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Is football institutionally racist ? 22:46 - Oct 20 with 6324 viewsLoyal

And what does that mean to you ?

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:07 - Oct 22 with 1148 viewsHighjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:00 - Oct 22 by whoflungdung

Why are Chinese good at table tennis


Its either because:

A) they f ucking love the game and play it more than anyone else resulting in a much higher skill level.

Or

B) all Chinese men are genetically shorter therefore they are closer to the table and their special Chinese eyes can focus on the ball more accurately and can actually see the ball in slow motion.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:29 - Oct 22 with 1128 viewswhoflungdung

Or that they have a natural ability ,like the Danes in badminton


Interesting debate though


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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:40 - Oct 22 with 1118 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:07 - Oct 22 by Highjack

Its either because:

A) they f ucking love the game and play it more than anyone else resulting in a much higher skill level.

Or

B) all Chinese men are genetically shorter therefore they are closer to the table and their special Chinese eyes can focus on the ball more accurately and can actually see the ball in slow motion.


You are mixing up reasoning again.

You are attributing success in one specific sport and assuming all sports must have the same variables. Which is pretty silly really isn't it.

Are you saying Usain Bolt loves sprinting more than anyone else in the world which is why he is the best? I am sure you mentioned the word juvenile earlier, I am sure that thought must come under that bracket does it not?

Some sports are far more physical than others to which no amount of dedication will get some to the top if the genetics are not correct, others require practice. You are attributing success at sports requiring practice to sports requiring physical dominance. Physical dominance is of course physiological... which is of course genetic... which of course is region specific.

Do you honestly believe if Ricky Gervais moved to Jamaica as a 2 week old baby and was paired up with Bolt for their entire lives and showed the exact amount of desire, determination and love for sprinting as Bolt did. Practiced exactly the same, ate the same, slept the same... would Ricky Gervais be doing the 100m in 9.5 seconds?

Of course not, Bolts genetics are far superior in relation to sprinting - that is down to his region of ancestry (which then added to hard work/determination etc etc) makes a champ.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 16:45]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:48 - Oct 22 with 1108 viewsHighjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:40 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

You are mixing up reasoning again.

You are attributing success in one specific sport and assuming all sports must have the same variables. Which is pretty silly really isn't it.

Are you saying Usain Bolt loves sprinting more than anyone else in the world which is why he is the best? I am sure you mentioned the word juvenile earlier, I am sure that thought must come under that bracket does it not?

Some sports are far more physical than others to which no amount of dedication will get some to the top if the genetics are not correct, others require practice. You are attributing success at sports requiring practice to sports requiring physical dominance. Physical dominance is of course physiological... which is of course genetic... which of course is region specific.

Do you honestly believe if Ricky Gervais moved to Jamaica as a 2 week old baby and was paired up with Bolt for their entire lives and showed the exact amount of desire, determination and love for sprinting as Bolt did. Practiced exactly the same, ate the same, slept the same... would Ricky Gervais be doing the 100m in 9.5 seconds?

Of course not, Bolts genetics are far superior in relation to sprinting - that is down to his region of ancestry (which then added to hard work/determination etc etc) makes a champ.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 16:45]


I agree the genetics have to be right, but the skin colour is irrelevant.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:50 - Oct 22 with 1105 viewsHighjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 14:22 - Oct 22 by whoflungdung

Name me an international black swimmer


Why are black athletes pre eminent up to 400 metres only


Look at all the shiny medals she's managed to win.


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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:53 - Oct 22 with 1105 viewsHighjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 14:22 - Oct 22 by whoflungdung

Name me an international black swimmer


Why are black athletes pre eminent up to 400 metres only


Here's another one for the ladies and the gays:


The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:56 - Oct 22 with 1099 viewsJoe_bradshaw

Is football institutionally racist ? on 14:22 - Oct 22 by whoflungdung

Name me an international black swimmer


Why are black athletes pre eminent up to 400 metres only


It’s as though Kenyans, Ethiopians and Mo never existed.

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:00 - Oct 22 with 1094 viewslondonlisa2001

Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:40 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

You are mixing up reasoning again.

You are attributing success in one specific sport and assuming all sports must have the same variables. Which is pretty silly really isn't it.

Are you saying Usain Bolt loves sprinting more than anyone else in the world which is why he is the best? I am sure you mentioned the word juvenile earlier, I am sure that thought must come under that bracket does it not?

Some sports are far more physical than others to which no amount of dedication will get some to the top if the genetics are not correct, others require practice. You are attributing success at sports requiring practice to sports requiring physical dominance. Physical dominance is of course physiological... which is of course genetic... which of course is region specific.

Do you honestly believe if Ricky Gervais moved to Jamaica as a 2 week old baby and was paired up with Bolt for their entire lives and showed the exact amount of desire, determination and love for sprinting as Bolt did. Practiced exactly the same, ate the same, slept the same... would Ricky Gervais be doing the 100m in 9.5 seconds?

Of course not, Bolts genetics are far superior in relation to sprinting - that is down to his region of ancestry (which then added to hard work/determination etc etc) makes a champ.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 16:45]


Ricky Gervais could do 100m in 9.5 seconds if he was fired from a cannon perhaps?

I think someone should try.
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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:03 - Oct 22 with 1092 viewsHighjack

"There’s an old joke — or, at least, that’s what some people have the nerve to call it — that goes something like this: Why don’t black people swim? Their bones are too dense to float.

That’s it. That’s the punchline.

It’s patently untrue, of course. But I’ve heard it more times than I care to remember."

http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/article95462947.html


"Such stereotypes are not uncommon. A recent study indicates that even among sports coaches "some stereotype replication and susceptibility to natural ability stereotypes due to an overemphasis on biological determinism, and modest recognition of less immediately apparent developmental factors exists."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/25/race.olympics2008

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:10 - Oct 22 with 1084 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 16:48 - Oct 22 by Highjack

I agree the genetics have to be right, but the skin colour is irrelevant.


We are getting somewhere then.

So if you agree genetics have to be right... and you agree that genetics are dependent on region - then the fact that white people and black people broadly speaking are from vastly different regions and vastly differing climates and conditions, then surely you understand that there are clear differences in the main between white and black people's genetics.

East Africans don't just happen to be black - they are black because they come from East Africa. By saying they just happen to be black would give the impression that they have every chance of being white - they don't.

The problem we have is we are having an intermittent broad and specific discussion and it is being flagged up as and when it suits. If we are speaking broadly then black people due to their heritage will have naturally stronger frame, slightly different bone composition and muscle composition to white people... but it is a massive sliding scale, there are massive differences in even their own races - region dependent.

So if we are discussing a specific sport then we should go region specific, if we are discussing the general notion of stronger more athletic and powerful athletes then race (or skin colour if you like) is strongly linked due to the sliding scale of difference between hot and cold regions.... of which skin colour is clearly linked.

So to summarise that point:- by saying skin colour is irrelevant isn't true, because if Usain Bolt was white then he would not be descended from that area and would not have the genes that gives him that advantage.

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:15 - Oct 22 with 1073 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:03 - Oct 22 by Highjack

"There’s an old joke — or, at least, that’s what some people have the nerve to call it — that goes something like this: Why don’t black people swim? Their bones are too dense to float.

That’s it. That’s the punchline.

It’s patently untrue, of course. But I’ve heard it more times than I care to remember."

http://www.sacbee.com/opinion/article95462947.html


"Such stereotypes are not uncommon. A recent study indicates that even among sports coaches "some stereotype replication and susceptibility to natural ability stereotypes due to an overemphasis on biological determinism, and modest recognition of less immediately apparent developmental factors exists."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/aug/25/race.olympics2008


They are nice quotes from people who clearly see the facts as offensive, but they just don't represent reality. Bone density differences are just plain fact. People are not trying to find out if it is true - that has already been determined - however there are now studies into why.

''A study tested whether racial differences in bone density can be explained by differences in bone metabolism and lifestyle. A cohort of 402 black and white men and women, ages 25—36 yr, was studied at the Kaiser Permanente Medical Care Program in Northern California, a prepaid health plan. Body composition (fat, lean, and bone mineral density) was measured using a Hologic-2000 dual-energy x-ray densitometer. Muscle strength, blood and urine chemistry values related to calcium metabolism, bone turnover, growth factors, and level of sex and adrenal hormones were also measured. Medical history, physical activity, and lifestyle were assessed. Statistical analyses using t- and chi-square tests and multiple regression were done to determine whether racial difference in bone density remained after adjustment for covariates. Bone density at all skeletal sites was statistically significantly greater in black than in white subjects; on average, adjustment for covariates reduced the percentage density differences by 42% for men and 34% for women. Adjusted bone density at various skeletal sites was 4.5—16.1% higher for black than for white men and was 1.2—7.3% higher for black than for white women. We concluded that racial differences in bone mineral density are not accounted for by clinical or biochemical variables measured in early adulthood.''

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:17 - Oct 22 with 1069 viewsFlashberryjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 13:05 - Oct 21 by E20Jack

Thats not true at all. Muscle composition has everything to do with race, and it holds a lot of people back that want to do certain sports and thrusts others into it where they normally would prefer another.

You are talking about national/geographic specific sports and possibly funding with your examples (even though there are a host of black tennis players, I could name 20 just off the top of my head). What I a, discussing in relation to Perch's comments regarding black dominance on the track - that is heavily correlated to twich fibres - which has very much to do with race.

It is not just muscle composition of course, but indeed bone density - bone density is largely attributed to the fact there are very few black swimmers.
[Post edited 21 Oct 2017 13:10]


There should be more white athletes.......ability should have nothing to do with it.

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:22 - Oct 22 with 1061 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:17 - Oct 22 by Flashberryjack

There should be more white athletes.......ability should have nothing to do with it.


Think you are missing the point of the discussion here flash

I am not championing for more white athletes. I am explaining why it is largely dominated by certain races and regions. There will always be exceptions that manage to overcome their genetic deficiencies or indeed some who are luckily enough to not face them at all as the lovely photos of the medalists show - but the overwhelming trend is what we are looking at, not individual oddities and exceptions. Like Yao Ming in the NBA is 8 foot isnt he? To suggest that means it is not true Chinese are generally short would be mental - regardless of if you post a picture of him or not.

There can be no white athletes for all I care.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 17:24]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:35 - Oct 22 with 1050 viewslondonlisa2001

Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:22 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

Think you are missing the point of the discussion here flash

I am not championing for more white athletes. I am explaining why it is largely dominated by certain races and regions. There will always be exceptions that manage to overcome their genetic deficiencies or indeed some who are luckily enough to not face them at all as the lovely photos of the medalists show - but the overwhelming trend is what we are looking at, not individual oddities and exceptions. Like Yao Ming in the NBA is 8 foot isnt he? To suggest that means it is not true Chinese are generally short would be mental - regardless of if you post a picture of him or not.

There can be no white athletes for all I care.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 17:24]


On the height bit, with the exception of certain rare groupings, all races have the same ability to reach certain heights apparently.

It's to do with diet at certain points of your development.

As highjack pointed out, the average height in, for example, Japan, has increased dramatically due to an increase in protein (not Western food as it happens, just protein due to an increase in wealth).

Interestingly, the reverse is true in the US, who are getting left behind on average height, despite wealth, due to their reliance on crap food.

Within your tribal grouping, you are also going to be influenced by height of parents of course, but it's mainly diet. I read a really interesting article about it once, I'll try to dig it out. From memory, it was a study done by a Jewish person, who wanted to investigate why Jews were shorter.
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Is football institutionally racist ? on 18:10 - Oct 22 with 1021 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 17:35 - Oct 22 by londonlisa2001

On the height bit, with the exception of certain rare groupings, all races have the same ability to reach certain heights apparently.

It's to do with diet at certain points of your development.

As highjack pointed out, the average height in, for example, Japan, has increased dramatically due to an increase in protein (not Western food as it happens, just protein due to an increase in wealth).

Interestingly, the reverse is true in the US, who are getting left behind on average height, despite wealth, due to their reliance on crap food.

Within your tribal grouping, you are also going to be influenced by height of parents of course, but it's mainly diet. I read a really interesting article about it once, I'll try to dig it out. From memory, it was a study done by a Jewish person, who wanted to investigate why Jews were shorter.


It is an interesting theory and one I would happily look into but for me I believe it would have minimal impact, some impact I can see the logic behind - but height being determined by diet is something I would need one hell of a lot of convincing over.

British born Chinese for example. I do not believe that in general terms they would reach the same height on average as British born Europeans.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 18:12]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 18:25 - Oct 22 with 1010 viewsHighjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 18:10 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

It is an interesting theory and one I would happily look into but for me I believe it would have minimal impact, some impact I can see the logic behind - but height being determined by diet is something I would need one hell of a lot of convincing over.

British born Chinese for example. I do not believe that in general terms they would reach the same height on average as British born Europeans.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 18:12]


Average height always rises and falls. Records show that after the black death in the 14th century, average height in Britain shot up, thought to be due to a lower population having benefitted from higher agricultural production. Basically because nearly every f ucker had died off, there was more food to go around.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Is football institutionally racist ? on 18:36 - Oct 22 with 1005 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 18:25 - Oct 22 by Highjack

Average height always rises and falls. Records show that after the black death in the 14th century, average height in Britain shot up, thought to be due to a lower population having benefitted from higher agricultural production. Basically because nearly every f ucker had died off, there was more food to go around.


Yes I am sure there are certain impacts of nourishment to help growth - like anything, but there is clearly a pre-determined height too. If Peter Crouch was fed crisps from a baby I am sure he would still be taller than most of us. Not as tall as he is now maybe, I can accept that.

But if you took 15 German baby boys and brought them up in China, I doubt they would on average be 5 foot 6., and believe the reverse to be the same.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 18:40]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 19:07 - Oct 22 with 983 viewsswanjackal

Is football institutionally racist ? on 18:36 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

Yes I am sure there are certain impacts of nourishment to help growth - like anything, but there is clearly a pre-determined height too. If Peter Crouch was fed crisps from a baby I am sure he would still be taller than most of us. Not as tall as he is now maybe, I can accept that.

But if you took 15 German baby boys and brought them up in China, I doubt they would on average be 5 foot 6., and believe the reverse to be the same.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 18:40]


Reading all this back and forth, and I genuinely think both sides are arguing two different things on the evolutionary scale when it comes to nutrition and height, and even other traits in this.

E20 seems to be arguing from a single generation shift, where there are clear differences in height and that even though nutrition can allow extra growth, it has little effect on the average height growth of a specific population over a small time sample.

High and Lisa seem to be looking at a long path, where continued improved nutrition through generations will lead to rises (although numerous other factors will come into play as well as diet), until a carrying capacity is reached. All humans share the same genetic blocks, hence potential in all groups can rise over time to the same level, especially if all factors in an environment are conductive of growth.

It's an odd situation where both sets have validity. Nutrition has an affect on short term height increase, but genetics have a higher impact. As selection takes place over generations, then potential growth overall of the population will rise due to better diet, and the stereotypes will be lessened, and sped up ,especially as global groups breed and mix gene pools.

There are currently specific observable differences between groups (as a generality) , driven by thousands of years of regional genetic variance, but they will no doubt alter and change as humans evolve and intermix, but this isn't a generational thing, but multi generational.

So in conclusion, I don't believe football in the UK to be institutionally racist.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hypocritically hypocritical !

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 19:23 - Oct 22 with 974 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 19:07 - Oct 22 by swanjackal

Reading all this back and forth, and I genuinely think both sides are arguing two different things on the evolutionary scale when it comes to nutrition and height, and even other traits in this.

E20 seems to be arguing from a single generation shift, where there are clear differences in height and that even though nutrition can allow extra growth, it has little effect on the average height growth of a specific population over a small time sample.

High and Lisa seem to be looking at a long path, where continued improved nutrition through generations will lead to rises (although numerous other factors will come into play as well as diet), until a carrying capacity is reached. All humans share the same genetic blocks, hence potential in all groups can rise over time to the same level, especially if all factors in an environment are conductive of growth.

It's an odd situation where both sets have validity. Nutrition has an affect on short term height increase, but genetics have a higher impact. As selection takes place over generations, then potential growth overall of the population will rise due to better diet, and the stereotypes will be lessened, and sped up ,especially as global groups breed and mix gene pools.

There are currently specific observable differences between groups (as a generality) , driven by thousands of years of regional genetic variance, but they will no doubt alter and change as humans evolve and intermix, but this isn't a generational thing, but multi generational.

So in conclusion, I don't believe football in the UK to be institutionally racist.


Again you seem to have nailed exactly what I was saying. Thanks once more.

I agree nutrition and other variables can affect such things as height, but as you say it is genetic and driven by evolution of regional specific conditions. Hence what I was saying that if you stick 15 German babies in China and feed them rice and vegetables - they still wont conform to the 5 foot 6 average. They may indeed be shorter than they would have been but their genetics will still make them relatively tall people.

This extends to the athletics debate. Evolution has made people of certain regions a certain way in order to best suit their environment. Be that height, bone strength, skin colour, muscle composition, use of fat, fat storage, chemical balances - literally anything. So those that descend from these areas will have certain genetic advantages over others and also disadvantages.

As I mentioned before, the main issue with this debate is it started as a broad discussion where race is entirely relevant and then morphed into a specific one in which regions were more accurate. But the bottom line of either is that it doesn't matter how much you love some sport or practice them - if you do not have the genetic advantage that others have in that area then it is very unlikely you will be able to excel to be the best in that particular field.

I highly doubt that Bolt is the fastest man on the planet because he worked harder than anyone else, was more dedicated and more determined... in fact after watching his documentary I know that is not the case.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 19:37]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 19:50 - Oct 22 with 951 viewsFlashberryjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 19:23 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

Again you seem to have nailed exactly what I was saying. Thanks once more.

I agree nutrition and other variables can affect such things as height, but as you say it is genetic and driven by evolution of regional specific conditions. Hence what I was saying that if you stick 15 German babies in China and feed them rice and vegetables - they still wont conform to the 5 foot 6 average. They may indeed be shorter than they would have been but their genetics will still make them relatively tall people.

This extends to the athletics debate. Evolution has made people of certain regions a certain way in order to best suit their environment. Be that height, bone strength, skin colour, muscle composition, use of fat, fat storage, chemical balances - literally anything. So those that descend from these areas will have certain genetic advantages over others and also disadvantages.

As I mentioned before, the main issue with this debate is it started as a broad discussion where race is entirely relevant and then morphed into a specific one in which regions were more accurate. But the bottom line of either is that it doesn't matter how much you love some sport or practice them - if you do not have the genetic advantage that others have in that area then it is very unlikely you will be able to excel to be the best in that particular field.

I highly doubt that Bolt is the fastest man on the planet because he worked harder than anyone else, was more dedicated and more determined... in fact after watching his documentary I know that is not the case.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 19:37]


So in conclusion football isn't institutionally racist........all about nutrition.

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 20:02 - Oct 22 with 943 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 19:50 - Oct 22 by Flashberryjack

So in conclusion football isn't institutionally racist........all about nutrition.


It depends on your take on the initial point before it was sidetracked - which was the complete lack of black senior figures and management in the top level of the game when playing % is so high. There are many reasons for that which could be discussed, generational racism may well be one. Our very own Claude Makalele's agent (also Iker Casillas') has said that Florentino Perez prefers white people over black people, and that is the most powerful decision maker at the biggest club in the world, so wouldn't be shocked if it did indeed filter down.

But its not about nutrition, no.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 20:24]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:07 - Oct 22 with 914 viewsFlashberryjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 20:02 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

It depends on your take on the initial point before it was sidetracked - which was the complete lack of black senior figures and management in the top level of the game when playing % is so high. There are many reasons for that which could be discussed, generational racism may well be one. Our very own Claude Makalele's agent (also Iker Casillas') has said that Florentino Perez prefers white people over black people, and that is the most powerful decision maker at the biggest club in the world, so wouldn't be shocked if it did indeed filter down.

But its not about nutrition, no.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 20:24]


If you're good enough.......you're good enough.

The ratio of black players to black managers, is probably because there are more good black footballers than there are black managers.

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:28 - Oct 22 with 902 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:07 - Oct 22 by Flashberryjack

If you're good enough.......you're good enough.

The ratio of black players to black managers, is probably because there are more good black footballers than there are black managers.


''If you're good enough, you're good enough'' is a fantastic strap-line, and of course what it should be. But reality is often very different from utopia.

I refuse to believe that black players transition worse to management than Caucasians, in fact it is quite a shocking statement. I can imagine there is a great deal of apathy with regards to going through the process of attaining the relevant licences.

As a Caucasian I can totally understand the feeling, and that's from the outside looking in.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 21:29]

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:39 - Oct 22 with 885 viewsFlashberryjack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:28 - Oct 22 by E20Jack

''If you're good enough, you're good enough'' is a fantastic strap-line, and of course what it should be. But reality is often very different from utopia.

I refuse to believe that black players transition worse to management than Caucasians, in fact it is quite a shocking statement. I can imagine there is a great deal of apathy with regards to going through the process of attaining the relevant licences.

As a Caucasian I can totally understand the feeling, and that's from the outside looking in.
[Post edited 22 Oct 2017 21:29]


What's your take on the lack of British managers in the Premiere League ?

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Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:50 - Oct 22 with 877 viewsE20Jack

Is football institutionally racist ? on 21:39 - Oct 22 by Flashberryjack

What's your take on the lack of British managers in the Premiere League ?


I think that is down to a lack of British transfers abroad. British lads playing in La Liga, France, Germany and Italy is not a common thing. It could be something to do with British people traditionally finding it hard to learn other languages. So when appointing a manager a broad knowledge of the game is often desirable - including European contacts, something foreign players/coaches tend to have.

7 of the 20 PL managers are British which considering the above - is pretty good going.

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