| Ralph, Semmens and Steele 18:05 - Aug 10 with 2184 views | Sadoldgit |
Answering fans questions tonight. Perhaps we shall hear more about the club’s ambitions (if anyone asks that question). |  | | |  |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 19:40 - Aug 10 with 2064 views | Monksway |
Same as usual, consistency, financial viability, some special moments - top 10 finish. I was 8 when I went to my first Saints match ( I'm 63 now) - these are as good as it gets for a club our size. It can often be much worse and only occasionally significantly better. I thought they all spoke well, realistic, measured and intelligent. COYS. |  | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:29 - Aug 10 with 1907 views | dirk_doone |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 19:40 - Aug 10 by Monksway |
Same as usual, consistency, financial viability, some special moments - top 10 finish. I was 8 when I went to my first Saints match ( I'm 63 now) - these are as good as it gets for a club our size. It can often be much worse and only occasionally significantly better. I thought they all spoke well, realistic, measured and intelligent. COYS. |
I'm also in my 60s and I think it's about time we had our Leicester or Nott Forest or Blackburn etc moment.
For a club of our size, with our fanbase and attendances, we are probably the most underachieving team in the country.
That doesn't mean we should just give up and accept it though. As all of the other clubs our size have shown, this is NOT as good as it gets for a club of our size. Most clubs of our size have won at least 4 major trophies. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 10:12]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:34 - Aug 10 with 1893 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:29 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
I'm also in my 60s and I think it's about time we had our Leicester or Nott Forest or Blackburn etc moment.
For a club of our size, with our fanbase and attendances, we are probably the most underachieving team in the country.
That doesn't mean we should just give up and accept it though. As all of the other clubs our size have shown, this is NOT as good as it gets for a club of our size. Most clubs of our size have won at least 4 major trophies. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 10:12]
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I think that Crystal Palace are bigger under achievers Dirk. | | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:39 - Aug 10 with 1884 views | dirk_doone |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:34 - Aug 10 by Sadoldgit |
I think that Crystal Palace are bigger under achievers Dirk. |
No, they are NOT. We are a bigger club than them, with a much bigger fanbase and bigger attendances. They spent 36 years in the bottom two divisions and had average home gates of 6,000 as recently as the 1980s. One of our problems as a club is that we have unambitious fans who want to downgrade us to be a smaller club like them and that message gets through to the owners. We are not. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 21:47]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:54 - Aug 10 with 1839 views | Kennington |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:39 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
No, they are NOT. We are a bigger club than them, with a much bigger fanbase and bigger attendances. They spent 36 years in the bottom two divisions and had average home gates of 6,000 as recently as the 1980s. One of our problems as a club is that we have unambitious fans who want to downgrade us to be a smaller club like them and that message gets through to the owners. We are not. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 21:47]
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Absolutely agree. I see in saints a club with huge possibilities, academy, catchment etc. Yet our fanbase on the whole has a Dell sized mentality. As soon as Cortese came along people couldn’t handle it and relentlessly picked faults (and there were faults) rather than as Adkins would say get on the bus with growing the club. | |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:01 - Aug 10 with 1820 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 21:39 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
No, they are NOT. We are a bigger club than them, with a much bigger fanbase and bigger attendances. They spent 36 years in the bottom two divisions and had average home gates of 6,000 as recently as the 1980s. One of our problems as a club is that we have unambitious fans who want to downgrade us to be a smaller club like them and that message gets through to the owners. We are not. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 21:47]
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What have they won? | | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:05 - Aug 10 with 1807 views | dirk_doone |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:01 - Aug 10 by Sadoldgit |
What have they won? |
What have Barnsley won? What have Accrington Stanley won?
Why would you want to compare us with smaller clubs? Why not compare us to clubs of our size, like Leicester, Derby and Nottingham Forest, and ask what they have won?
I said "for a club of our size, with our fanbase and our attendances". [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:08]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:11 - Aug 10 with 1780 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:05 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
What have Barnsley won? What have Accrington Stanley won?
Why would you want to compare us with smaller clubs? Why not compare us to clubs of our size, like Leicester, Derby and Nottingham Forest, and ask what they have won?
I said "for a club of our size, with our fanbase and our attendances". [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:08]
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Because I group Palace along with us, Villa, Newcastle and a host of other mid table Prem teams. | | | |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:27 - Aug 10 with 1757 views | dirk_doone |
I said, "for a club of our size". Villa and Newcastle are bigger than us; Palace are smaller.
Villa have won 20 major trophies, including the European Cup, and Newcastle have won 12 (for a club of their size - bigger than us, they probably should have won even more than that).
Clubs of our size are Leicester (5 major trophies) and Nott Forest (9). We have a similar sized fanbase and historical attendances to them and have won just one. Even Little Pompey have won 4.
We have underachieved. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:33]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:29 - Aug 10 with 1749 views | Bicester_North |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:27 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
I said, "for a club of our size". Villa and Newcastle are bigger than us; Palace are smaller.
Villa have won 20 major trophies, including the European Cup, and Newcastle have won 12 (for a club of their size - bigger than us, they probably should have won even more than that).
Clubs of our size are Leicester (5 major trophies) and Nott Forest (9). We have a similar sized fanbase and historical attendances to them and have won just one. Even Little Pompey have won 4.
We have underachieved. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:33]
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Stoke are the only one about our size who have been as unsuccessful with trophies. Although even they are from a 2 club city. | |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:36 - Aug 10 with 1726 views | dirk_doone |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:29 - Aug 10 by Bicester_North |
Stoke are the only one about our size who have been as unsuccessful with trophies. Although even they are from a 2 club city. |
They have a much smaller fanbase and are way below us in the all-time attendance table in spite of the fact that we were hindered by the limited capacity of the Dell:
https://www.nufc.com/html/2018-19html/attendance-all-time.html
I think the danger is that we start to compare ourselves with the clubs that have won as few trophies as we have (1) rather than the clubs that are the same size as us with a similar sized fanbase. i.e. thinking small rather than having the aspirations that other clubs of our size have. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:46]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:42 - Aug 10 with 1710 views | Bicester_North |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:36 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
They have a much smaller fanbase and are way below us in the all-time attendance table in spite of the fact that we were hindered by the limited capacity of the Dell:
https://www.nufc.com/html/2018-19html/attendance-all-time.html
I think the danger is that we start to compare ourselves with the clubs that have won as few trophies as we have (1) rather than the clubs that are the same size as us with a similar sized fanbase. i.e. thinking small rather than having the aspirations that other clubs of our size have. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:46]
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Only just over 1000 less average in this table, whereas Ipswich are closer but I’d consider them a smaller club than us or Stoke
https://fanbanter.co.uk/how-englands-top-four-divisions-look-based-on-all-time-a
Forest, Derby, Leicester, Middlesbrough, WBA, Stoke, Sheff U, Coventry, possibly Norwich, all about our level in my opinion. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:44]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:51 - Aug 10 with 1691 views | dirk_doone |
This one has long been considered the gold standard although it does need updating, which would put us above Derby:
https://www.nufc.com/html/2018-19html/attendance-all-time.html
The point is, for a club of our size, in terms of trophies won, we have clearly underachieved but that doesn't mean we should downgrade our expectations to those of smaller clubs who have won as few trophies as we have (1). [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:54]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 07:18 - Aug 11 with 1470 views | JaySaint |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:11 - Aug 10 by Sadoldgit |
Because I group Palace along with us, Villa, Newcastle and a host of other mid table Prem teams. |
Villa? Villa?
Are are miles bigger than Saints (and most other clubs in the country) | |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 10:01 - Aug 11 with 1332 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:27 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
I said, "for a club of our size". Villa and Newcastle are bigger than us; Palace are smaller.
Villa have won 20 major trophies, including the European Cup, and Newcastle have won 12 (for a club of their size - bigger than us, they probably should have won even more than that).
Clubs of our size are Leicester (5 major trophies) and Nott Forest (9). We have a similar sized fanbase and historical attendances to them and have won just one. Even Little Pompey have won 4.
We have underachieved. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:33]
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I have never said that we have not underachieved!
Also how do you define a big, medium or small club? Surely it isn’t just crowd size?
For me we’re are a medium sized PL club along with the others mentioned but really who cares?
I’d rather have our record than many other clubs records. | | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 10:23 - Aug 11 with 1310 views | DorsetIan |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:51 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
This one has long been considered the gold standard although it does need updating, which would put us above Derby:
https://www.nufc.com/html/2018-19html/attendance-all-time.html
The point is, for a club of our size, in terms of trophies won, we have clearly underachieved but that doesn't mean we should downgrade our expectations to those of smaller clubs who have won as few trophies as we have (1). [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:54]
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Interesting table.
Is one of the issues that's become harder to win things since the advent of the Premier League and the dominance of the top 4/6 clubs. Lots of the comparable teams that have won more than us did so in the dim and distant past when arguably it was all a bit more competitive and when there were periods when teams of a similar size had their heydays, meaning that anyone who didn't catch some silverware back in the day may always now be statistically behind.
If you start in 1992 with the beginning of the Premier League, which clubs could be said to have 'achieved' in these terms? Not too many.
Another point is that over these last few years, many of the teams on that list have dropped out of contention completely. The top 9 on the list are all currently in the Premier League, but if you take the next 21 down to No.30, only 6 are now in the top flight - Leeds, West Ham, Wolves, Leicester, Southampton, Norwich - and many of the rest seem a long way from ever returning.
You could argue that 'achievement' over the last 30 years has been to remain in the top flight.
But I agree, of course, that we could and should be more ambitious. Gao out! | |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 11:29 - Aug 11 with 1251 views | SaintNick |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 10:23 - Aug 11 by DorsetIan |
Interesting table.
Is one of the issues that's become harder to win things since the advent of the Premier League and the dominance of the top 4/6 clubs. Lots of the comparable teams that have won more than us did so in the dim and distant past when arguably it was all a bit more competitive and when there were periods when teams of a similar size had their heydays, meaning that anyone who didn't catch some silverware back in the day may always now be statistically behind.
If you start in 1992 with the beginning of the Premier League, which clubs could be said to have 'achieved' in these terms? Not too many.
Another point is that over these last few years, many of the teams on that list have dropped out of contention completely. The top 9 on the list are all currently in the Premier League, but if you take the next 21 down to No.30, only 6 are now in the top flight - Leeds, West Ham, Wolves, Leicester, Southampton, Norwich - and many of the rest seem a long way from ever returning.
You could argue that 'achievement' over the last 30 years has been to remain in the top flight.
But I agree, of course, that we could and should be more ambitious. Gao out! |
That word "Ambition" again
How do you define the word ambition.
For most it seems to be about our willingness to spend big money, in most cases money we haven't got, because we dont spend over £20 million on a player we are not ambitious.
The problem is that in the Premier League there are at least 12 maybe 13 clubs who have more money than us and bigger attendances.
We sit at 14th in the pecking order in terms of resources, so like it or not we start this season not with a lack of ambition but knowing that if all things are equal then we finish 14th.
We have to do something different than spending money and that means finding value for money, we have to find the Championship striker chomping at the bit we cannot afford to buy in a player for £40 million.
The least ambitious manager we have ever had has been Lawrie McMenemy , he would never brag about what is teams were going to achieve, he would play it all down, say we knew what we had to to and what we wanted to achieve and then quietly get on with doing it.
Back then we seemed to like that approach, no boasting like our friends down the other end of the M27, just a quiet confidence that we had a plan and we were going to stick with it. |  |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 11:50 - Aug 11 with 1224 views | BLEEDRED |
Interesting that at last night's forum, the figure of £30 million for Ings was mentioned a few times. So most would consider that a good deal for someone in the last year of their contract | | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 11:57 - Aug 11 with 1213 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 11:50 - Aug 11 by BLEEDRED |
Interesting that at last night's forum, the figure of £30 million for Ings was mentioned a few times. So most would consider that a good deal for someone in the last year of their contract |
I read yesterday that Villa were after Tammy Abraham but changed their minds when they saw the total price. Desperate to bring in a ‘name’ to appease the fans they went for Ings instead and it was all done in 48 hours. The money was too good for the Board to turn down for a player in Ings’ situation apparently. | | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 12:05 - Aug 11 with 1205 views | DorsetIan |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 11:29 - Aug 11 by SaintNick |
That word "Ambition" again
How do you define the word ambition.
For most it seems to be about our willingness to spend big money, in most cases money we haven't got, because we dont spend over £20 million on a player we are not ambitious.
The problem is that in the Premier League there are at least 12 maybe 13 clubs who have more money than us and bigger attendances.
We sit at 14th in the pecking order in terms of resources, so like it or not we start this season not with a lack of ambition but knowing that if all things are equal then we finish 14th.
We have to do something different than spending money and that means finding value for money, we have to find the Championship striker chomping at the bit we cannot afford to buy in a player for £40 million.
The least ambitious manager we have ever had has been Lawrie McMenemy , he would never brag about what is teams were going to achieve, he would play it all down, say we knew what we had to to and what we wanted to achieve and then quietly get on with doing it.
Back then we seemed to like that approach, no boasting like our friends down the other end of the M27, just a quiet confidence that we had a plan and we were going to stick with it. |
I'm sure that there are many definitions and but I'm happy with an elephant test - 'you know it when you see it'.
Even if you took the barest minimal meaning of 'ambitious' it would have to involve a real intent, backed up by a workable plan, to improve the team year on year.
A club that is happy to sit forever at 14th is not ambitious. Just like a person happy to stay in the same job on the same salary is not 'ambitious'. And don't get me wrong, that might be the right choice for that person, but you couldn't call them 'ambitious'.
Reading everything you write, might it be more honest of you to accept that you are not ambitious for the club.? As long as we stay at the same 14th ish place in the League, you will be happy. And that's why you are happy with Gao, because that would seem to be the upper limit of his hopes for the club too. | |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 12:17 - Aug 11 with 1180 views | pjt50 |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 22:27 - Aug 10 by dirk_doone |
I said, "for a club of our size". Villa and Newcastle are bigger than us; Palace are smaller.
Villa have won 20 major trophies, including the European Cup, and Newcastle have won 12 (for a club of their size - bigger than us, they probably should have won even more than that).
Clubs of our size are Leicester (5 major trophies) and Nott Forest (9). We have a similar sized fanbase and historical attendances to them and have won just one. Even Little Pompey have won 4.
We have underachieved. [Post edited 10 Aug 2021 22:33]
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What do you mean by fan-base? Attendance, or something else? Historically we come 56th in the list of all-time record attendances per club:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_record_home_attendances_of_English_footbal
For most of our history we were totally off the pace, so it's not very meaningful to compare all-time achievement. Were we underachieving when we were in Division 1 with a ground that held 15,000?
Maybe there's an argument that we were slow to build a bigger ground but even filling the ground we had was a rarity for most of our history. [Post edited 11 Aug 2021 13:02]
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 12:36 - Aug 11 with 1149 views | Sadoldgit |
Why isn’t finishing as high as you can and aiming for good cup runs not ambitious? Even remaining in the land of milk and honey (the Premier) could be classed as an ambition. I would prefer reality to Cortese selling us a dream of CL football that was a pipe dream for a club like us without huge financial backing. | | | |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 13:09 - Aug 11 with 1094 views | Butty101 |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 11:50 - Aug 11 by BLEEDRED |
Interesting that at last night's forum, the figure of £30 million for Ings was mentioned a few times. So most would consider that a good deal for someone in the last year of their contract |
Yeah I heard the 30mill banded about on the forum. That is good for a 29year old crock that had 1 year left of his contract.
by my reckoning the club has circa 10mill to spend |  |
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| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 13:43 - Aug 11 with 1058 views | DorsetIan |
| Ralph, Semmens and Steele on 12:36 - Aug 11 by Sadoldgit |
Why isn’t finishing as high as you can and aiming for good cup runs not ambitious? Even remaining in the land of milk and honey (the Premier) could be classed as an ambition. I would prefer reality to Cortese selling us a dream of CL football that was a pipe dream for a club like us without huge financial backing. |
Realist, pragmatic, hopeful fine. But that doesn't sound like ambition to me.
And the trouble with the Premier League is that if your only desire is to stand still eventually you are going to get overtaken by clubs who have a more ambitious plan. | |
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