| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR 10:12 - Dec 20 with 3185 views | saint901 |
I've not really caught up with the weekend's football yet but there were a number of incidents in which the ref and/or the VAR crew were clearly wrong.
Spurs - Liverpool
1. Kane tackle. If that was seen by VAR it was a red card. If Kane was a journeyman defender from the lower half of the PL it was a red card. Ref sees England captain and only a yellow.
2. Jiota being barged in the back. Nailed on penalty.
3. Alli diving in the box. Nailed on yellow.
4. Robertson sending off was absolutely correct but I suspect he was frustrated by some of the decisions. (We saw something similar in our game with Brighton when their bought a free kick by going to ground and managed to dislocate his elbow).
5. In the City/Newcastle game, the City keeper should have been red carded. May not have bene a penalty as the ball was gone, but still dangerous play.
We have fans and pundits and journalists all saying that the refs are being exposed by VAR errors which is compounding their own real time errors. I have sympathy for refs on the field in most situations and this season they have been told to use less whistle, but VAR is there and they should be given more help. |  | | |  |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 10:41 - Dec 20 with 2193 views | 1885_SFC |
I've never laughed so much during a game as I did yesterday. Proof, if it were ever needed, that VAR is a total waste of time. Someone should have done a breath test on the VAR ref. I think he'd been on the Xmas sherry a bit early. None of the incidents yesterday were as hilarious as Kyle Walker's kung fu chop and then wrestle of Adam Armstrong to the ground. That one will take the biscuit forever more. |  |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 10:45 - Dec 20 with 2187 views | SaintNick |
As I said in another thread, although Tierney had an awful game he was hung out to dry by whoever was running VAR.
1, The Kane tackle was bad but the ref sees a yellow as it happened in quicktime, VAR should have pulled him up on it and brought him to the monitor as they did with Robertson later in the game, both were identical in that the ref gave a yellow as he saw it but those on VAT chose which he would look at on the monitor.
2, Jiota penalty again to the naked eye it was hard to detect, but on video it was blatant, again Tierney let down by VAR team whho should have got him to look at it.
3. Ali diving I agree nailed on yellow, but virtually no refs actually enforce this rule, if they did then diving would stop quite quickly |  |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:01 - Dec 20 with 2130 views | saint901 |
Now I've also seen Arsenal's Xhaka stamp on the Leeds player's ankle and nothinh happens, even though not a minute before he blatantly stands in front of a free kick to stop it being taken. A few minutes later a young Leeds lad make a lunge, connects with the Arsenal player and gets booked!
WT actual F!!!
I feel for the refs (perhaps because I used to be a local league one) but VAR is exposing them | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:18 - Dec 20 with 2124 views | ElijahK |
Sorry but the arrogance of some is unbelievable sometimes. If you’ve actually been a ref then you’ll know it’s not an easy job to do, as I’m on the Wessex league and actually know what it’s like to be in their position. As other than Like Dean and John Moss (also maybe Kevin Friend/Atkinson), most PL refs are actually quite decent, but it’s more VAR that’s been letting them down recently.
As 3 of the 5 points you’ve made are incorrect anyway, as you can’t book a player for simulation if theirs contact (aka the Ali incident) as a player can argue that the contact made them go down, wether it’s enough for a foul or not is up to the ref, but unless there’s no real contact (which there was as Trent was sticking out his hand) then you can’t book them for simulation.
But yeah Kane should’ve been sent off, but that’s VAR’s fault, as when I saw it on sky for the first time, I thought it was just a yellow, but only after seeing it multiple times from different angles did I realise that actually it is a red, as originally I didn’t see James studs up, which is where VAR should come in and help.
Similar situation with the Newcastle incident, as from the refs angle, he could’ve easily seen that as an exaggeration/dive, but that’s when VAR should’ve intervened as yeah it was a pen, but if the Newcastle guy wanted to stay on his feet then he’d of been able to.
And with Robertson, I don’t get your point as it’s like us refs are here to make everyone happy, and just like players, we make mistakes too (but other than the Kane red card incident, he didn’t make any major mistakes for any of the main incidents), and that’s no excuse to go and do a red card tackle.
But this whole Jota incident is embarrassing to football as the Spurs guy has gone into the side of him for a shoulder barge, and Jota was looking for it, hence why he went down soo easily. As football is a contact sport, and seeing how it was just a shoulder barge, with nothing else (as in no sticking our arms/tripping’s up), as if that had been back in the 90’s then no one would’ve called for that to be a penalty.
As at the end of the day, other than a few refs here and there, most of the refs actually do their jobs quite well, hence why it’s soo hard/takes soo long to get to a level 1a ref (aka Premier League), as it’s very easy to criticise a ref, but quite hard to actually do the job they do, with hundreds of thousands watching them. As like I’ve already said, other than a few refs who consistently mess up, most are actually pretty decent, it’s just they don’t get much praise when they do have a decent game, but are highlighted when they mess up, as well as just one ref messing up, which can reflect badly on all the PL refs, which just isn’t right. Especially when the criticisms is for things they got right (sheesh I still remember after the West Ham game how people had a go at the ref for not playing advantage for the second Antonio yellow, when in the LOTG he was completely right in doing so). As in the end, yeah it was a red for Kane, and was a pen for Newcastle, but that was it, and that’s not something which you should review the whole of VAR over. | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:24 - Dec 20 with 2115 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 10:45 - Dec 20 by SaintNick |
As I said in another thread, although Tierney had an awful game he was hung out to dry by whoever was running VAR.
1, The Kane tackle was bad but the ref sees a yellow as it happened in quicktime, VAR should have pulled him up on it and brought him to the monitor as they did with Robertson later in the game, both were identical in that the ref gave a yellow as he saw it but those on VAT chose which he would look at on the monitor.
2, Jiota penalty again to the naked eye it was hard to detect, but on video it was blatant, again Tierney let down by VAR team whho should have got him to look at it.
3. Ali diving I agree nailed on yellow, but virtually no refs actually enforce this rule, if they did then diving would stop quite quickly |
Fair enough Nick, as at least you get the whole issue is more around VAR, rather than the ref’s, but as I just said, you don’t/can’t book someone for simulation if theirs contact, hence why he wasn’t, and the Kane situation was VAR’s fault, not Tierney’s. But the penalty incident just shows of why VAR isn’t ever gonna sort out situations like that as if I was doing VAR that day, then I myself wouldn’t have given a pen ether as I’ve never seen that as a pen over all the years I’ve officiated over, and doubt I will ever change my mind on it.
But that’s why I personally as a fan/ref, think that VAR should only be used for back and white situations, ones in which people can’t argue with, like offsides, mistaken identity, W there it was in or out of the box etc, as you’ll always get debates over quite a few penalties, even when many (but not all) agree on the decision, as in the LOTG, it’s all down to interpretation. | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:25 - Dec 20 with 2108 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:01 - Dec 20 by saint901 |
Now I've also seen Arsenal's Xhaka stamp on the Leeds player's ankle and nothinh happens, even though not a minute before he blatantly stands in front of a free kick to stop it being taken. A few minutes later a young Leeds lad make a lunge, connects with the Arsenal player and gets booked!
WT actual F!!!
I feel for the refs (perhaps because I used to be a local league one) but VAR is exposing them |
That Arsenal incident wasn’t a red, as even Liniker and such agreed that it was just a yellow that the ref missed (and VAR can’t intervene for yellow cards). | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:32 - Dec 20 with 2102 views | saint901 |
I stopped being a ref a long time ago and was never as high as the Wessex League. Mainly village stuff and Sunday morning. I stopped after I sent a player off for throwing the ball at me and then he followed me in his car as I left the ground. My family doesn't need that kind of attention.
I accept therefore that my knowledge of the rules is not as up to date as it could be.
The Robertson sending off was justified but originally he produced a yellow. It was obvious to the whole stadium that it was red.
The Kane decision was just wrong - it was red all day long.
The Alli dive was obvious and blatant. If the rule is that "any" contact means it cannot be simulation, then the rule is an ass.
The Newcastle incident I thought was actually not a penalty because by the time the contact was made, the Newcastle player had lost the ball. I did though think it was dangerous play and I would have dismissed the keeper.
Probably explains why I'm not a ref now? | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:39 - Dec 20 with 2088 views | dwayne_dibley |
In reality it is all about how much each club "bungs" the officials involved |  |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:48 - Dec 20 with 2076 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:32 - Dec 20 by saint901 |
I stopped being a ref a long time ago and was never as high as the Wessex League. Mainly village stuff and Sunday morning. I stopped after I sent a player off for throwing the ball at me and then he followed me in his car as I left the ground. My family doesn't need that kind of attention.
I accept therefore that my knowledge of the rules is not as up to date as it could be.
The Robertson sending off was justified but originally he produced a yellow. It was obvious to the whole stadium that it was red.
The Kane decision was just wrong - it was red all day long.
The Alli dive was obvious and blatant. If the rule is that "any" contact means it cannot be simulation, then the rule is an ass.
The Newcastle incident I thought was actually not a penalty because by the time the contact was made, the Newcastle player had lost the ball. I did though think it was dangerous play and I would have dismissed the keeper.
Probably explains why I'm not a ref now? |
Yeah well unfortunately many fans/players will be like that sometimes, and that’s what causes many refs to stop officiating, as well as all the abuse they can get, hence why their are referee shortages for the lower leagues. But as someone who’s got mental differences which caused many bullying issues when I was younger, I’m used to get that sort of stick form people, but that I guess 8s just where people’s opinions/personalities differ.
But as someone who’s a bit younger, and actually could get somewhere with officiating, it can be quite frustrating when one ref messing up reflects badly on all of us, or especially when a ref gets a decision right but is criticised for it because it’s opinionated/the fans don’t know the LOTG. As the Newcastle one was rather reckless than dangerous (so a yellow rather than a red) as late tackles are yellows (for situations like this), but for it to be a red it needs to be endangering an opponent, and the keeper taking out the legs of an opponent with just his body (so no studs up and not too major of any forces) is reckless not serious foul play.
But as a fan as well as a ref, I do get where you guys come from most of the time, it’s just I do think that fans are too critical on officials and don’t ever give credit when they do well, which I don’t necessarily expect, but then again, fans can’t really complain as much when they’re actually the ones in the wrong (like the Ali dive, second yellow for Antonio/advantage or even the Jota pen for me), as unless it’s blatant like the martial dive in the Man U game that Bednerak got sent off for/the clear foul on Armstrong when we played Man City, then it’s usually just an opinionated incident/ones where the LOTG state the correct answer in which the fans don’t know. | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 13:31 - Dec 20 with 2018 views | saint901 |
There's often a comparison between Rugby and football in terms of refs and players attitudes.
Both rugby codes appear to have cracked the VAR thing. The onfield ref is allowed to view the incident and hear what the VAR official is saying but the decision is his and is heard by the TV viewer at least and no doubt by the coaches and fans shortly afterwards.
Why can't football do that? Why con't refs hold conferences after a match to explain their view of incidents? (The Tierney comment that Jiota had stopped and therefore invited contact and wanted the penalty is ludicrous but at least we would have an insight into his thoughts).
The silence from PGMOL and others is deafening. I understand that they do not wish to criticise refs but without acknowledging that errors are made and taking steps to fix them, we will be plagued by poor decisions for years to come.
And crucially, home bias or team bias needs to be part of any decision to appoint an official. With stats from Opta etc it's not difficult. A known homer or known bias toward a team should be enough to send the ref back to remedial school. | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:06 - Dec 20 with 1940 views | JaySaint |
The incident at newcastle (Ederson), was hilarious. Such a penalty, it throws up massive questions as to why it was not given | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:19 - Dec 20 with 1933 views | saint22 |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 12:18 - Dec 20 by ElijahK |
Sorry but the arrogance of some is unbelievable sometimes. If you’ve actually been a ref then you’ll know it’s not an easy job to do, as I’m on the Wessex league and actually know what it’s like to be in their position. As other than Like Dean and John Moss (also maybe Kevin Friend/Atkinson), most PL refs are actually quite decent, but it’s more VAR that’s been letting them down recently.
As 3 of the 5 points you’ve made are incorrect anyway, as you can’t book a player for simulation if theirs contact (aka the Ali incident) as a player can argue that the contact made them go down, wether it’s enough for a foul or not is up to the ref, but unless there’s no real contact (which there was as Trent was sticking out his hand) then you can’t book them for simulation.
But yeah Kane should’ve been sent off, but that’s VAR’s fault, as when I saw it on sky for the first time, I thought it was just a yellow, but only after seeing it multiple times from different angles did I realise that actually it is a red, as originally I didn’t see James studs up, which is where VAR should come in and help.
Similar situation with the Newcastle incident, as from the refs angle, he could’ve easily seen that as an exaggeration/dive, but that’s when VAR should’ve intervened as yeah it was a pen, but if the Newcastle guy wanted to stay on his feet then he’d of been able to.
And with Robertson, I don’t get your point as it’s like us refs are here to make everyone happy, and just like players, we make mistakes too (but other than the Kane red card incident, he didn’t make any major mistakes for any of the main incidents), and that’s no excuse to go and do a red card tackle.
But this whole Jota incident is embarrassing to football as the Spurs guy has gone into the side of him for a shoulder barge, and Jota was looking for it, hence why he went down soo easily. As football is a contact sport, and seeing how it was just a shoulder barge, with nothing else (as in no sticking our arms/tripping’s up), as if that had been back in the 90’s then no one would’ve called for that to be a penalty.
As at the end of the day, other than a few refs here and there, most of the refs actually do their jobs quite well, hence why it’s soo hard/takes soo long to get to a level 1a ref (aka Premier League), as it’s very easy to criticise a ref, but quite hard to actually do the job they do, with hundreds of thousands watching them. As like I’ve already said, other than a few refs who consistently mess up, most are actually pretty decent, it’s just they don’t get much praise when they do have a decent game, but are highlighted when they mess up, as well as just one ref messing up, which can reflect badly on all the PL refs, which just isn’t right. Especially when the criticisms is for things they got right (sheesh I still remember after the West Ham game how people had a go at the ref for not playing advantage for the second Antonio yellow, when in the LOTG he was completely right in doing so). As in the end, yeah it was a red for Kane, and was a pen for Newcastle, but that was it, and that’s not something which you should review the whole of VAR over. |
VAR is controlled by said refs
It isn’t the technology letting us all down it’s those supposedly in charge
But like this country as a whole really | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:49 - Dec 20 with 1902 views | 1885_SFC |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:06 - Dec 20 by JaySaint |
The incident at newcastle (Ederson), was hilarious. Such a penalty, it throws up massive questions as to why it was not given |
Don't let anyone ever tell you that referees/VAR do not favour the bigger teams. We all know they do. Blue used to come on here & defend some laughable Man City VAR decisions - so laughable it was embarrassing. | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:49 - Dec 20 with 1901 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:19 - Dec 20 by saint22 |
VAR is controlled by said refs
It isn’t the technology letting us all down it’s those supposedly in charge
But like this country as a whole really |
Yeah you are correct, but they’ve gotta keep into account of whether the ref got the most decent view of it and whether he actually wanted their help or not, as both the Newcastle pen and lane red card may have been times where the ref said that he didn’t need VAR’s help as he thought he saw a decent enough view of it | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 17:51 - Dec 20 with 1839 views | saint901 |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 15:49 - Dec 20 by ElijahK |
Yeah you are correct, but they’ve gotta keep into account of whether the ref got the most decent view of it and whether he actually wanted their help or not, as both the Newcastle pen and lane red card may have been times where the ref said that he didn’t need VAR’s help as he thought he saw a decent enough view of it |
Are you saying that VAR is optional and that the ref can say he doesn't need it?
If that is correct, then VAR has just become even more redundant.
"Hello VAR, this the ref. If you see a blue player foul a red player, please don't tell me".
Refs should be allowed to over rule VAR but not to ignore it. | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 18:06 - Dec 20 with 1826 views | Saintsforeverj |
Refs have got lazy. They know VAR will make the decision if they miss something (or not but at least the ref can blame VAR). | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:05 - Dec 20 with 1759 views | Bazza |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 18:06 - Dec 20 by Saintsforeverj |
Refs have got lazy. They know VAR will make the decision if they miss something (or not but at least the ref can blame VAR). |
Refs clearly resent var use as the implementation is the least successful of any sport. They should embrace it as Rugby, Cricket, tennis etc. Of course having another ref running the Var prob leads to professional jealousies but the game today is so fast and athletic with huge monies involved so var must be used especially to expose biased refs. | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:25 - Dec 20 with 1744 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:05 - Dec 20 by Bazza |
Refs clearly resent var use as the implementation is the least successful of any sport. They should embrace it as Rugby, Cricket, tennis etc. Of course having another ref running the Var prob leads to professional jealousies but the game today is so fast and athletic with huge monies involved so var must be used especially to expose biased refs. |
The strange thing is, there are still many wrong decisions going on. Kane should 100 per cent have been sent off the other evening. It was a nasty, high footed, studds up challenge. I wouldn't normally side with Klopp, but it was a definite sending off. The ref didn't go to the monitor to check it, and I assume VAR didn't ask him to. How can that be, when it's clearly a red card? So the ref and VAR missed an obvious red card. This is just one example. VAR seems to have sorted out the offside situation now, but serious and obvious fouls, they can't work it out. | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:48 - Dec 20 with 1732 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 17:51 - Dec 20 by saint901 |
Are you saying that VAR is optional and that the ref can say he doesn't need it?
If that is correct, then VAR has just become even more redundant.
"Hello VAR, this the ref. If you see a blue player foul a red player, please don't tell me".
Refs should be allowed to over rule VAR but not to ignore it. |
Well yeah as if a ref has seen it clearly (or at least he thinks he has) then he won’t ask for help off of VAR when that official offers it to them, as unless the VAR ref is certain somethings up/the ref on the pitch isn’t 100% certain, then it can quite easily be missed, otherwise almost every yellow card would be checked (and yeah quite a few are, but not all of them) | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:53 - Dec 20 with 1728 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:25 - Dec 20 by Saintsforeverj |
The strange thing is, there are still many wrong decisions going on. Kane should 100 per cent have been sent off the other evening. It was a nasty, high footed, studds up challenge. I wouldn't normally side with Klopp, but it was a definite sending off. The ref didn't go to the monitor to check it, and I assume VAR didn't ask him to. How can that be, when it's clearly a red card? So the ref and VAR missed an obvious red card. This is just one example. VAR seems to have sorted out the offside situation now, but serious and obvious fouls, they can't work it out. |
Well that’s exactly why some people wanna hear what the VAR says to the ref, as the VAR official could’ve suggested for Tierney to look at the monitor and he could’ve rejected it, but it could’ve been vide versa as well (but I’m pretty certain that the VAR wouldn’t have said anything as I’d be quite surprised if he hadn’t gone to the monitor after getting suggested to).
But refs aren’t lazy, it’s just that they wanna avoid using the monitors so that there’s less stress for the fans and major stoppages in play (aka so it doesn’t turn into the likes of American football on how long and boring that can be), as it’s only when they want VAR/the VAR official is 100% certain that the reds got it wrong that they’ll use the monitor. | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:59 - Dec 20 with 1718 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:53 - Dec 20 by ElijahK |
Well that’s exactly why some people wanna hear what the VAR says to the ref, as the VAR official could’ve suggested for Tierney to look at the monitor and he could’ve rejected it, but it could’ve been vide versa as well (but I’m pretty certain that the VAR wouldn’t have said anything as I’d be quite surprised if he hadn’t gone to the monitor after getting suggested to).
But refs aren’t lazy, it’s just that they wanna avoid using the monitors so that there’s less stress for the fans and major stoppages in play (aka so it doesn’t turn into the likes of American football on how long and boring that can be), as it’s only when they want VAR/the VAR official is 100% certain that the reds got it wrong that they’ll use the monitor. |
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10326827
This was a definite red card. There is no discussion or grey area here. This was a leg breaker. The VAR official should have known that the ref had got it wrong. That's what VAR is there for,.in case the ref makes an obvious error. With replays, VAR and the ref in the pitch, they couldn't work.out it was a terrible challenge. There is no explanation for it, other than they must need their eyes testing or they had a bet on the game. [Post edited 20 Dec 2021 21:03]
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 01:15 - Dec 21 with 1669 views | ElijahK |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 20:59 - Dec 20 by Saintsforeverj |
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-10326827
This was a definite red card. There is no discussion or grey area here. This was a leg breaker. The VAR official should have known that the ref had got it wrong. That's what VAR is there for,.in case the ref makes an obvious error. With replays, VAR and the ref in the pitch, they couldn't work.out it was a terrible challenge. There is no explanation for it, other than they must need their eyes testing or they had a bet on the game. [Post edited 20 Dec 2021 21:03]
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Or quite simply the ref thought he had the perfect view of it so decided that he didn’t need to slow down the game to review what he though he saw quite clearly (and no I’m not suggesting he got it right or such, it’s just there is a few other answers to what happened) | |
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 05:03 - Dec 21 with 1637 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 01:15 - Dec 21 by ElijahK |
Or quite simply the ref thought he had the perfect view of it so decided that he didn’t need to slow down the game to review what he though he saw quite clearly (and no I’m not suggesting he got it right or such, it’s just there is a few other answers to what happened) |
In that case, VAR didn't think to say to the ref "You need to have a look at this on the monitor, it was a leg breaker, definite red card,"? So VAR, which was brought in, to help the ref when he misses something major or gets it wrong, which is what happened here, didn't help at all. What a failure then.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/59736316
[Post edited 21 Dec 2021 5:07]
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| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 07:29 - Dec 21 with 1602 views | saint22 |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 01:15 - Dec 21 by ElijahK |
Or quite simply the ref thought he had the perfect view of it so decided that he didn’t need to slow down the game to review what he though he saw quite clearly (and no I’m not suggesting he got it right or such, it’s just there is a few other answers to what happened) |
That’s total BS
VAR is there to assess and over rule clear and obvious errors
THAT was clear and obvious so he should have been told to go look at the monitor
The issue is the officials they are not good enough and lack balls | | | |
| Seriously - there needs to be a review over refs and VAR on 08:38 - Dec 21 with 1554 views | saint901 |
There's a report on the BBC that is a brief discussion with Clattenburg (who I always regarded as one of the most biased refs in the league). He is head of refereeing in Greece. He says that when VAR is involved in Greece, the discussion between ref and VAR official is broadcast to the crowd.
They may not agree but they know what is said.
Seems very sensible to me. | | | |
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