| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread 10:17 - Feb 24 with 15469 views | SaintNick |
This thread for all the debates on the developing situation |  |
| Satisfying The Bloodlust Of The Masses In Peacetime |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:08 - Feb 25 with 1093 views | IanSouthstander |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 09:29 - Feb 25 by JaySaint |
The EU are starting to argue within itself
Germany, Italy and Hungary being blamed for blocking tougher sanctions (swift for example) against Russia |
Perhaps we should put sanctions in place against these apologists until they fall in line with the rest of the world. |  | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:10 - Feb 25 with 1075 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:08 - Feb 25 by IanSouthstander |
Perhaps we should put sanctions in place against these apologists until they fall in line with the rest of the world. |
They have already done it to us , its called the Post Brexit Deal .
Funny that isn't it ? |  |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:12 - Feb 25 with 1068 views | 1885_SFC |
Germany & Italy sticking together you say?
It's like groundhog day... |  |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:14 - Feb 25 with 1055 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:01 - Feb 25 by Bison |
Yes you are Berny , you are just an argue-mentalist , removing them from SWIFT would cripple the economy within days , in 50 Russian cities yesterday people took to the streets protesting against the war , add the near collapse of the Russian banking system to that and you may have a means of stopping the madman.
So if it takes 10 years then lets not bother , as the Latvian Vice PM just said on an interview. The Ukrainians are spilling blood , at least the Central European countries can do is spill some money. He then spelled out the countries that were helping Latvia, The US , Canada and the UK so are we very different from the rest of Europe in that respect. |
Calm down mate. I didn’t say don’t bother but let’s get things in perspective. Our first reaction was frankly pathetic and embarrassing. Our second attempt not much better. Yes there needs to be harder and quicker measures taken but arguing amongst ourselves and calling out others just plays into Putin’s hands. One of the reasons he was keen to see us out of the EU. Slagging off the Germans or the French isn’t going to help anybody at a time when Europe needs a firm and coordinated response. |  | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:18 - Feb 25 with 1052 views | IanSouthstander |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:14 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
Calm down mate. I didn’t say don’t bother but let’s get things in perspective. Our first reaction was frankly pathetic and embarrassing. Our second attempt not much better. Yes there needs to be harder and quicker measures taken but arguing amongst ourselves and calling out others just plays into Putin’s hands. One of the reasons he was keen to see us out of the EU. Slagging off the Germans or the French isn’t going to help anybody at a time when Europe needs a firm and coordinated response. |
What is the point of a co-ordinated response if the response is to do fcuk all. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:22 - Feb 25 with 1045 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:14 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
Calm down mate. I didn’t say don’t bother but let’s get things in perspective. Our first reaction was frankly pathetic and embarrassing. Our second attempt not much better. Yes there needs to be harder and quicker measures taken but arguing amongst ourselves and calling out others just plays into Putin’s hands. One of the reasons he was keen to see us out of the EU. Slagging off the Germans or the French isn’t going to help anybody at a time when Europe needs a firm and coordinated response. |
I didn't call them out , the Latvian ( who are part of the EU) Vice PM did but then had to say , sorry I have to be careful what I say as there could be repercussions for us ( from the EU ).
As for being nice to them , are you kidding me ? They need to change their position by any means , we left the EU as our voice was always overshadowed by them , Now we should be shouting from the rooftops what a bunch of tw@ts they are being.
In fact the Yanks are being nice to them , they could pull us out of SWIFT without the EU's consent. Hope Biden has the balls to do that. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:26 - Feb 25 with 1039 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:18 - Feb 25 by IanSouthstander |
What is the point of a co-ordinated response if the response is to do fcuk all. |
Before they issue a co-ordinated response they need to decide where they have the meeting to discuss the co-ordinated response , current favourite is Brussels but Strasbourg has not given up hope. Also they need to send a delegation to UEFA to see how they get back their expenses for the Champions League final. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:32 - Feb 25 with 1033 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:22 - Feb 25 by Bison |
I didn't call them out , the Latvian ( who are part of the EU) Vice PM did but then had to say , sorry I have to be careful what I say as there could be repercussions for us ( from the EU ).
As for being nice to them , are you kidding me ? They need to change their position by any means , we left the EU as our voice was always overshadowed by them , Now we should be shouting from the rooftops what a bunch of tw@ts they are being.
In fact the Yanks are being nice to them , they could pull us out of SWIFT without the EU's consent. Hope Biden has the balls to do that. |
Where did I say be nice to them? There is a difference between working together to find workable solutions and “being nice”. Each nation has its own self interests, yes, including us. Let’s not pretend that we are any better than anyone else here. We ave been laundering Russian money for years. As for our voice being overshadowed, how does the veto work then? As the old saying goes, it is better being in the tent pissing out than being outside pissing in. We are a bit part player now with a diminished voice. Putin may be a psychopath and a megalomaniac, but he is not stupid. Us leaving the EU made this easier for him as does anything that widens the divides between the European countries. | | | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:47 - Feb 25 with 1012 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:32 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
Where did I say be nice to them? There is a difference between working together to find workable solutions and “being nice”. Each nation has its own self interests, yes, including us. Let’s not pretend that we are any better than anyone else here. We ave been laundering Russian money for years. As for our voice being overshadowed, how does the veto work then? As the old saying goes, it is better being in the tent pissing out than being outside pissing in. We are a bit part player now with a diminished voice. Putin may be a psychopath and a megalomaniac, but he is not stupid. Us leaving the EU made this easier for him as does anything that widens the divides between the European countries. |
Totally disagree , we could put no pressure on the EU if we were still in. We are not a bit player , we have much more power from outside. The Baltic countries who are most under threat from this are looking to us as the EU is prevaricating . You obviously let your opinion on Brexit cloud your views of the real world.
I am sure if I said the EU are doing great your response would be , the EU need to do more. If I said we need to keep gas prices down you would say but people are dying in The Ukraine.
You are a weird one mate. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:56 - Feb 25 with 1000 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:47 - Feb 25 by Bison |
Totally disagree , we could put no pressure on the EU if we were still in. We are not a bit player , we have much more power from outside. The Baltic countries who are most under threat from this are looking to us as the EU is prevaricating . You obviously let your opinion on Brexit cloud your views of the real world.
I am sure if I said the EU are doing great your response would be , the EU need to do more. If I said we need to keep gas prices down you would say but people are dying in The Ukraine.
You are a weird one mate. |
I am weird because I have a different point of view? Not once have I said that the EU are doing well. Neither are we. Neither are the US. We can argue the point all day long but we had a lot more influence over the EU when we were part of it than we have now.
I think you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying so I’ll leave it there.
One final thing though. Ben Wallace )minister of Defence) said we have kicked Russia’s arse before and we will do it again, so nothing to worry about them! | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 12:13 - Feb 25 with 974 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:56 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
I am weird because I have a different point of view? Not once have I said that the EU are doing well. Neither are we. Neither are the US. We can argue the point all day long but we had a lot more influence over the EU when we were part of it than we have now.
I think you seem to be deliberately misinterpreting what I am saying so I’ll leave it there.
One final thing though. Ben Wallace )minister of Defence) said we have kicked Russia’s arse before and we will do it again, so nothing to worry about them! |
No you are weird because you always have a different point of view , its like a compulsion and so predictable now. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 12:55 - Feb 25 with 942 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 12:13 - Feb 25 by Bison |
No you are weird because you always have a different point of view , its like a compulsion and so predictable now. |
Have a different point of view? Come on Bison, I am not the only one. I’m sure you read the papers, listen to the radio, watch the tv. There are millions of people who share the same views. I am not unique. If my views don’t reflect yours, that is not weird, it is life. There are different views on here on everything from whether Ralph should stay or go, whether Forster or McCathy should start, whether we should be in the EU or not, whether Johnson should be sacked or not etc. just because someone doesn’t share your views on these subjects doesn’t make them weird. You show me one thread where every single person agrees. Isn’t that Theo pint of these forums? To exchange views. If we all thought exactly the same way there would be no need for these places. 😘 | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:28 - Feb 25 with 907 views | ElijahK |
Really we need to do a lot more than just give them a few more sanctions.
As if you remember how WW2 started, then you’ll see that there’s certainly a lot of similarities between the two…
WW2 started with a dictator attacking somewhere which they thought they had the right to attack, whilst many others understood why they attacked it, didn’t agree with it. So other forces threatened to act upon it, but in the end did minimal and were too scared to do so, which meant that the invading force thought they could get away with it again, so therefore attacked somewhere else they thought they had a right to, so did it again and the opposition responded the same.
That meant that this force that was going around attacking everywhere thought they could get away with it so therefore attacked somewhere else and didn’t take the opposition seriously due to how they’d reacted to the previous invasions, and then WW2 began!
But as they’d acted upon it soo late, this resulted in the invading forces having the better ground as well as being more prepared… |  |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:40 - Feb 25 with 894 views | Sadoldgit |
We spend a fortune buying and maintaining nuclear weapons but Putin knows damn well that we won’t use them so what a waste of money they are. We would do far better investing the money in new technology and finding other ways to deal with aggressors. We in the West have constantly cut our ground forces over the years whilst Russia has been building up its forces, vastly out numbering the rest of Europe in tanks for example. We in the west have become reliant on Russian energy. Putin has been playing a long game and the chickens have come home to roost. I completely agree that sanctions alone aren’t ideal, but apart from supplying military equipment and support, what else can we do? If we (the West) send in troops all hell will break loose. Do we have the stomache for the consequences? | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:40 - Feb 25 with 896 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 11:47 - Feb 25 by Bison |
Totally disagree , we could put no pressure on the EU if we were still in. We are not a bit player , we have much more power from outside. The Baltic countries who are most under threat from this are looking to us as the EU is prevaricating . You obviously let your opinion on Brexit cloud your views of the real world.
I am sure if I said the EU are doing great your response would be , the EU need to do more. If I said we need to keep gas prices down you would say but people are dying in The Ukraine.
You are a weird one mate. |
😉 You are quite right Bison. This has nothing to do with Brexit or anything the UK has done. In the EU or out of the EU, a weak and sleepy president of the United States is one of the biggest influencers. Johnson is at least pushing for excluding Russia from SWIFT, and is pretty much doing so alone. Had the USA done it by now, it wouldn't matter whether Brexit had happened or not. Putin senses a weak EU but most importantly, a weak US. Removing Russia from SWIFT is the obvious thing to do, to at least make things really difficult for them. But Biden says no. The US are key here. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:55 - Feb 25 with 880 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:40 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
We spend a fortune buying and maintaining nuclear weapons but Putin knows damn well that we won’t use them so what a waste of money they are. We would do far better investing the money in new technology and finding other ways to deal with aggressors. We in the West have constantly cut our ground forces over the years whilst Russia has been building up its forces, vastly out numbering the rest of Europe in tanks for example. We in the west have become reliant on Russian energy. Putin has been playing a long game and the chickens have come home to roost. I completely agree that sanctions alone aren’t ideal, but apart from supplying military equipment and support, what else can we do? If we (the West) send in troops all hell will break loose. Do we have the stomache for the consequences? |
So if Putin Nuked London you saying we would not retaliate ?
If you mean we would not use them first I totally agree with you but would Putin ? Its a circular argument but what I think is certain if we didnt have them Putin would use them if a conventional war was going against him.
So no , nuclear weapons are not a waste of money they have been keeping you and your loved ones safe for the last 70 years , believe me without them WW3 would of already of happened by now. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:58 - Feb 25 with 876 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:55 - Feb 25 by Bison |
So if Putin Nuked London you saying we would not retaliate ?
If you mean we would not use them first I totally agree with you but would Putin ? Its a circular argument but what I think is certain if we didnt have them Putin would use them if a conventional war was going against him.
So no , nuclear weapons are not a waste of money they have been keeping you and your loved ones safe for the last 70 years , believe me without them WW3 would of already of happened by now. |
If he launched first I doubt if there would be much of us left to retaliate. And if he launched first then it didn’t work as a deterrent. | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:08 - Feb 25 with 864 views | Bison |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 13:58 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
If he launched first I doubt if there would be much of us left to retaliate. And if he launched first then it didn’t work as a deterrent. |
So you have proved my point ! for the last 70 years no-one has let off a Nuke due to M.A.D. You say its a waste of money but would you take the money back and re-live the last 70 years and risk guaranteed peace because of your idealistic view ?
If Ukraine had kept thier Nukes after the end of the cold war do you think Putin would of invaded . I know you can't change your view but thats how I see it. | |
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 15:25 - Feb 25 with 833 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 14:08 - Feb 25 by Bison |
So you have proved my point ! for the last 70 years no-one has let off a Nuke due to M.A.D. You say its a waste of money but would you take the money back and re-live the last 70 years and risk guaranteed peace because of your idealistic view ?
If Ukraine had kept thier Nukes after the end of the cold war do you think Putin would of invaded . I know you can't change your view but thats how I see it. |
Do how does that work when someone does launch first? If Putin is mad enough to launch first then MAD fails as a deterrent. Things have moved on and cyber attacks are far more effective. We can’t compete with the super powers when it comes to that type of weapon art so would it make more sense to invest in something we could use and would be effective? | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:16 - Feb 25 with 800 views | Soton |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 15:25 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
Do how does that work when someone does launch first? If Putin is mad enough to launch first then MAD fails as a deterrent. Things have moved on and cyber attacks are far more effective. We can’t compete with the super powers when it comes to that type of weapon art so would it make more sense to invest in something we could use and would be effective? |
You seem to be labouring about the idea that nuclear weapons have kept the peace.
Bison is saying that without them wwIII would of happened long ago, so without them ourselves we could of been the target but with them we have not been a target for a nuclear weapon strike against the UK
Not something you would want to look back on with hindsight and thought if only we had our own nuclear deterrent, hmm I wonder why they call it a deterrent?
The reason why we have our deterrent on very high tec submarines is so every nut job knows a nuclear strike against the UK would mean Jack sshit as a win if you can’t stop the huge retaliation that would happen to the aggressor |  | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:23 - Feb 25 with 791 views | Saintsforeverj |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:16 - Feb 25 by Soton |
You seem to be labouring about the idea that nuclear weapons have kept the peace.
Bison is saying that without them wwIII would of happened long ago, so without them ourselves we could of been the target but with them we have not been a target for a nuclear weapon strike against the UK
Not something you would want to look back on with hindsight and thought if only we had our own nuclear deterrent, hmm I wonder why they call it a deterrent?
The reason why we have our deterrent on very high tec submarines is so every nut job knows a nuclear strike against the UK would mean Jack sshit as a win if you can’t stop the huge retaliation that would happen to the aggressor |
Exactly right. And if Russia started attacking us, they know we could "hit the button". You need the deterrent. Ukraine doesn't have a nuclear weapon, if they did, Russia probably would not have invaded, as ofcourse Ukraine would have pressed the button. Most likely, nobody will ever press the button. But because we could, it makes aggressors stop short of attack, just in case. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 16:26]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:37 - Feb 25 with 769 views | Soton |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:23 - Feb 25 by Saintsforeverj |
Exactly right. And if Russia started attacking us, they know we could "hit the button". You need the deterrent. Ukraine doesn't have a nuclear weapon, if they did, Russia probably would not have invaded, as ofcourse Ukraine would have pressed the button. Most likely, nobody will ever press the button. But because we could, it makes aggressors stop short of attack, just in case. [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 16:26]
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This is also why Russia doesn’t need to worry about countries turning to NATO to protect themselves, even if they ended up completely surrounded by NATO affiliated countries they would be safe to assume no invasion would come as they have a very big deterrent
What Putin doesn’t like is that once a country becomes a member of NATO he can no longer have a bullying influence on that country | | | |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:41 - Feb 25 with 746 views | Sadoldgit |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 16:16 - Feb 25 by Soton |
You seem to be labouring about the idea that nuclear weapons have kept the peace.
Bison is saying that without them wwIII would of happened long ago, so without them ourselves we could of been the target but with them we have not been a target for a nuclear weapon strike against the UK
Not something you would want to look back on with hindsight and thought if only we had our own nuclear deterrent, hmm I wonder why they call it a deterrent?
The reason why we have our deterrent on very high tec submarines is so every nut job knows a nuclear strike against the UK would mean Jack sshit as a win if you can’t stop the huge retaliation that would happen to the aggressor |
I understand that, but it is not a deterrent if you don’t use it. MAD works on the basis that there will be a second strike but what if the first strike takes everything out so there is no second strike? Alternatively the aggressor could have a shield system that would prevent a second strike. It works until you get someone mad enough to press the button first after that it really doesn’t matter because the damage is done. It hasn’t kept the peace at all as there have been countless wars since WW2. What is has done so far is prevent the use of nuclear weapons but as I say, as soon as you get someone who is prepared to fire first or if one side suddenly has a weapons system or defence system that negates anything the opposition has, it no longer works
This is worth a read for a different view on the merits of MAD
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/14/nuclear-deterrence-myth-lethal-dav [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 17:47]
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| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:49 - Feb 25 with 727 views | JaySaint |
| Ukraine V Russia Matchday Thread on 17:41 - Feb 25 by Sadoldgit |
I understand that, but it is not a deterrent if you don’t use it. MAD works on the basis that there will be a second strike but what if the first strike takes everything out so there is no second strike? Alternatively the aggressor could have a shield system that would prevent a second strike. It works until you get someone mad enough to press the button first after that it really doesn’t matter because the damage is done. It hasn’t kept the peace at all as there have been countless wars since WW2. What is has done so far is prevent the use of nuclear weapons but as I say, as soon as you get someone who is prepared to fire first or if one side suddenly has a weapons system or defence system that negates anything the opposition has, it no longer works
This is worth a read for a different view on the merits of MAD
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/14/nuclear-deterrence-myth-lethal-dav [Post edited 25 Feb 2022 17:47]
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Hows does "ones side suddenly get a defence system"?
This do not just appear! The US have been developing these for decades, and still have not done it properly | |
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