| Northern Rail being renationalised on 11:36 - Jan 26 with 1712 views | D_Alien |
Rather, it's likely to be taken back into public ownership, since a regional railway network by it's very definition can't be "nationalised"
Probably the right decision, though
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 11:44]
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| Northern Rail being renationalised on 11:45 - Jan 26 with 1683 views | James1980 |
| Northern Rail being renationalised on 11:36 - Jan 26 by D_Alien |
Rather, it's likely to be taken back into public ownership, since a regional railway network by it's very definition can't be "nationalised"
Probably the right decision, though
[Post edited 26 Jan 2020 11:44]
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Added quotation marks to renationalised. From what I have read it does seem to be the right decision. |  |
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 12:25 - Jan 26 with 1616 views | Dalenet |
If half the challenges with Northern relate to the shambles called Network Rail then taking into Govt ownership will change nothing. I use LNER a lot and on both occasions that the Govt have had to take it back into their hands the investment in the proposition has been cut to the bone.
We need to scrap high speed 2 and rebuild the network across the North instead. | | | |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 13:02 - Jan 26 with 1557 views | D_Alien |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 12:25 - Jan 26 by Dalenet |
If half the challenges with Northern relate to the shambles called Network Rail then taking into Govt ownership will change nothing. I use LNER a lot and on both occasions that the Govt have had to take it back into their hands the investment in the proposition has been cut to the bone.
We need to scrap high speed 2 and rebuild the network across the North instead. |
But perhaps that's part of the reason why a spell under govt control might make sense, at least until the northern rail network has been revamped? Having the local services in-house should make the improvements needed easier to facilitate
Of course, your point about the dead hand of centralised control is a valid one, but on this occasion it does make some sense | |
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 14:44 - Jan 26 with 1439 views | KenBoon |
Northern Rail's issues stem from zero investment until recently and then chaos when they tried to grow the service on foundations of the 1990s ran-down BR. When Labour created the Northern franchise in the 00s (Merging North West(ern) with Northern Spirit and cherry picking the better routes for TPE). It was created under zero-growth agreement. It's operator didn't need to grow the service, just run it, and take that "small percentage" that is actually millions and millions from a publicly subsidised company. Public ownership won't improve much. TPE is next. For 20 years they've suffered from overcrowding that only gets worse and they're expected to increase commuter numbers further. |  | | |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 15:08 - Jan 26 with 1404 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 14:44 - Jan 26 by KenBoon |
Northern Rail's issues stem from zero investment until recently and then chaos when they tried to grow the service on foundations of the 1990s ran-down BR. When Labour created the Northern franchise in the 00s (Merging North West(ern) with Northern Spirit and cherry picking the better routes for TPE). It was created under zero-growth agreement. It's operator didn't need to grow the service, just run it, and take that "small percentage" that is actually millions and millions from a publicly subsidised company. Public ownership won't improve much. TPE is next. For 20 years they've suffered from overcrowding that only gets worse and they're expected to increase commuter numbers further. |
Northern rail have basically just given up though, their staff are demoralised, and have been badly let down . The company has not addressed recruitment, so they deliberately cancel services at the last minute to make travel with them a lottery. The franchise system doesn’t work, and I now read that Shapps intends to have closer links between train operations and track operations. Also going to reopen some closed lines in the north. |  |
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 16:15 - Jan 26 with 1335 views | onedalefan |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 12:25 - Jan 26 by Dalenet |
If half the challenges with Northern relate to the shambles called Network Rail then taking into Govt ownership will change nothing. I use LNER a lot and on both occasions that the Govt have had to take it back into their hands the investment in the proposition has been cut to the bone.
We need to scrap high speed 2 and rebuild the network across the North instead. |
Northern Rail problems around Manchester are due to - 1. Network Rail promised extra platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly - cancelled by Govt/Network Rail, 2. New timetable introduced when track upgrades promised - not completed on time by Network Rail, 3. Late training on initial 'new' stock (transferred from London) due to staff still needed for old retained stock - 'new' stock available late, 4. New stock introduced late - problems highlighted when delivered from supplier. 5. Insufficient staff available on Sundays - contracts allow staff to work Mon-Sat and volunteer for Sunday working West of the Pennines and has never been addressed. East of the Pennines contracts changed many years ago.
People seem to think that 'renationalising' will solve all the problems, it won't. A Friday with Northern Rail will be exactly the same on a Monday with Govt control. |  | | |
| (No subject) (n/t) on 16:33 - Jan 26 with 1305 views | KenBoon |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 15:08 - Jan 26 by rochdaleriddler |
Northern rail have basically just given up though, their staff are demoralised, and have been badly let down . The company has not addressed recruitment, so they deliberately cancel services at the last minute to make travel with them a lottery. The franchise system doesn’t work, and I now read that Shapps intends to have closer links between train operations and track operations. Also going to reopen some closed lines in the north. |
Totally agree. The way Northern have treated their conductors is a disgrace. As awful as the Northern service is, their staff have always been first-class with the exception of the rent-a-pricks they get to guard ticket gates and basically anyone untrained but cheaper than actually investing in your employees. It's the low-quality of these employees that makes the presence of conductors AS real conductors so important.
Back in the 90s and early 00s the excuses for cancellations was inevitably a shortage of units. Now - since Northern get the hand-me-downs nobody else wants - it's a lack of staff. Staff they never hire. Oh and staff training which seems to last forever because it's forever delayed.
I tried to commute daily using the South Fylde line once. It was impossible. One train an hour and peak time trains often cancelled. It's main problem is it's single track with no overtaking areas, so it cannot run more than an hourly service and even short delays mean a knock-on effect for hours, so they cancel a service to get things back on track.
People don't use it because it's unreliable. Since people don't use it due to it's poor service, it's difficult to get investment... but if it was reliable people would use it. It's the rock and a hard place. There's two solutions. First is to install overtaking areas (there's lots of room for these) to increase capacity and therefore reliability. Second is to close the line apart from for special events like the Lytham Proms or Bradford or Oldham away at Blackpool. There will be dozens of lines like this across the North. There is literally zero chance more than a handful will get any investment in the next 20 years. I was always a supporter of HS2 until its details were so underwhelming and benefits very small for about 0.1% of commuters. That's before you get to the costs and the inevitable cancellation/scaling back of the project.
Edit: Virgin Media being crap [Post edited 26 Jan 2020 16:33]
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 16:34 - Jan 26 with 1295 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 16:15 - Jan 26 by onedalefan |
Northern Rail problems around Manchester are due to - 1. Network Rail promised extra platforms 15/16 at Piccadilly - cancelled by Govt/Network Rail, 2. New timetable introduced when track upgrades promised - not completed on time by Network Rail, 3. Late training on initial 'new' stock (transferred from London) due to staff still needed for old retained stock - 'new' stock available late, 4. New stock introduced late - problems highlighted when delivered from supplier. 5. Insufficient staff available on Sundays - contracts allow staff to work Mon-Sat and volunteer for Sunday working West of the Pennines and has never been addressed. East of the Pennines contracts changed many years ago.
People seem to think that 'renationalising' will solve all the problems, it won't. A Friday with Northern Rail will be exactly the same on a Monday with Govt control. |
So why were the Sunday problems not apparent under the previous operator. I understand about the Piccadilly fiasco , but that doesn’t explain why under a butchered Sunday timetable, they run 2 carriages, when it could run four or six. I reckon they have deliberately cocked this up to get out of the contract | |
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 12:16 - Jan 27 with 1056 views | wimborne_dale |
Most left wing govt in decades  |  |
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 13:18 - Jan 27 with 1000 views | krafty80 |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 16:34 - Jan 26 by rochdaleriddler |
So why were the Sunday problems not apparent under the previous operator. I understand about the Piccadilly fiasco , but that doesn’t explain why under a butchered Sunday timetable, they run 2 carriages, when it could run four or six. I reckon they have deliberately cocked this up to get out of the contract |
As I understand it (with some professional expertise in this area), the current Northern franchise was let on the premise of government finally caving in and allowing new rolling stock to be ordered, but expecting/requiring that long standing back office issues be addressed. Chief among these were the T&Cs of staff, of which Northern has three different sets (east, west and ex-TransPennine staff).
On top of this, Arriva as winning bidder offered an even greater shift to Driver Controlled Operation (who pushes door button!) than government had asked for, which caused an industrial relations meltdown. As a result, the staff (or at least the union-centric minority) lost their incentive to 'play nice' and volunteer to work all those Sunday turns, which means Sunday shifts west of the hills are not getting filled as they were under the Serco/Abellio-run previous franchise.
While the papers will continue to talk of 'renationalisation', the reality is that all the levers affecting the reliability of rail services are already in the hands of the public sector, either via the Department for Transport or Network Rail (which are one and the same anyway). One exception is the leasing charges for Northern’s new trains, which are three to four times greater than for the much maligned Pacer trains (this is the main reason the government refused for decades to address the issue -- including, embarrassingly, the government which let the last Northern Rail contract in 2004, of which one Andy Burnham was a senior member).
Given that Northern Rail barely covers 1/3 of its costs from ticket revenue, and needs £600m annual subsidy, you can probably guess why so many trains in the region are only formed of 2 or 3 coaches. By comparison, Manchester Metrolink broadly breaks even every year, as I understand it.
One last point on guards: do passengers want the very narrowly defined railway role of guard on their train? Or maybe they actually just want properly trained railway staff in the actual seating area (not reading the paper in the back cab on the premise of ‘operational duties’) to provide information, help at disabled people at stations, combat antisocial behaviour etc? Discuss!
(And I do not mean to impugn the vast majority of railway staff by this post, who are fantastic, but neither is it credible to claim the railway doesn’t have a labour cost problem because it does). |  | | |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 14:15 - Jan 27 with 950 views | rochdaleriddler |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 13:18 - Jan 27 by krafty80 |
As I understand it (with some professional expertise in this area), the current Northern franchise was let on the premise of government finally caving in and allowing new rolling stock to be ordered, but expecting/requiring that long standing back office issues be addressed. Chief among these were the T&Cs of staff, of which Northern has three different sets (east, west and ex-TransPennine staff).
On top of this, Arriva as winning bidder offered an even greater shift to Driver Controlled Operation (who pushes door button!) than government had asked for, which caused an industrial relations meltdown. As a result, the staff (or at least the union-centric minority) lost their incentive to 'play nice' and volunteer to work all those Sunday turns, which means Sunday shifts west of the hills are not getting filled as they were under the Serco/Abellio-run previous franchise.
While the papers will continue to talk of 'renationalisation', the reality is that all the levers affecting the reliability of rail services are already in the hands of the public sector, either via the Department for Transport or Network Rail (which are one and the same anyway). One exception is the leasing charges for Northern’s new trains, which are three to four times greater than for the much maligned Pacer trains (this is the main reason the government refused for decades to address the issue -- including, embarrassingly, the government which let the last Northern Rail contract in 2004, of which one Andy Burnham was a senior member).
Given that Northern Rail barely covers 1/3 of its costs from ticket revenue, and needs £600m annual subsidy, you can probably guess why so many trains in the region are only formed of 2 or 3 coaches. By comparison, Manchester Metrolink broadly breaks even every year, as I understand it.
One last point on guards: do passengers want the very narrowly defined railway role of guard on their train? Or maybe they actually just want properly trained railway staff in the actual seating area (not reading the paper in the back cab on the premise of ‘operational duties’) to provide information, help at disabled people at stations, combat antisocial behaviour etc? Discuss!
(And I do not mean to impugn the vast majority of railway staff by this post, who are fantastic, but neither is it credible to claim the railway doesn’t have a labour cost problem because it does). |
I’m a believer in having a staff member actively involved in customer assistance on the train, I don’t think that having a driver and a guard constitutes a cost problem. Not collecting fares is a massive problem for Northern, I regularly travel to Hebden Bridge at the weekend, and rarely get asked to show my ticket , just getting a promise to pay ticket protects against accusations of fare dodging ! I do accept that not all of the issues are down to Northern solely | |
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| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 14:47 - Jan 27 with 929 views | KenBoon |
In my experience, guards have far more knowledge and understanding of managing a train, therefore perform better. The cheaper options run everything by their short training book, cannot manage situations with common sense, or have a CBA attitude. They remind me of bad football stewards.
Northern lose money because the network had not seen investment since the Pacers came out. I can only think of three new stations being built since the early 90s. There’s stations serving cows in fields where a mile down the track is where all the people live now. Installing the Ordsall Chord but not dealing with the congestion on platforms 13 and 14 at Piccadilly was stupid. Let’s be real though, there’s no way they were ever going to, or will do, that. | | | |
| Northern Rail being 'renationalised' on 13:30 - Jan 29 with 702 views | D_Alien |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-51298820
Now official
The article (for the time being) avoids the term "nationalised", using instead "public ownership" and "government control"
Edit: now been changed...
[Post edited 29 Jan 2020 14:31]
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