| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 21:55 - Mar 4 with 5710 views | Dewi1jack |
Fair play.
The club keep releasing news like this after a cracking team performance.
Do you think it's that they hope no-one will notice? |  |
| If you wake up breathing, thats a good start to your day and you'll make many thousands of people envious. |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 21:59 - Mar 4 with 5655 views | jack2jack |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 21:55 - Mar 4 by Dewi1jack |
Fair play.
The club keep releasing news like this after a cracking team performance.
Do you think it's that they hope no-one will notice? |
Odd timing as you say! |  | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 22:39 - Mar 4 with 5485 views | dobjack2 |
Doesn't include the Ayew and Williams transfers |  | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 23:39 - Mar 4 with 5304 views | westside |
Give Monk new contract sack him.
Give Guidolin new contract sack him.
Give Bradley new contract sack him.
How much will all that cost ? |  | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 00:22 - Mar 5 with 5160 views | MillJack |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 23:39 - Mar 4 by westside |
Give Monk new contract sack him.
Give Guidolin new contract sack him.
Give Bradley new contract sack him.
How much will all that cost ? |
To be fair, Bradley was still in his probationary period so hopefully his sacking didn't cost much! |  | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 00:35 - Mar 5 with 5119 views | ItchySphincter |
Most of the c*nts on here moaning for the last five years about the club not spending the money. I'll leave the rest if you go fill in the blanks...... |  |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 00:44 - Mar 5 with 5090 views | epaul |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 23:39 - Mar 4 by westside |
Give Monk new contract sack him.
Give Guidolin new contract sack him.
Give Bradley new contract sack him.
How much will all that cost ? |
Who cares the right decision everytime |  |
| The hair and the beard have gone I am now conforming to society, tis a sad day
The b*stards are coming back though |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 01:13 - Mar 5 with 5040 views | Tom1912 |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 22:39 - Mar 4 by dobjack2 |
Doesn't include the Ayew and Williams transfers |
Or the Olssen, Carroll, Narsingh, Ayew signings + any of the summer signings in August + 2 managerial sackings which I imagine will take up a lot of that cash. | | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 01:52 - Mar 5 with 4993 views | pikeypaul |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 22:39 - Mar 4 by dobjack2 |
Doesn't include the Ayew and Williams transfers |
Huw,do us all a favour and feck off. |  |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:49 - Mar 5 with 4804 views | Shaky |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 22:39 - Mar 4 by dobjack2 |
Doesn't include the Ayew and Williams transfers |
And your point is?
Ayew came in on a free so his insurance value was probably low; what would have happened if he had suffered a career ending injury before his transfer and Ash's legs had finally given out?
The reality of these results is that last summer the club was 3 quarters of the way toward financial insolvency.
Further, although we'll need to see the full accounts to confirm this, they probably also had a Barclays overdraft in the region of £25 million, and in that position there was certainly a non-trivial risk the club would imminently fall into bankruptcy.
Perhaps the more lucid among you will now reign in the hysteria regarding the sell outs, and come to realise it was absolutely imperative to bring in new investors with the financial muscle to inject fresh capital should that become necessary.
Of course in the process they stitched up the Trust, but firstly I don't personally believe the sellers fully understood the extent to which that was going to happen, and secondly the Trust clearly made several blunders in totally failing to engage with them when their initial attempts to sell were blocked and dismissed out of hand.
Yes they still had a tiny bit of equity capital as a cushion left at the time of the sale, but any manager who risks running that down to the bone with an always unknown future is an idiot; it is entirely reasonable to expect Jenkins and the rest of the board genuinely believed they were acting to save the club.
And if you ask why they didn't come clean and tell the fans then about the reason for attempts to sell, you simply don't go out and advertise from the rooftops the fact you are on the brink of bankruptcy when trying to sell shares in a company. |  |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:54 - Mar 5 with 4778 views | somersetsimon |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:49 - Mar 5 by Shaky |
And your point is?
Ayew came in on a free so his insurance value was probably low; what would have happened if he had suffered a career ending injury before his transfer and Ash's legs had finally given out?
The reality of these results is that last summer the club was 3 quarters of the way toward financial insolvency.
Further, although we'll need to see the full accounts to confirm this, they probably also had a Barclays overdraft in the region of £25 million, and in that position there was certainly a non-trivial risk the club would imminently fall into bankruptcy.
Perhaps the more lucid among you will now reign in the hysteria regarding the sell outs, and come to realise it was absolutely imperative to bring in new investors with the financial muscle to inject fresh capital should that become necessary.
Of course in the process they stitched up the Trust, but firstly I don't personally believe the sellers fully understood the extent to which that was going to happen, and secondly the Trust clearly made several blunders in totally failing to engage with them when their initial attempts to sell were blocked and dismissed out of hand.
Yes they still had a tiny bit of equity capital as a cushion left at the time of the sale, but any manager who risks running that down to the bone with an always unknown future is an idiot; it is entirely reasonable to expect Jenkins and the rest of the board genuinely believed they were acting to save the club.
And if you ask why they didn't come clean and tell the fans then about the reason for attempts to sell, you simply don't go out and advertise from the rooftops the fact you are on the brink of bankruptcy when trying to sell shares in a company. |
"And if you ask why they didn't come clean and tell the fans then about the reason for attempts to sell, you simply don't go out and advertise from the rooftops the fact you are on the brink of bankruptcy when trying to sell shares in a company."
But, the new owners would have done their own financial due diligence checks, so would have known exactly what the situation was when they agreed to buy. |  | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:55 - Mar 5 with 4771 views | Shaky |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:54 - Mar 5 by somersetsimon |
"And if you ask why they didn't come clean and tell the fans then about the reason for attempts to sell, you simply don't go out and advertise from the rooftops the fact you are on the brink of bankruptcy when trying to sell shares in a company."
But, the new owners would have done their own financial due diligence checks, so would have known exactly what the situation was when they agreed to buy. |
What's you point? Remember the process went on for over a year. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:05 - Mar 5 with 4732 views | waynekerr55 |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:49 - Mar 5 by Shaky |
And your point is?
Ayew came in on a free so his insurance value was probably low; what would have happened if he had suffered a career ending injury before his transfer and Ash's legs had finally given out?
The reality of these results is that last summer the club was 3 quarters of the way toward financial insolvency.
Further, although we'll need to see the full accounts to confirm this, they probably also had a Barclays overdraft in the region of £25 million, and in that position there was certainly a non-trivial risk the club would imminently fall into bankruptcy.
Perhaps the more lucid among you will now reign in the hysteria regarding the sell outs, and come to realise it was absolutely imperative to bring in new investors with the financial muscle to inject fresh capital should that become necessary.
Of course in the process they stitched up the Trust, but firstly I don't personally believe the sellers fully understood the extent to which that was going to happen, and secondly the Trust clearly made several blunders in totally failing to engage with them when their initial attempts to sell were blocked and dismissed out of hand.
Yes they still had a tiny bit of equity capital as a cushion left at the time of the sale, but any manager who risks running that down to the bone with an always unknown future is an idiot; it is entirely reasonable to expect Jenkins and the rest of the board genuinely believed they were acting to save the club.
And if you ask why they didn't come clean and tell the fans then about the reason for attempts to sell, you simply don't go out and advertise from the rooftops the fact you are on the brink of bankruptcy when trying to sell shares in a company. |
There is some pertinence to what you say Shaky, however they all awarded themselves huge pay rises.
Yes we needed investment, they should have gone about it in a different way. And how much of those losses are down to The chairman's ineptitude in playing real life football manager? [Post edited 5 Mar 2017 8:07]
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:08 - Mar 5 with 4712 views | somersetsimon |
The article also says that they are predicting a profit of over £10M for this coming year. I assume that takes into account all the managerial comings and goings and transfers and is based on us finishing no worse that 17th.
Does anyone know if we still have any exceptional costs for this year (e.g. training ground)? If not, we are treading a fine line. | | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:11 - Mar 5 with 4693 views | somersetsimon |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 01:13 - Mar 5 by Tom1912 |
Or the Olssen, Carroll, Narsingh, Ayew signings + any of the summer signings in August + 2 managerial sackings which I imagine will take up a lot of that cash. |
It does say that they are predicting a £10M profit for this year, which should take this all into account.
I guess any new summer signings will have to be paid for out of the sale of Borja. Also, how much could we get for Gomis now? | | | |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:14 - Mar 5 with 4672 views | Shaky |
And without wishing to bash the Trust further, they had access to the management accounting when the severe financial deterioration became apparent, as was already evident to me at the time the last set of audited accounts came out. Indeed the reported loss for '16 is bang in the range I estimated on Jackarmy when I first took a look.
And yet the Trust continued to express its complete satisfaction with the financial position!
I'm sorry, but the Trust sub-group that uttered those verdicts didn't have a fcuking clue what they were doing.
If they hadn't have been totally asleep at the switch, perhaps the focus of the Trust might have been a little more constructive, so instead of trying to stiff the shareholders they could have actually acted to support and participate in the urgently needed fund-raising. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:19 - Mar 5 with 4647 views | Shaky |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:05 - Mar 5 by waynekerr55 |
There is some pertinence to what you say Shaky, however they all awarded themselves huge pay rises.
Yes we needed investment, they should have gone about it in a different way. And how much of those losses are down to The chairman's ineptitude in playing real life football manager? [Post edited 5 Mar 2017 8:07]
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No doubt mistakes were make.
But it is only Swansea fans who until very recently harboured a near religious faith that Jenkins could walk on water.
Everybody makes mistakes, especially in the transfer market, and with only £ 1 million of paid in risk capital in the club, the margin for error was wafer thin. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:44 - Mar 5 with 4532 views | Kilkennyjack |
Why would you spend money you did not have on training facilities and Academy ?
That could be spent at a better time - unless balancing the books was not a priority ?
Also the authorisation of all the monies spent should have had the impact understood - so we did not just suddenly appear in this position - the people in charge took all the decisions that created this situation. They did it eyes wide open.
Seems a bit strange to me when most of the income is both significant and predictable.
Mmmm... |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:48 - Mar 5 with 4513 views | waynekerr55 |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:19 - Mar 5 by Shaky |
No doubt mistakes were make.
But it is only Swansea fans who until very recently harboured a near religious faith that Jenkins could walk on water.
Everybody makes mistakes, especially in the transfer market, and with only £ 1 million of paid in risk capital in the club, the margin for error was wafer thin. |
So true buddy.
Which makes it even more crucial that either (a) Jenkins is replaced by a competent DoF or (b) is held rigorously accountable for his actions. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:51 - Mar 5 with 4504 views | Shaky |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:44 - Mar 5 by Kilkennyjack |
Why would you spend money you did not have on training facilities and Academy ?
That could be spent at a better time - unless balancing the books was not a priority ?
Also the authorisation of all the monies spent should have had the impact understood - so we did not just suddenly appear in this position - the people in charge took all the decisions that created this situation. They did it eyes wide open.
Seems a bit strange to me when most of the income is both significant and predictable.
Mmmm... |
That sounds reasonable at face value, but think about it a bit more and you should come to realise it is sheer fantasy to believe you can predict with 100% accuracy how a transfer will pan out.
Swansea got very lucky with a series of big wins early in the prem; Sinclair, Joe Allen, Bony, and that gave the club a decent cushion.
However, premier league football is a high stakes game, with decent players costing £10 million up.
And sure enough when the lucky streak ran out, boom, you're suddenly skint!
As I said it is only the Swansea faithful who thought Jenkins could walk on water, and it doesn't take a genius psychologist to realise the strength of the reaction subsequently against him is akin to that of a jilted lover. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 09:06 - Mar 5 with 4420 views | Uxbridge |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 07:49 - Mar 5 by Shaky |
And your point is?
Ayew came in on a free so his insurance value was probably low; what would have happened if he had suffered a career ending injury before his transfer and Ash's legs had finally given out?
The reality of these results is that last summer the club was 3 quarters of the way toward financial insolvency.
Further, although we'll need to see the full accounts to confirm this, they probably also had a Barclays overdraft in the region of £25 million, and in that position there was certainly a non-trivial risk the club would imminently fall into bankruptcy.
Perhaps the more lucid among you will now reign in the hysteria regarding the sell outs, and come to realise it was absolutely imperative to bring in new investors with the financial muscle to inject fresh capital should that become necessary.
Of course in the process they stitched up the Trust, but firstly I don't personally believe the sellers fully understood the extent to which that was going to happen, and secondly the Trust clearly made several blunders in totally failing to engage with them when their initial attempts to sell were blocked and dismissed out of hand.
Yes they still had a tiny bit of equity capital as a cushion left at the time of the sale, but any manager who risks running that down to the bone with an always unknown future is an idiot; it is entirely reasonable to expect Jenkins and the rest of the board genuinely believed they were acting to save the club.
And if you ask why they didn't come clean and tell the fans then about the reason for attempts to sell, you simply don't go out and advertise from the rooftops the fact you are on the brink of bankruptcy when trying to sell shares in a company. |
Well, a few things here...
This whole equity pot thing doesn't make sense to me. There isn't a £1m pot just sitting out there to sort out any financial issues. And anyway, such things are dwarfed by the 100m or so coming in every year.
Brink of bankruptcy? Come on now, not even close. A significant income stream, guaranteed to a certain level even if relegated, significant assets on the pitch (as demonstrated by the summer sales). If you were going to argue technically insolvent then it'd be more accurate ... Long since been saying on here that cash flow is the real issue here. That's why sales had to be made before buying.
As for the requirement for investment, well we're 9 months in and there hasn't been any. So, not quite desperation stakes. I'm all for investment anyway, even have no major concerns with an injection of share capital if done properly (not saying that's the Trust's position, there isn't one without an actual proposal I suspect).
This is the funny thing. The Trust was never outright against the old shareholders selling up. It couldn't be. However the next owners had to be the right ones, and the sellers did zero due diligence on that score. Selling to secure the security of the club? Not a chance. Their own bank balance? Too true.
However, what I would say, is that the Americans are making the right sorts of choices to date. Not taking on mountains of debt to secure our premier league status, as if it could guarantee that anyway, look to grow revenues where there is scope to do so. Given the revenues coming in, the need for equity for anything other than capex is low IMO. The club can easily be self sufficient if run properly. |  |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 09:10 - Mar 5 with 4396 views | Uxbridge |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 08:48 - Mar 5 by waynekerr55 |
So true buddy.
Which makes it even more crucial that either (a) Jenkins is replaced by a competent DoF or (b) is held rigorously accountable for his actions. |
There's zero change that Jenkins holds the purse strings now.
What I would say is that, from what I've seen to date, there's significantly more professionalism in the running of the club these days. Not that I think Jenkins had a free reign before. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 09:29 - Mar 5 with 4312 views | Shaky |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 09:06 - Mar 5 by Uxbridge |
Well, a few things here...
This whole equity pot thing doesn't make sense to me. There isn't a £1m pot just sitting out there to sort out any financial issues. And anyway, such things are dwarfed by the 100m or so coming in every year.
Brink of bankruptcy? Come on now, not even close. A significant income stream, guaranteed to a certain level even if relegated, significant assets on the pitch (as demonstrated by the summer sales). If you were going to argue technically insolvent then it'd be more accurate ... Long since been saying on here that cash flow is the real issue here. That's why sales had to be made before buying.
As for the requirement for investment, well we're 9 months in and there hasn't been any. So, not quite desperation stakes. I'm all for investment anyway, even have no major concerns with an injection of share capital if done properly (not saying that's the Trust's position, there isn't one without an actual proposal I suspect).
This is the funny thing. The Trust was never outright against the old shareholders selling up. It couldn't be. However the next owners had to be the right ones, and the sellers did zero due diligence on that score. Selling to secure the security of the club? Not a chance. Their own bank balance? Too true.
However, what I would say, is that the Americans are making the right sorts of choices to date. Not taking on mountains of debt to secure our premier league status, as if it could guarantee that anyway, look to grow revenues where there is scope to do so. Given the revenues coming in, the need for equity for anything other than capex is low IMO. The club can easily be self sufficient if run properly. |
Morning, see you have your Spicy hat on today 
I've made my point and don't really want to get bogged down in detail, but I'll just clarify one point.
Certainly the problems started to manifest as cash-flow related, seen in racking up net non-operating debt of what £25-30 million. But ultimately cash-flow and profits should reconcile.
And with the losses the club made in '16, total equity capital & reserves would have been reduced to just over £5m. Net debt of (conservatively) £25 million and you have book gearing of a cool 500%!!
High street financing isn't really my area, but I have no doubt your average Barclays branch manager is on the verge of a nervous breakdown with that kind of lending profile.
What if the club had been relegated last season, as looked eminently possible last winter?
I repeat, Jenkins would have been an irresponsible, reckless idiot not to have tried to raise funds at that point.
Certainly everything - cash-flow and profits - improved dramatically as the transfer window got underway, but hindsight is always 20/20; objectively the situation was bloody dire. | |
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| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 09:45 - Mar 5 with 4256 views | Uxbridge |
| £14.6m loss for year ending 31/7/16 on 09:29 - Mar 5 by Shaky |
Morning, see you have your Spicy hat on today
I've made my point and don't really want to get bogged down in detail, but I'll just clarify one point.
Certainly the problems started to manifest as cash-flow related, seen in racking up net non-operating debt of what £25-30 million. But ultimately cash-flow and profits should reconcile.
And with the losses the club made in '16, total equity capital & reserves would have been reduced to just over £5m. Net debt of (conservatively) £25 million and you have book gearing of a cool 500%!!
High street financing isn't really my area, but I have no doubt your average Barclays branch manager is on the verge of a nervous breakdown with that kind of lending profile.
What if the club had been relegated last season, as looked eminently possible last winter?
I repeat, Jenkins would have been an irresponsible, reckless idiot not to have tried to raise funds at that point.
Certainly everything - cash-flow and profits - improved dramatically as the transfer window got underway, but hindsight is always 20/20; objectively the situation was bloody dire. |
I'm in a very good mood as it goes. Given I'm going to spend the day decorating, I really shouldn't be. Such is life.
Anyway, we're going to have to agree to disagree on the drivers for sale. Not necessarily desirability ... Wouldn't argue the Americans will be able to better secure any necessary credit lines. And, given the nature of the PL payment timings, some form of credit line would always be necessary to smooth things over.
FWIW, I agree on the real need to plan for various scenarios. This is something the Trust pushed for at the club over a year ago, and happened. | |
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