of making the lottery "all Direct Debit" and getting shut of the agents. I think you told him in no uncertain terms that it wouldn't work in Rochdale, after which he just ignored you and walked away.
Apologies if I have you mixed up with someone else, but he was speaking to someone about the changes he had planned back then !! Whether or not it was you, I later heard him telling another much younger chap that you were a dinosaur . |
Blimey. Yes. Miss Marple will be shitting herself! | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:12 - Feb 20 with 1301 views | judd |
| Dale Trust Update on 20:01 - Feb 20 by Reedy |
Our CEO made abundantly clear to me on at least three separate occasions that the cost of reduced season tickets was taken into account for the figures for the lottery.
I wonder if the £3,000 paid for season tickets was taken into account? Somehow, I doubt it. [Post edited 20 Feb 2021 20:07]
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How can it be a cost?
What if the agent, if he/she wasn't an agent, did not buy a season ticket or go to any games at all?
Did he take into account how much of the commission went back into the club?
All of mine did. | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:15 - Feb 20 with 1290 views | Reedy |
| Dale Trust Update on 20:12 - Feb 20 by judd |
How can it be a cost?
What if the agent, if he/she wasn't an agent, did not buy a season ticket or go to any games at all?
Did he take into account how much of the commission went back into the club?
All of mine did. |
I completely agree.
Once again, all commissions were costs, whether they were left in the club or not. It appears to me that whatever could be construed as a cost, was a cost, no matter where it came from.
As I said, the figures being manipulated to suit their own ends. It a disgrace. | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:16 - Feb 20 with 1284 views | golfaduffy |
I must be going potty, but I recall the Trust saying (guessing late 2019) that there were 5500 members of the Lottery. Perhaps someone will find the stuff somewhere?
On the newsletter they sent out yesterday, it says there has been a steady increase to 2700 in September/October, and more recently 2900 members. They also point out that these figures are not the number of people, but the number of 50p, £1 and £2 entries.
So what has happened to the missing thousands of members during the past 14 months? | | | |
| Dale Trust Update on 20:24 - Feb 20 with 1258 views | 442Dale |
| Dale Trust Update on 20:16 - Feb 20 by golfaduffy |
I must be going potty, but I recall the Trust saying (guessing late 2019) that there were 5500 members of the Lottery. Perhaps someone will find the stuff somewhere?
On the newsletter they sent out yesterday, it says there has been a steady increase to 2700 in September/October, and more recently 2900 members. They also point out that these figures are not the number of people, but the number of 50p, £1 and £2 entries.
So what has happened to the missing thousands of members during the past 14 months? |
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/2019/11/goldbond-lotto-questions-submitted-to-the-cl
<<“ Q2, How many other existing members do we have
The club replied. Approximately 5,500 existing members.”>> |  |
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:40 - Feb 20 with 1226 views | 49thseason |
| Dale Trust Update on 19:49 - Feb 20 by Reedy |
I would like to explore this £165,000, that’s over £3,000 per week coming into the club in revenue. What used to come in six weeks, now takes a year.
My calculations:
Commission of 15% - £24,750
Season tickets - £20,000 (100 hundred season tickets, average saving of £200)
Wages - £30,000 (one full time member of staff and one part time, as it was in the last 12 months)
Prizes - £52,000
Results sheets - £0, paid for by advertising on the reverse side.
On the email from our CEO I spoke about earlier, he stated to me that some agents received more than 15% commission, I never knew of this, and would like to ask if anyone else does? Or is it another statement playing fast and loose with facts.
I’m struggling to think of any other costs, but if I’ve forgotten any, please let me know! All this taken into account, leaves the club with a profit of nearly £40,000 per year. Considerably less than the £75,000 per quarter spoken of earlier, but much better than £18,000 per annum.
I’m going to stick my head above the parapet and say the club have lied about the profit made from the old system, they manipulated the figures to suit their own means. This is just my opinion, I have no evidence of it, but in the same breath, the club have never released the figures around the £165,000 or the £20,000.
The fact that one man (an incredible man) used to collect more on his own, than the entire lottery does now, is damning and quite frankly, embarrassing for all those involved at the club.
When goldbond turned into the Dale lotto, the club persistently pushed direct debits, to the point where my members asked me if I was stopping collecting! None of my members signed up to direct debit, all were dead set against it, some of them didn’t even know what a direct debit was. When this was communicated back to the club by myself and other agents, the subject was changed. They thought they knew better. |
I wouldn't count season tickets as a cost other than printing them, we have 1000s of empty seats at just about every game. Giving them free to collectors is the least reward the club can offer, I bet many of them buy another ticket for a child partner etc and buy drinks and pies. They might even buy their own lottery tickets!
Its not as if there is ever a problem getting a ticket into a league game is it? Theatres often "paper the theatre" with cheap tickets for early sowings of a new production or to put bums on seats for the visit of a critic or reporter. |  | | |
| Dale Trust Update on 20:49 - Feb 20 with 1197 views | D_Alien |
To follow up on my earlier point about responsibility for lost income due to the change from Goldbond, would anyone like to hazard a guess at a ballpark figure for how much has been lost, based upon the last net income from Goldbond and the income since then? |  |
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| Dale Trust Update on 20:54 - Feb 20 with 1175 views | judd |
| Dale Trust Update on 20:49 - Feb 20 by D_Alien |
To follow up on my earlier point about responsibility for lost income due to the change from Goldbond, would anyone like to hazard a guess at a ballpark figure for how much has been lost, based upon the last net income from Goldbond and the income since then? |
Don't know if I could at the moment, but I would guess that Kilbys mob are taking more out of the Dale Lotto than Dale are. | |
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| Dale Trust Update on 21:25 - Feb 20 with 1111 views | EllDale |
It may be true that payment by cheque is the cheapest form of transaction but not always the quickest.
As I reported on another lottery thread last year I decided to cancel my direct debit for £4.33 per month as I was concerned about a third party running the lottery and a percentage going to a charity.
So that the club didn’t lose out I posted a cheque for £52 as a donation with a covering letter explaining my reasons.
The letter was posted on 22nd October and cleared my bank account on December 18th. I know that staff were on furlough but even so, two months to cash a cheque?
Oh, and my letter was addressed to the CEO. I never received any acknowledgement that it had been received. | | | |
| Dale Trust Update on 22:55 - Feb 20 with 1000 views | 49thseason |
| Dale Trust Update on 21:25 - Feb 20 by EllDale |
It may be true that payment by cheque is the cheapest form of transaction but not always the quickest.
As I reported on another lottery thread last year I decided to cancel my direct debit for £4.33 per month as I was concerned about a third party running the lottery and a percentage going to a charity.
So that the club didn’t lose out I posted a cheque for £52 as a donation with a covering letter explaining my reasons.
The letter was posted on 22nd October and cleared my bank account on December 18th. I know that staff were on furlough but even so, two months to cash a cheque?
Oh, and my letter was addressed to the CEO. I never received any acknowledgement that it had been received. |
Our CEO isn't fit for purpose. How can you not acknowledge a donation? I am afraid Bottom has indulged in a belief in his own self-importance to the detriment of his office. He likes the idea of being CEO of a football club more than he likes the work the job involves. The evidence is mounting that he has little fellow-feeling with most fans to the point of rudeness and sheer bad manners. I dare say he enjoys his moments on TV and attending EFL meetings much more than having to rub shoulders with anything vaguely resembling a supporter, much less one who was prepared to traipse out in the pouring rain to collect cash for the club he pretends to run. | | | |
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