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Infection and hospital rates climbing rapidly. Death rates projected at 200 per day. Nearly 4m people at serious risk. New information coming out about the problems Covid cause the body if it doesn’t kill you. People laid up for the best part of a year with serious complications. Concern over the AstraZenica vaccine. Is it really wise to lift most of the restrictions on Monday? We have been told that we aren’t going back into another lockdown situation no matter what, but Whitty seems to think it might have to be on the cards.
[Post edited 18 Jul 2021 9:29]
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Third Covid Wave on 17:03 - Sep 17 with 1669 views
I am constantly castigated on here for not caring about public health, which is a misrepresentation, I am more concerned about vaccine injury and death amongst younger people specifically children though than the very old being knocked off their perch by a respiratory illness, however sad that may be, that is a natural outcome.
Finally people are talking about the dangers of this experimental vaccine. I know that upsets some of you, because you have taken it, but it is still a subject that needs urgent consideration in the light of the roll out to children and booster jabs.
We seem very competent in amassing data on a daily basis for covid deaths, hospitalisations and cases, but there does seem to be a rather poor stream of data in regards to vaccine side effects and deaths..3 months and no response is shocking in all honesty..I've seen this Christopher Chope video a while back..I wonder if it's been addressed properly now.
Funny enough mate I agree with you on a lot of stuff , when you compare the figures I agree there has been a big over reaction to the pandemic but what I dont agree with you is that its a big conspiracy. The biggest problem is the public...... they react and demand a solution from the the government and the government react to try and appease the majority.
The Delta variant is different to the ones we have seen before and I believe its true the measures we are using are overkill as the previous measures just dont have the same affect on this one.
Passports are pointless now , they can be faked , anything you show on a phone can be faked.
This disease is still a killer especially this Delta and its not a flu in my opinion , its much more deadlier. But to single out individuals is probably wrong now as I agree with the studies when they say viral loads between the vaccinated and un-vaccinated are similar if you do catch it. I agree a naturally caught COVID gives a better immunity than a vaccinated immunity. But that does not mean vaccines are not saving lives.
So in my opinion it comes down to personal responsibility , if you re 'at risk' you manage your life to that effect , don't put yourself at further risk , its your life after all , preserve it as you see fit.
If you consider yourself not at so much risk then you should be able to more or less live your life as pre 2020 levels. The odd shop saying you must wear a mask , respect that and dont make a point about it or dont shop there.
So I dont think you are a crazy 68 ( I think Jelly is a bit like Pluto...... far out there ) , but I just dont buy into this new world order , control the masses theories. I would say its more govt's being reactive to the general thoughts of the population , and bearing in mind its the older ( more at risk ) population who shouts loudest that would be my explanation to the sometimes draconian policies we are seeing.
Good evening Bison, been a good day for exchanges of views and opinions, I enjoyed reading yours as it does seem there is common ground in finding a lot of issues around covid being open to scrutiny..just seen the Christopher Chope video again that Jellybaby posted, and it is unnerving when even a sitting politician is unable to be forwarded highly relevant data that is vitally important for public vaccine confidence.
A lot of murky water out there sadly, hence people will look to clarify things that aren't as they seem.
It really doesn't help when you have meetings like the G7 where the staff wear masks and the dignitaries just Mill around without any protection in a show of elitism.
The government's chaotic nonsensical behaviour has been embarrassing with so many ridiculous advisements.
The fact that when masks were compulsory in bars restaurants you could have someone pour a drink pass it to someone else who then passed it to you to drink as was the case with food...I mean the intellect of this virus to avoid that scenario was Astonishing.
And even right now you can fly on a plane with say 10% of that aircraft under the age of 12 who don't have to wear a mask or need a test or even self isolate because the virus gives them free passage..
So many illogical elements to how why and when ppe should of been implemented, its all rather amateur hour at times.
Firstly you did indeed post an NHS bed occupancy statement earlier in this thread..that actually showed that 70% of those hospitalised in the over 50's with covid-19 were either single or double jabbed.
Children..I and obviously the JCVI feel that vaccination in under 16's isn't of benefit and the health implications of vaccine v non aren't enough to advise a blanket roll out.
Nadhim zahawi's comments lay in the realm of unethical as he is directly ignoring the body that makes those important decisions and removing a parents rights to protect their own children.
Moving forward regards bed occupancy, you state that it will be predominantly unvaccinated..however just looking at the heavily vaccinated 80.6% in Israel this doesn't marry up..current bed occupancy due to covid there shows 6/10 are double and triple jabbed..so that sort of invalidates your previous statement that its the unvaccinated being the majority of bed occupancy..we are approximately 2/3 months behind them in regards of vaccination roll out time wise.
I know you don't like the Swedish approach to the outbreak but maybe cast an eye over the vast differences between Israel and Sweden, very similar population sizes but vastly different outcomes with totally different approaches.
Thank you for a decent response..fresh air indeed.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2021 9:35]
The higher percentage of vaccinated in the hospital population was early in this Delta wave with a relatively short time span and small data set, though it was all that was available at the time, and was subsequently corrected as a mis statement. If you look at current data, my latest statement holds true. I think I provided relevant recent links.
We can agree on the ethics of telling 12 year old they an make up their own minds.
As pointed out previously, the truer Comparison For Sweden is Norway, Denmark and Finland, all relatively wealthy countries with geographically distributed populations, and with social consensus based governments and populations. You cannot keep picking unlike data sets for comparison and expect anyone to take your conclusions seriously. I have posted this before, but the Israel example still gets tossed on the table.
I am a great believer in allowing freedom of choice, but that is not to say that the consequences of those choices cannot be viewed and the choices challenged. That is how we learn and improve both as individuals and a society.
I volunteer at a vaccination centre, and over half of the walk ins are first jabbers who previously held back, so at least I see a shift towards what I view to be the sensible option.
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Third Covid Wave on 18:58 - Sep 18 with 1516 views
The higher percentage of vaccinated in the hospital population was early in this Delta wave with a relatively short time span and small data set, though it was all that was available at the time, and was subsequently corrected as a mis statement. If you look at current data, my latest statement holds true. I think I provided relevant recent links.
We can agree on the ethics of telling 12 year old they an make up their own minds.
As pointed out previously, the truer Comparison For Sweden is Norway, Denmark and Finland, all relatively wealthy countries with geographically distributed populations, and with social consensus based governments and populations. You cannot keep picking unlike data sets for comparison and expect anyone to take your conclusions seriously. I have posted this before, but the Israel example still gets tossed on the table.
I am a great believer in allowing freedom of choice, but that is not to say that the consequences of those choices cannot be viewed and the choices challenged. That is how we learn and improve both as individuals and a society.
I volunteer at a vaccination centre, and over half of the walk ins are first jabbers who previously held back, so at least I see a shift towards what I view to be the sensible option.
Evening Pap, I will engage on this subject tomorrow if that's OK bud, just going to enjoy an evening with family and friends and enjoy the great performance from the lads this afternoon.
Evening Pap, I will engage on this subject tomorrow if that's OK bud, just going to enjoy an evening with family and friends and enjoy the great performance from the lads this afternoon.
Have a great night.
[Post edited 18 Sep 2021 19:02]
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Third Covid Wave on 08:28 - Sep 19 with 1435 views
The higher percentage of vaccinated in the hospital population was early in this Delta wave with a relatively short time span and small data set, though it was all that was available at the time, and was subsequently corrected as a mis statement. If you look at current data, my latest statement holds true. I think I provided relevant recent links.
We can agree on the ethics of telling 12 year old they an make up their own minds.
As pointed out previously, the truer Comparison For Sweden is Norway, Denmark and Finland, all relatively wealthy countries with geographically distributed populations, and with social consensus based governments and populations. You cannot keep picking unlike data sets for comparison and expect anyone to take your conclusions seriously. I have posted this before, but the Israel example still gets tossed on the table.
I am a great believer in allowing freedom of choice, but that is not to say that the consequences of those choices cannot be viewed and the choices challenged. That is how we learn and improve both as individuals and a society.
I volunteer at a vaccination centre, and over half of the walk ins are first jabbers who previously held back, so at least I see a shift towards what I view to be the sensible option.
Good morning bud, I'm glad we can agree on the subject of not putting children at risk from possible side effects..there's probably not one of us that thinks the government ignoring the JCVI is the correct way forward currently
I use the Israel/Sweden scenario as that has also been used on several occasions in print form and on TV..mainly for there vastly diffent approaches.
Sweden has a population twice the size of any of its Scandinavian neighbours and as is well noted it kept the country in a relatively unchanged condition concerning lockdowns and social distancing..basically self policing and causing minimum harm to the economy and mental health, it also maintained its health care system for standard operational practices ( very important in the context of alleviating future issue)
The most alarming and as you have mentioned previously was the terrible mortality rate in care homes..with some even likening it to mass euthanasia..indeed we had the very same scenario in the UK last year.
We were told by Prof Whitty that the Barometer for getting the true picture of covid-19 would be once we had an annual excess mortality rate to show the real impact..which is the most logical manner to do so.
So looking at the excess mortality rates you are correct in stating Sweden was in fact far worse than its neighbours but importantly going forward it minimalised damage to its economy its citizens future health with normalised health care available , it let children be children and live without the burden of covid looming over them by sitting at home and being traumatised by never ending media scaremongering and brainwashing..no they lived a relatively normal life and they will benefit greatly from that in years to come.
No point in guessing the outcomes for excess mortality for this year but I'm sure they will be slightly higher..but I see excess deaths in the next few years to sky rocket as complications and reactions become more common place.
Incidentally 2020 was the 15th lowest year since the turn of the century in the UK for excess mortality...we were being told last Christmas that over 100000 had already perished at that point.
I find it very disturbing that a worldwide vaccine roll out with over 5.5 billion shots injected (allegedly) has the most inefficient data collection for adverse reactions side effects and deaths..why is this happening now but never before? Are we too busy saving lives to report correctly on these normally standard controls..I mean Christopher Chope repeatedly asking and no data available for over 3 months..how..why
See I understand that people have fallen ill and have died across the globe and any death from this virus is sad...but we aren't seeing the excess mortality in the amounts that many governments across the globe submit in they're briefings..the UK is some 60000 adrift from its rolling count it used on every outlet of every day to promote as much fear as possible.....
There is now the most horrific backlog in the UK for operations and procedures that could take half a decade or more to clear, and sadly there will be many thousand who will die or have died due to not getting the right treatment/diagnosis at the right time , an economic debt that is wildly out of control and will fall on the shoulders and from the pockets of those who have suffered the most through this past 18 months.
I appreciate that you do honestly feel that the vaccine is the way forward, I personally would of thought that the more sensible option would of been to vaccinate those most at risk and had a cooling-off period of 12 months to access the benefits..we should of concentrated on making the vulnerable as safe as possible by detailed care and financial support.
Well if I'm still alive when the 2021 excess mortality rates are published we'll have a catch up.
Good morning bud, I'm glad we can agree on the subject of not putting children at risk from possible side effects..there's probably not one of us that thinks the government ignoring the JCVI is the correct way forward currently
I use the Israel/Sweden scenario as that has also been used on several occasions in print form and on TV..mainly for there vastly diffent approaches.
Sweden has a population twice the size of any of its Scandinavian neighbours and as is well noted it kept the country in a relatively unchanged condition concerning lockdowns and social distancing..basically self policing and causing minimum harm to the economy and mental health, it also maintained its health care system for standard operational practices ( very important in the context of alleviating future issue)
The most alarming and as you have mentioned previously was the terrible mortality rate in care homes..with some even likening it to mass euthanasia..indeed we had the very same scenario in the UK last year.
We were told by Prof Whitty that the Barometer for getting the true picture of covid-19 would be once we had an annual excess mortality rate to show the real impact..which is the most logical manner to do so.
So looking at the excess mortality rates you are correct in stating Sweden was in fact far worse than its neighbours but importantly going forward it minimalised damage to its economy its citizens future health with normalised health care available , it let children be children and live without the burden of covid looming over them by sitting at home and being traumatised by never ending media scaremongering and brainwashing..no they lived a relatively normal life and they will benefit greatly from that in years to come.
No point in guessing the outcomes for excess mortality for this year but I'm sure they will be slightly higher..but I see excess deaths in the next few years to sky rocket as complications and reactions become more common place.
Incidentally 2020 was the 15th lowest year since the turn of the century in the UK for excess mortality...we were being told last Christmas that over 100000 had already perished at that point.
I find it very disturbing that a worldwide vaccine roll out with over 5.5 billion shots injected (allegedly) has the most inefficient data collection for adverse reactions side effects and deaths..why is this happening now but never before? Are we too busy saving lives to report correctly on these normally standard controls..I mean Christopher Chope repeatedly asking and no data available for over 3 months..how..why
See I understand that people have fallen ill and have died across the globe and any death from this virus is sad...but we aren't seeing the excess mortality in the amounts that many governments across the globe submit in they're briefings..the UK is some 60000 adrift from its rolling count it used on every outlet of every day to promote as much fear as possible.....
There is now the most horrific backlog in the UK for operations and procedures that could take half a decade or more to clear, and sadly there will be many thousand who will die or have died due to not getting the right treatment/diagnosis at the right time , an economic debt that is wildly out of control and will fall on the shoulders and from the pockets of those who have suffered the most through this past 18 months.
I appreciate that you do honestly feel that the vaccine is the way forward, I personally would of thought that the more sensible option would of been to vaccinate those most at risk and had a cooling-off period of 12 months to access the benefits..we should of concentrated on making the vulnerable as safe as possible by detailed care and financial support.
Well if I'm still alive when the 2021 excess mortality rates are published we'll have a catch up.
Lots of dramatic stats being circulated about the UK Covid's rates compared to the rest of the world, vaccine booster rollout doesn't seem to be steaming ahead, and my impression is that we've pretty much given up on any serious Covid mitigation attempts. A few masks in evidence in supermarkets but not anywhere else.
I caught Covid in September from my youngest son, after his return to school, had it mildly and am thankfully fully recovered. So, I am personally feeling reasonably relaxed about it, for now.
Just wondering what the general mood is? Are people still worried, or have we, as a country, now just accepted the high case rates and increasing hospital admission and death rates.
I can't see this government ever imposing another lockdown, so it is just a case of us holding onto our seats now during the winter months ahead?
This post is not intended as a dig at the govt - it is what it is - more just interested in what people are thinking, because we do seem to be in an unusual position as a country at the moment.
There were only a couple of us wearing masks in the supermarket the other day and there was a sign at the entrance saying that wearing masks is now a personal choice. The infection rate is climbing again locally and the mortality rate, whilst not as high as before, is still worrying. There is no supply of booster vaccines in my GP’s surgery at the moment. They have said that they will let us know as and when they get some. Local kids are frequently being sent home from school as the are regular outbreaks. It looks as though we are set to ride it out with a bumpy winter ahead.
Lots of dramatic stats being circulated about the UK Covid's rates compared to the rest of the world, vaccine booster rollout doesn't seem to be steaming ahead, and my impression is that we've pretty much given up on any serious Covid mitigation attempts. A few masks in evidence in supermarkets but not anywhere else.
I caught Covid in September from my youngest son, after his return to school, had it mildly and am thankfully fully recovered. So, I am personally feeling reasonably relaxed about it, for now.
Just wondering what the general mood is? Are people still worried, or have we, as a country, now just accepted the high case rates and increasing hospital admission and death rates.
I can't see this government ever imposing another lockdown, so it is just a case of us holding onto our seats now during the winter months ahead?
This post is not intended as a dig at the govt - it is what it is - more just interested in what people are thinking, because we do seem to be in an unusual position as a country at the moment.
I caught the train in on saturday and was the only one wearing a mask. At the footy there were no checks to see if you are double bagged. its rife in my kids school but they are not getting seriously ill.
So to be honest I think its time to live with it. The economy is screwed enough already so no more lock down and take your chances.
I just remain unconvinced that not anything we have done has made any difference, not the lockdowns, not the masks and not even the vaccines, and now we have to cope with the consequences arising from these measures. Focused protection would have been the right way imo.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
I just remain unconvinced that not anything we have done has made any difference, not the lockdowns, not the masks and not even the vaccines, and now we have to cope with the consequences arising from these measures. Focused protection would have been the right way imo.
Whilst I agree that the masks were more to do with giving people confidence, surely there is no doubt that the lockdown prevented a much higher mortality rate and the vaccines have also played their part in saving lives. Goodness knows where we would be now without them.
I just remain unconvinced that not anything we have done has made any difference, not the lockdowns, not the masks and not even the vaccines, and now we have to cope with the consequences arising from these measures. Focused protection would have been the right way imo.
Just look at the stats for Russia (where vaccinations are only 30% and mask wearing is virtually unseen) compared to the UK currently. Just look at the death rate against hospitalisation currently against the first wave. See how the UK case rate is accelerating in the adult population now that virtually nobody is wearing masks in busy enclosed spaces such as buses, trains and shops. We have already talked about the fact that 75% of hospitalisations with Covid are unvaccinated when they represent less than 25% of the adult population. Then try and give a logical argument how masks and vaccinations make no difference.
I know you believe fervently in what you say, but it is not based on anything credible that you have presented. Here's a clue, "Sheep" is not a credible answer.
Whilst I agree that the masks were more to do with giving people confidence, surely there is no doubt that the lockdown prevented a much higher mortality rate and the vaccines have also played their part in saving lives. Goodness knows where we would be now without them.
Focused protection would have avoided the old people's home disaster, the trashing of the economy, destroying our children's education and their rites of passage experiences and business heartache.
Covid Vaccines continue to worry me with under reporting of injury and death. I still prefer natural immunity at this stage. From my circle of contacts it is always the vaxxed that are getting Covid. The important thing is that we can all move on.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
Just look at the stats for Russia (where vaccinations are only 30% and mask wearing is virtually unseen) compared to the UK currently. Just look at the death rate against hospitalisation currently against the first wave. See how the UK case rate is accelerating in the adult population now that virtually nobody is wearing masks in busy enclosed spaces such as buses, trains and shops. We have already talked about the fact that 75% of hospitalisations with Covid are unvaccinated when they represent less than 25% of the adult population. Then try and give a logical argument how masks and vaccinations make no difference.
I know you believe fervently in what you say, but it is not based on anything credible that you have presented. Here's a clue, "Sheep" is not a credible answer.
You quote me Russia, I can quote you Sweden which has done better than UK despite no mask mandate and virtually no lockdown.
You quote me an increase in Covid cases because people are not wearing masks anymore, I can say 90% are vaxxed - I thought this was the "Golden ticket", maybe the jabs are causing a spike.
Our positions are pretty entrenched Berber. Did you know you could fit all the Coronavirus in the whole world inside a Coke can? If you did you may be more sceptical about the use of masks, which out of all the nonsense is the biggest nonsense.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
You quote me Russia, I can quote you Sweden which has done better than UK despite no mask mandate and virtually no lockdown.
You quote me an increase in Covid cases because people are not wearing masks anymore, I can say 90% are vaxxed - I thought this was the "Golden ticket", maybe the jabs are causing a spike.
Our positions are pretty entrenched Berber. Did you know you could fit all the Coronavirus in the whole world inside a Coke can? If you did you may be more sceptical about the use of masks, which out of all the nonsense is the biggest nonsense.
As you know, that is because is is very small. You could probably say the same about the Spanish Flu virus or any other virus that has killed countless millions of people over the centuries.
I suppose the good news is that when Nick started this thread back in July, there were predictions of 200 deaths a day, and we haven't reached that. As Berber says, the evidence that that this due to the vaccine is overwhelming. The evidence - particularly from those countries that did them promptly and properly - is also that lockdowns 'work'' too.
The next few weeks will be interesting, as there may come a point where the public consciousness around hospital admissions and deaths will come into conflict with, I'm pretty sure, the govt's absolute determination not to lockdown again.
Hopefully admissions and death rates will flatline through the winter.
Over the last week Southampton has recorded its highest ever daily covid positive cases. There are at least 30,000 individuals, who havent had the covid jab. The major transmission route from students in schools/colleges to parents et all. Total madness that in various settings it became optional to wear a mask.
I think the winter will bring an increase in respiratory illness and lockdown will be threatened and avoided by the take up of a vaccine passport system which leads to a bio medical security state. Job done. Lets see how it goes.
I wholly disapprove of what you say and will defend to the death your right to say it.
Amazed there are still covid idiots that think this is all a conspiracy. Theyve been wrong on every turn and have been a danger to public health. Dickheads like Matt le tissier, who thinks he can just stop spreading misinformation and it will all be forgotten. I wonder how many have died or got serious long term illness because of pricks like le tissier ?
I suppose the good news is that when Nick started this thread back in July, there were predictions of 200 deaths a day, and we haven't reached that. As Berber says, the evidence that that this due to the vaccine is overwhelming. The evidence - particularly from those countries that did them promptly and properly - is also that lockdowns 'work'' too.
The next few weeks will be interesting, as there may come a point where the public consciousness around hospital admissions and deaths will come into conflict with, I'm pretty sure, the govt's absolute determination not to lockdown again.
Hopefully admissions and death rates will flatline through the winter.
I spoke a bit too soon with that last post.
Today's daily deaths figure was 223. It's not a 'rolling average' figure yet, but even so.
Cancer,heart disease,dementia,suicide absolutely anhilatinng the mortality figures and yet the obsession with a flu outbreak consumes you all .get a fukin grip...its absolute coercion and control .nothing more nothing less..raise your heads above the parapet and think logically instead of consuming the horrendous negative outbreak bile ..you are all gown men.. start to actually question the situation instead of blindly accepting it ..adverse deaths..do the maths...oh and expect 60,000 flu deaths this winter as we skipped a year...honestly wake the fuk up!!!!. It's becoming implausible and embarrassing.
Cancer,heart disease,dementia,suicide absolutely anhilatinng the mortality figures and yet the obsession with a flu outbreak consumes you all .get a fukin grip...its absolute coercion and control .nothing more nothing less..raise your heads above the parapet and think logically instead of consuming the horrendous negative outbreak bile ..you are all gown men.. start to actually question the situation instead of blindly accepting it ..adverse deaths..do the maths...oh and expect 60,000 flu deaths this winter as we skipped a year...honestly wake the fuk up!!!!. It's becoming implausible and embarrassing.
Would you mind starting a separate thread about your Covid 'coercion and control' theories?
It would give all those who share your world view a chance to engage with you, without the rest of us having to ignore you or call you a crackpot.
It’s not a flu outbreak. It can have a far more devastating effect on the body’s organs than flu. Your strange infatuation with conspiracy theories is becoming tiresome. Yes, we are grown men, and grown men don’t spend their time spreading debunked conspiracies on the internet.
Come on then brainiac..let's see these excessively high death rates plastered all over every news channel courtesy of the NHS over the past 20 months .they don't correlate...just show me what they claimed and the reality.....you won't be able to Ian..they don't marry up ...just accept it hey bud..thats where you feel safest isn't it hun X
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