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Brexit trade deals 08:41 - Aug 17 with 6949 viewswestside

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/aug/17/brexit-trade-deals-gruelling-ch
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Brexit trade deals on 09:53 - Aug 17 with 3296 viewsdeanscfc

Didn't get half way through the article but I didn't need to. Bottom line is brexit is a needlessly going to set our country back a decade or more and for what gain? People will claim issues of sovereignty but really anything like that was an afterthought. It was largely a xenophobic vote inspired by right wing media horror stories. How many people can HONESTLY tell me that their money is now worth so much less abroad? I already know the answer to that.
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Brexit trade deals on 09:55 - Aug 17 with 3294 viewsdickythorpe

"Largely a xenophobic vote"......nothing to do with "red tape" small businesses face? Nothing to do with a large amount of voters not really knowing WTF the EU do?
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Brexit trade deals on 10:19 - Aug 17 with 3267 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 09:55 - Aug 17 by dickythorpe

"Largely a xenophobic vote"......nothing to do with "red tape" small businesses face? Nothing to do with a large amount of voters not really knowing WTF the EU do?


One look at comments on the daily mail or express websites (pro brexit readers for anyone who isn't aware) tells me all I need to know. The daily mail actually had an article the other day where one of the highest rated comments praised a certain German WW2 leader for the way he 'at least put the Germans first'. The article was about immigration and the EU. Made me sick to read it but also angry that so many people feel this way. It was no coincidence that racist attacks rose after brexit. What's more, those same people have potentially taken away my right to live, work or retire abroad in friendlier places. Again, sickening.

Your point about people 'not knowing WTF the EU do' is meaningless. People say the same about our own poloticians 'what do they do'. It's human nature to hate anybody that we see as having some sort of power over us but views about 'what they do' are generally uneducated. I remember from my time working in the public sector how people moaned about what public sector employees did without any thought to the services and facilities all around them. Red tape and businesses? Not so sure on that. Perhaps some had reason to be miffed at the EU but I know quite a fee small business voters who voted in on their realisation of what this vote would do to the economy and in particular the value of the pound/cost of importing.
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Brexit trade deals on 10:48 - Aug 17 with 3235 viewsAnotherJohn

Surprisingly good figures on UK unemployment and registered claimants today - which in the latter case include July. Of course, it is too early for these to mean much, but imagine the spin from Guardian, Indy and Beeb journos had the figures shown a rise rather than a fall.

Here is another hint that things may not be as gloomy as the OP implies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/16/britain-could-have-special-relationsh
[Post edited 17 Aug 2016 10:51]
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Brexit trade deals on 12:41 - Aug 17 with 3165 viewsdickythorpe

Brexit trade deals on 10:19 - Aug 17 by deanscfc

One look at comments on the daily mail or express websites (pro brexit readers for anyone who isn't aware) tells me all I need to know. The daily mail actually had an article the other day where one of the highest rated comments praised a certain German WW2 leader for the way he 'at least put the Germans first'. The article was about immigration and the EU. Made me sick to read it but also angry that so many people feel this way. It was no coincidence that racist attacks rose after brexit. What's more, those same people have potentially taken away my right to live, work or retire abroad in friendlier places. Again, sickening.

Your point about people 'not knowing WTF the EU do' is meaningless. People say the same about our own poloticians 'what do they do'. It's human nature to hate anybody that we see as having some sort of power over us but views about 'what they do' are generally uneducated. I remember from my time working in the public sector how people moaned about what public sector employees did without any thought to the services and facilities all around them. Red tape and businesses? Not so sure on that. Perhaps some had reason to be miffed at the EU but I know quite a fee small business voters who voted in on their realisation of what this vote would do to the economy and in particular the value of the pound/cost of importing.


I think we'll agree to disagree. Have a nice, relaxing day and dont use the Daily Mail comments as a benchmark in life or a gauge of public opinion.
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Brexit trade deals on 14:15 - Aug 17 with 3106 viewsyescomeon

Why do we need trade deals?

Upthecity!

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Brexit trade deals on 15:17 - Aug 17 with 3057 viewsGlyn1

Brexit trade deals on 09:55 - Aug 17 by dickythorpe

"Largely a xenophobic vote"......nothing to do with "red tape" small businesses face? Nothing to do with a large amount of voters not really knowing WTF the EU do?


"Red tape" is going to up rather than down.

Poll: Who should be our next manager? Please name them.

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Brexit trade deals on 18:33 - Aug 17 with 2992 viewsdickythorpe

Brexit trade deals on 15:17 - Aug 17 by Glyn1

"Red tape" is going to up rather than down.


Go on then.....what does your crystal ball say?
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Brexit trade deals on 18:47 - Aug 17 with 2981 viewsBrynmill_Jack

Brexit trade deals on 10:19 - Aug 17 by deanscfc

One look at comments on the daily mail or express websites (pro brexit readers for anyone who isn't aware) tells me all I need to know. The daily mail actually had an article the other day where one of the highest rated comments praised a certain German WW2 leader for the way he 'at least put the Germans first'. The article was about immigration and the EU. Made me sick to read it but also angry that so many people feel this way. It was no coincidence that racist attacks rose after brexit. What's more, those same people have potentially taken away my right to live, work or retire abroad in friendlier places. Again, sickening.

Your point about people 'not knowing WTF the EU do' is meaningless. People say the same about our own poloticians 'what do they do'. It's human nature to hate anybody that we see as having some sort of power over us but views about 'what they do' are generally uneducated. I remember from my time working in the public sector how people moaned about what public sector employees did without any thought to the services and facilities all around them. Red tape and businesses? Not so sure on that. Perhaps some had reason to be miffed at the EU but I know quite a fee small business voters who voted in on their realisation of what this vote would do to the economy and in particular the value of the pound/cost of importing.


I voted out. I read neither, or the Sun, the Star or any other right wing trash rag. And I have no truck with Adolf hitler either if you are going to generalise.

Paul Mason made a good point when he countered Boris Johnson's comparrison of the EU to Nazi Germany - Msaon stated the EU was far more akin to the Weimar republic which was then hijacked by far right wingers. And the far right are emerging in Holland, Germany, Hungary and not to mention of course France. Britain has got nowhere near the amunt of racism and xenophobia that these others possess. We do not have overtly racist right wing parties in our parliament. I hate UKIP by they're not the Nazi party reincarnated.

You and other remainers just was to label people that way. Even hen they were more worried about corporate policy cotrol by global company lobbyists paying for the policies they want which will benefit their capitalist agenda to be made law.

Westminster isn't free of that by any means but not nearly as bad as the level the Brussels sewer has sunk to.

Each time I go to Bedd - au........................

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Brexit trade deals on 18:50 - Aug 17 with 2978 viewsBrynmill_Jack

Brexit trade deals on 10:48 - Aug 17 by AnotherJohn

Surprisingly good figures on UK unemployment and registered claimants today - which in the latter case include July. Of course, it is too early for these to mean much, but imagine the spin from Guardian, Indy and Beeb journos had the figures shown a rise rather than a fall.

Here is another hint that things may not be as gloomy as the OP implies.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08/16/britain-could-have-special-relationsh
[Post edited 17 Aug 2016 10:51]


Nice one. Looks like Dean's project fear was all a load of bollox then. As if The EU could survive a trade war with the UK . FFS.

Each time I go to Bedd - au........................

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Brexit trade deals on 23:39 - Aug 17 with 2920 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 18:50 - Aug 17 by Brynmill_Jack

Nice one. Looks like Dean's project fear was all a load of bollox then. As if The EU could survive a trade war with the UK . FFS.


I don't really know what to say to your other post because you casually gloss over the fact that many people did vote out because of their xenophobia. Many of the comments on those tabloid sites are horrific. The vote itself, the fact that people were willing to risk so much primarily to stop immigration (nobody can say it wasn't the major selling point to leave) says a lot. I have some good friends from the EU (Polish, German etc) and they could tell you some stories about what it has meant for them. They're some of the nicest and most honest/hard working people that I know. Personally brexit probably also directly affected me in that I always liked the idea of living and working in Europe for a year sometime in future (e.g. the Netherlands where i also have friends)...that will be unquestionably harder now if not impossible. Future generations are set to lose those rights too - losing land basically...the whole of Europe.

Those links you quoted refer to figures pre brexit. The quote is cherry picked. The reality is that the pound is down against the euro...the second lowest of all time I think I saw. Whatever happens, this vote has now meant that our government now spends the next decade trying to sort out an exit from the EU. Anybody who does their research will see that economically it is very likely that much of that time will be tough (e.g. all of our major industries are already contracting since brexit). In that time we could have been moving forward as a country and working with our closest neighbours to put any issues right. Instead all of our resources now go on sorting out a huge mess before we can even move forward. And the the promises made by the leave campaigners? Immigration figures for example...not even likely to be improved on.
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Brexit trade deals on 00:16 - Aug 18 with 2889 viewsBanosswan

Brexit trade deals on 23:39 - Aug 17 by deanscfc

I don't really know what to say to your other post because you casually gloss over the fact that many people did vote out because of their xenophobia. Many of the comments on those tabloid sites are horrific. The vote itself, the fact that people were willing to risk so much primarily to stop immigration (nobody can say it wasn't the major selling point to leave) says a lot. I have some good friends from the EU (Polish, German etc) and they could tell you some stories about what it has meant for them. They're some of the nicest and most honest/hard working people that I know. Personally brexit probably also directly affected me in that I always liked the idea of living and working in Europe for a year sometime in future (e.g. the Netherlands where i also have friends)...that will be unquestionably harder now if not impossible. Future generations are set to lose those rights too - losing land basically...the whole of Europe.

Those links you quoted refer to figures pre brexit. The quote is cherry picked. The reality is that the pound is down against the euro...the second lowest of all time I think I saw. Whatever happens, this vote has now meant that our government now spends the next decade trying to sort out an exit from the EU. Anybody who does their research will see that economically it is very likely that much of that time will be tough (e.g. all of our major industries are already contracting since brexit). In that time we could have been moving forward as a country and working with our closest neighbours to put any issues right. Instead all of our resources now go on sorting out a huge mess before we can even move forward. And the the promises made by the leave campaigners? Immigration figures for example...not even likely to be improved on.


Any argument you use criticising the mail, express etc is rendered redundant by quoting the guardian you div.You correctly point out that many people voted due to xenophobia, but again miss that it was on both sides.

You have friends in Germany etc? Bully for you. I actively chose to learn German and French so that I could communicate with people I see as more culturally compatible with us (the usa, although a shared language is not).

Brexit for me was about taking responsibility. Getting rid of levels of governance we don't need. As a proud, Welsh speaking person I would also get rid of the assembly. It is pointless and another gravy train for politicians who couldn't make it on a national stage.

Ever since my son was... never conceived, because I've never had consensual sex without money involved... I've always kind of looked at you as... a thing, that I could live next to... in accordance with state laws.
Poll: How do you like your steak?

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Brexit trade deals on 00:38 - Aug 18 with 2872 viewsKerouac

Brexit trade deals on 18:47 - Aug 17 by Brynmill_Jack

I voted out. I read neither, or the Sun, the Star or any other right wing trash rag. And I have no truck with Adolf hitler either if you are going to generalise.

Paul Mason made a good point when he countered Boris Johnson's comparrison of the EU to Nazi Germany - Msaon stated the EU was far more akin to the Weimar republic which was then hijacked by far right wingers. And the far right are emerging in Holland, Germany, Hungary and not to mention of course France. Britain has got nowhere near the amunt of racism and xenophobia that these others possess. We do not have overtly racist right wing parties in our parliament. I hate UKIP by they're not the Nazi party reincarnated.

You and other remainers just was to label people that way. Even hen they were more worried about corporate policy cotrol by global company lobbyists paying for the policies they want which will benefit their capitalist agenda to be made law.

Westminster isn't free of that by any means but not nearly as bad as the level the Brussels sewer has sunk to.


Morrissey agrees with you (and me!)...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/700702/Morrissey-BBC-treatment-Brexit-vot


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss9VZ1FHxy0
Poll: Which manager should replace Russell Martin (2) ?

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Brexit trade deals on 01:19 - Aug 18 with 2857 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 00:16 - Aug 18 by Banosswan

Any argument you use criticising the mail, express etc is rendered redundant by quoting the guardian you div.You correctly point out that many people voted due to xenophobia, but again miss that it was on both sides.

You have friends in Germany etc? Bully for you. I actively chose to learn German and French so that I could communicate with people I see as more culturally compatible with us (the usa, although a shared language is not).

Brexit for me was about taking responsibility. Getting rid of levels of governance we don't need. As a proud, Welsh speaking person I would also get rid of the assembly. It is pointless and another gravy train for politicians who couldn't make it on a national stage.


So basically what you're saying is you're either incapable of reading or didn't read a word that I said. Given that I didn't even post the link I'm inclined to go with the former. "Div".
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Brexit trade deals on 07:54 - Aug 18 with 2795 viewsAnotherJohn

Any young person wanting a spell in another country should realise there is a whole world out there where Brits can and do work. Asia in particular offers many opportunities if one has a marketable skill. Limiting oneself to work within a creaking customs union is hardly setting global horizons. And regarding Europe, Brits found jobs before the EU was created and will still do so after we leave. Getting a visa or work permit - if required - is usually just a minor hurdle. Thousands have done it, including me.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 8:09]
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Brexit trade deals on 10:17 - Aug 18 with 2737 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 07:54 - Aug 18 by AnotherJohn

Any young person wanting a spell in another country should realise there is a whole world out there where Brits can and do work. Asia in particular offers many opportunities if one has a marketable skill. Limiting oneself to work within a creaking customs union is hardly setting global horizons. And regarding Europe, Brits found jobs before the EU was created and will still do so after we leave. Getting a visa or work permit - if required - is usually just a minor hurdle. Thousands have done it, including me.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 8:09]


This sounds true, in theory, but the reality for many people is very different. Speaking personally as someone who has traveled around the world quite a bit, Europe would be the only place which I would want to live other than the UK, mainly due to proximity to family and the ability to fly home more frequently as needed. Where as previously, a British national could move to Europe just as if it were their own land and find a place to live that suited them, a job that suited them etc, now it will rely on being granted visa access and that visa access could very well be related to working in a particular industry. You have the potential situation of needing to be able to gain and keep sponsorship or risk losing your whole life in that country (I always remember seeing a British girl in Australia in tears because she had to leave her life including partner, friends etc due to her firm withdrawing its sponsorship.

Then there is the small matter of applying for a job in that industry which undoubtedly becomes much harder when you realise that EU nationals will be preferred for the jobs advertised. In fact I believe there is often a rule which states that companies have to justify why an EU national couldn't be found for the job. The world has changed and it will be anything but easy to move to Europe. With those people younger than me who wanted to study abroad or work in casual jobs - that just won't be an option like it was. The EU funded erasmus schemes won't exist making things far more expensive. Those who want to retire in Europe? Well...

Personally I had considered living in the Netherlands for a bit (again, mainly due to proximity to home) but from my own research both applying for jobs as an experiment and using expat forums, that has already become exponentially harder Why would European companies want to hire a British person 'who voted to leave the EU', particularly when they have no idea what will happen in two years time. I have another friend who is more actively looking for work in Europe and he has told me the same; companies now don't want to know in the way that they did before.

People talk about the EU being about to collapse. It's just complete nonsense. As if 27 countries working in union to trade together are just all at the same time suddenly going to say 'enough of this, we'd rather not bother'. Why has our pound fallen to a near all time low against the Euro since the referendum and why are bookies stating that the chance of us facing recession in the next two years is as high as 60%? Doesn't exactly leave us in a good negotiating position does it? Why does the market drop everytime brexit seems closer but ease when there is talk of it being some time away? The EU has no reason to give us access to its single market without freedom of movement and it won't. Yet people want to just plod on anyway. Maybe there will be some small concessions but basically we will have to rely more on trade with other countries to pick our economy back up and those deals will take a whole lot of time to complete (once again, way more than the two years that we have to be out of the EU). Whatever your stance, it is just a fact that 'divorcing' from the EU will be unbelievably complex and take up so much of our government/public resources for probably the next decade. Other things which should have needed attention will now take a back seat to brexit. You can't just work one way for over 40 years and then just think it will have no negative impact to stop doing so.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 10:18]
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Brexit trade deals on 10:29 - Aug 18 with 2722 viewsdeanscfc

More evidence of the xenophobia/racism that exists within our country and has become more apparent as a result of brexit:

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/701293/race-hate-crimes-Britain-Brexit-ethnic-i

This is what happens as a result of a leave campaign which preached the horrors of EU immigration. I would have posted the BBC article which gives more detail but of course that would have been biased.
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Brexit trade deals on 11:29 - Aug 18 with 2684 viewsAnotherJohn

Brexit trade deals on 10:17 - Aug 18 by deanscfc

This sounds true, in theory, but the reality for many people is very different. Speaking personally as someone who has traveled around the world quite a bit, Europe would be the only place which I would want to live other than the UK, mainly due to proximity to family and the ability to fly home more frequently as needed. Where as previously, a British national could move to Europe just as if it were their own land and find a place to live that suited them, a job that suited them etc, now it will rely on being granted visa access and that visa access could very well be related to working in a particular industry. You have the potential situation of needing to be able to gain and keep sponsorship or risk losing your whole life in that country (I always remember seeing a British girl in Australia in tears because she had to leave her life including partner, friends etc due to her firm withdrawing its sponsorship.

Then there is the small matter of applying for a job in that industry which undoubtedly becomes much harder when you realise that EU nationals will be preferred for the jobs advertised. In fact I believe there is often a rule which states that companies have to justify why an EU national couldn't be found for the job. The world has changed and it will be anything but easy to move to Europe. With those people younger than me who wanted to study abroad or work in casual jobs - that just won't be an option like it was. The EU funded erasmus schemes won't exist making things far more expensive. Those who want to retire in Europe? Well...

Personally I had considered living in the Netherlands for a bit (again, mainly due to proximity to home) but from my own research both applying for jobs as an experiment and using expat forums, that has already become exponentially harder Why would European companies want to hire a British person 'who voted to leave the EU', particularly when they have no idea what will happen in two years time. I have another friend who is more actively looking for work in Europe and he has told me the same; companies now don't want to know in the way that they did before.

People talk about the EU being about to collapse. It's just complete nonsense. As if 27 countries working in union to trade together are just all at the same time suddenly going to say 'enough of this, we'd rather not bother'. Why has our pound fallen to a near all time low against the Euro since the referendum and why are bookies stating that the chance of us facing recession in the next two years is as high as 60%? Doesn't exactly leave us in a good negotiating position does it? Why does the market drop everytime brexit seems closer but ease when there is talk of it being some time away? The EU has no reason to give us access to its single market without freedom of movement and it won't. Yet people want to just plod on anyway. Maybe there will be some small concessions but basically we will have to rely more on trade with other countries to pick our economy back up and those deals will take a whole lot of time to complete (once again, way more than the two years that we have to be out of the EU). Whatever your stance, it is just a fact that 'divorcing' from the EU will be unbelievably complex and take up so much of our government/public resources for probably the next decade. Other things which should have needed attention will now take a back seat to brexit. You can't just work one way for over 40 years and then just think it will have no negative impact to stop doing so.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 10:18]


Having worked abroad myself (practice not 'theory'), I don't find your arguments very convincing. If you have skills then you will get work. Incidentally I'd say there is much less racism and xenophobia in the UK than many other countries.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 11:32]
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Brexit trade deals on 11:53 - Aug 18 with 2663 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 11:29 - Aug 18 by AnotherJohn

Having worked abroad myself (practice not 'theory'), I don't find your arguments very convincing. If you have skills then you will get work. Incidentally I'd say there is much less racism and xenophobia in the UK than many other countries.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 11:32]


Jeez.. What a well thought out reply. Such simple statements are what have got us into this mess : 'take back control', 'if you have skills you'll get work', 'other countries are more racist'. I've seen those things written hundreds of times in the daily mail comments section. I mean 'f*ck the reality of the current and future situation, f*ck what any experts say...f*ck really thinking about it full stop. If the emotion feels right then do it'. That's basically the way that most leave voters minds work.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 12:01]
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Brexit trade deals on 12:25 - Aug 18 with 2637 viewsLohengrin

Brexit trade deals on 09:53 - Aug 17 by deanscfc

Didn't get half way through the article but I didn't need to. Bottom line is brexit is a needlessly going to set our country back a decade or more and for what gain? People will claim issues of sovereignty but really anything like that was an afterthought. It was largely a xenophobic vote inspired by right wing media horror stories. How many people can HONESTLY tell me that their money is now worth so much less abroad? I already know the answer to that.


I don't buy that at all, I'm afraid. If you look at what is purported to be the epicentre of Brexit discontent in terms of percentage vote, the North-east coastal area, there is little in the way of mass migration evident. When the argument was advanced that EU membership, indeed the entire process of globalisation as panacea is the key to prosperity the folk in those areas have only to look around them for evidence of just how hollow that claim is for the country as a whole. Their steel industry gone; their coal industry gone; their fishing industry gone; their manufacturing industry gone.

For them and millions like them on these islands who have seen their standard of life decline sharply this last thirty or so years voting for Brexit was far from the irrational spasm that many would have us believe, you included. Their decision was dictated by what they have suffered and borne witness to not by the papers or telly.

An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Brexit trade deals on 12:38 - Aug 18 with 2624 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 12:25 - Aug 18 by Lohengrin

I don't buy that at all, I'm afraid. If you look at what is purported to be the epicentre of Brexit discontent in terms of percentage vote, the North-east coastal area, there is little in the way of mass migration evident. When the argument was advanced that EU membership, indeed the entire process of globalisation as panacea is the key to prosperity the folk in those areas have only to look around them for evidence of just how hollow that claim is for the country as a whole. Their steel industry gone; their coal industry gone; their fishing industry gone; their manufacturing industry gone.

For them and millions like them on these islands who have seen their standard of life decline sharply this last thirty or so years voting for Brexit was far from the irrational spasm that many would have us believe, you included. Their decision was dictated by what they have suffered and borne witness to not by the papers or telly.


Just like the people in the Welsh valleys who despite being rebuilt and funded by the EU voted to leave. Would the conservatives have given them the same level of funding? When questioned on the Welsh news why they were voting leave they talked about 'foreigners taking jobs'. People voted based on what they were told, what they read in their tabloid newspapers..the scare stories and anti immigrant propoganda. Yes their standard of living isn't as good as maybe it should have been but it is a far cry to blame that on the EU. The blame lies largely with their own government. Yes, you're right to say that people were unhappy. There was an element of a protest vote but it was definitely to do with what they were told about immigration. It was an uneducated vote and really should never have been left to the people when campaigners could tell such lies and the media is so biased. Do you think their lives will get better with a likely recesssion? with the withdrawal of EU funding for the poorest areas? With the manufacturing industry already now contracting since brexit (along with pretty much all others)? Do you think that public services will now improve suddenly given that so much government/public resources are going to go towards sorting out brexit?
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Brexit trade deals on 12:46 - Aug 18 with 2608 viewsdickythorpe

The British fishing industry will thrive now we are out of the EU.
We should be proud of that industry.
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Brexit trade deals on 12:51 - Aug 18 with 2604 viewsLohengrin

Brexit trade deals on 12:38 - Aug 18 by deanscfc

Just like the people in the Welsh valleys who despite being rebuilt and funded by the EU voted to leave. Would the conservatives have given them the same level of funding? When questioned on the Welsh news why they were voting leave they talked about 'foreigners taking jobs'. People voted based on what they were told, what they read in their tabloid newspapers..the scare stories and anti immigrant propoganda. Yes their standard of living isn't as good as maybe it should have been but it is a far cry to blame that on the EU. The blame lies largely with their own government. Yes, you're right to say that people were unhappy. There was an element of a protest vote but it was definitely to do with what they were told about immigration. It was an uneducated vote and really should never have been left to the people when campaigners could tell such lies and the media is so biased. Do you think their lives will get better with a likely recesssion? with the withdrawal of EU funding for the poorest areas? With the manufacturing industry already now contracting since brexit (along with pretty much all others)? Do you think that public services will now improve suddenly given that so much government/public resources are going to go towards sorting out brexit?


I find myself in the curious position of having been a life-long, outspoken advocate of European Union yet find my sympathies lie entirely with the people who voted Brexit. If it was, as you say, a protest vote then I share entirely their disillusion with the political class, on both sides of the Channel, who have failed us all.

I don't know what happens next, Dean. I possess no special insight but I would venture to suggest that twenty years hence we may find ourselves founder members of a radically reformed and geographically western-limited EU.

An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Brexit trade deals on 13:15 - Aug 18 with 2578 viewsdeanscfc

Brexit trade deals on 12:51 - Aug 18 by Lohengrin

I find myself in the curious position of having been a life-long, outspoken advocate of European Union yet find my sympathies lie entirely with the people who voted Brexit. If it was, as you say, a protest vote then I share entirely their disillusion with the political class, on both sides of the Channel, who have failed us all.

I don't know what happens next, Dean. I possess no special insight but I would venture to suggest that twenty years hence we may find ourselves founder members of a radically reformed and geographically western-limited EU.


My sympathies lie most with the younger generations (i'm talking about the ones who could be bothered to vote and the ones who weren't yet old enough to vote but will be very affected by the decision). Those are the ones who won't have the same rights in Europe as previous generations did and they will have to find their way throughout many years of economic uncertainty and probably recession. The thing is, the internet, facebook etc has meant that most of the world has become closer and more aligned. Nowadays kids do have friends in European countries and they travel more, yet we as a country have just taken a decision to separate ourselves from all of these closest neighbours. That's also what happens when the older generation dominate a vote but then I suppose they can't be blamed for that. Most 20 year olds spend more time thinking about who to vote out of x factor than they do on an EU referendum until its too late and they realise what it means for them. This country is f*cked up in so many ways.
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Brexit trade deals on 13:34 - Aug 18 with 2564 viewsAnotherJohn

Brexit trade deals on 11:53 - Aug 18 by deanscfc

Jeez.. What a well thought out reply. Such simple statements are what have got us into this mess : 'take back control', 'if you have skills you'll get work', 'other countries are more racist'. I've seen those things written hundreds of times in the daily mail comments section. I mean 'f*ck the reality of the current and future situation, f*ck what any experts say...f*ck really thinking about it full stop. If the emotion feels right then do it'. That's basically the way that most leave voters minds work.
[Post edited 18 Aug 2016 12:01]


I suppose I was trying to add a caveat to my claim about opportunities for work abroad by saying that this depends on having skills to offer. Is it really such a sophisticated argument to say that the referendum result can be attributed to the manipulation of uneducated people by a segment of the mass media? Lohengrin is closer to the mark with his picture of alienated working class communities that have experienced the sharp end of globalisation and come to a reasoned conclusion about where their interests lie. But of course debates about sovereignty, the democratic deficit, and the general direction of Commission policy have extended right across the social classes - from Tony Benn to Arthur Scargill if you like. In fact the critics of the EU include many people who had the benefit of a rather good education.
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