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The Countdown begins. 23:28 - Nov 10 with 289143 viewspikeypaul



https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20190329T23&p0=1336&msg=Democr

1:19 pm today was the exact mid point from when the result that the Great British public had decided to leave the EU and the time 11pm March 29th 2019 that Democracy will be delivered.

Happy days.
[Post edited 25 Jun 17:01]

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The Countdown begins. on 16:31 - Sep 23 with 863 viewsexiledclaseboy

The Countdown begins. on 16:25 - Sep 23 by Catullus

Maybe he said that because he knows the EU position on state funding/nationalisation and that Corbyn's grand plan is unlikely to be allowed should we remain? McCluskey wants us back where we were 40 years ago, where unions held the country to ransom.
I'm not saying there shouldn't be reform but maybe from the top down, worry about the bosses actions that are forcing strike action instead of people who feel forced into striking. Should any business be allowed to pay out massive dividends and not give a pay rise? There's another thread needed for this I think!!


What’s the issue with nationalisation? Quite a few EU countries have nationalised railways, for example.

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The Countdown begins. on 17:13 - Sep 23 with 844 viewsDJack

The Countdown begins. on 11:34 - Sep 23 by Jango

You’re assuming Corbyn has the intention of having the choice remain on the vote.


What part of hypothetical question did you not understand?

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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The Countdown begins. on 17:36 - Sep 23 with 824 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 17:13 - Sep 23 by DJack

What part of hypothetical question did you not understand?


Well Pegojack who asked the question agreed with me that he’s assuming exactly what I said he was, hypothetical or not. Understand???
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The Countdown begins. on 18:21 - Sep 23 with 805 viewsjohnlangy

The Countdown begins. on 10:00 - Sep 23 by Jango

Some differences were substantial. At one end of the scale, London showed a surplus of just over £3,000 per person – the difference between revenues of £15,756 per head and spending of £12,686. Northern Ireland had the biggest deficit – about £5,400 per person – and Wales was next at £4,500.


Wales' net benefit from the EU budget estimated at around £79 per head. A new report released today (Tuesday 24 May 2016) shows that Wales receives £245 million more from the European Union than it pays in. The overall net benefit to Wales was around £79 per head in 2014.
[Post edited 23 Sep 10:01]


Those figures appear to come from a report, presumably covering the whole of the UK. I remember reading a couple of years ago about Welsh Expenditure being £38 billion while Welsh Revenue (taxes) were £24 billion (£14 billion deficit). Your numbers, £4,500 per head, when multiplied by 3 million comes to £13.5 billion so we're talking about the same thing.

But those figures are so innacurate as to be meaningless. I don't understand why people still quote these figures when they've been disproved so many times. The revenue figure does not include billions of Welsh VAT/CORP tax and the expenditure figure which, when people are asked what they believe it means their answer is that it is money spent in Wales. The Welsh Expenditure figure includes billions that are not spent in Wales.

There was no £billion of Welsh Expenditure to spend on the Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon but there WAS a £billion of Welsh Expenditure to spend on Crossrail for London. There is also £3 billion of Welsh Expenditure being spent currently on HS2. Another £1.5 billion of Welsh Expenditure will be spent on both Crossrail 2 for London and Heathrow expansion when it happens.

The real Welsh deficit is a fraction of the £14 billion figure and, even though there is almost certainly a substantial REAL deficit almost every country in the World runs with a large fiscal deficit.

Promoting these figures gives the impression that the Welsh economy is a basket case. It isn't.
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The Countdown begins. on 19:07 - Sep 23 with 779 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 18:21 - Sep 23 by johnlangy

Those figures appear to come from a report, presumably covering the whole of the UK. I remember reading a couple of years ago about Welsh Expenditure being £38 billion while Welsh Revenue (taxes) were £24 billion (£14 billion deficit). Your numbers, £4,500 per head, when multiplied by 3 million comes to £13.5 billion so we're talking about the same thing.

But those figures are so innacurate as to be meaningless. I don't understand why people still quote these figures when they've been disproved so many times. The revenue figure does not include billions of Welsh VAT/CORP tax and the expenditure figure which, when people are asked what they believe it means their answer is that it is money spent in Wales. The Welsh Expenditure figure includes billions that are not spent in Wales.

There was no £billion of Welsh Expenditure to spend on the Swansea Bay Tidal Lagoon but there WAS a £billion of Welsh Expenditure to spend on Crossrail for London. There is also £3 billion of Welsh Expenditure being spent currently on HS2. Another £1.5 billion of Welsh Expenditure will be spent on both Crossrail 2 for London and Heathrow expansion when it happens.

The real Welsh deficit is a fraction of the £14 billion figure and, even though there is almost certainly a substantial REAL deficit almost every country in the World runs with a large fiscal deficit.

Promoting these figures gives the impression that the Welsh economy is a basket case. It isn't.


This is HMRC's tax roundup for the UK split into the four nations (2016/17) and Westminster gives the WAG 15 billion.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac

Out of Welsh taxes raised you have to remove our share of things like defence spending, foreign aid, debt rep[ayments and EU contributions.

Now I'm not an expert, just a gullible voter, but are you saying the WAG spends money in England or that the UK government takes money from the Welsh budget and spends it in England?
If Wales runs at a loss, it's not lying to say the English subsidise us.

What puzzlees me most is, how can so many countries run at a loss? Who owns that debt? The more you look at the worlds finances (global debt was given recently as 300% of GDP) the more it looks like we need to do away with money and find another system. Money is nothing but trouble!

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 20:56 - Sep 23 with 752 viewsDJack

The Countdown begins. on 17:36 - Sep 23 by Jango

Well Pegojack who asked the question agreed with me that he’s assuming exactly what I said he was, hypothetical or not. Understand???


What you stated was implicit in how he laid the question out. FFS

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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The Countdown begins. on 21:08 - Sep 23 with 747 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 20:56 - Sep 23 by DJack

What you stated was implicit in how he laid the question out. FFS


Mate I honestly couldn’t give a f*ck. he didn’t take issue so let it go you boring man.
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The Countdown begins. on 21:16 - Sep 23 with 743 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 16:31 - Sep 23 by exiledclaseboy

What’s the issue with nationalisation? Quite a few EU countries have nationalised railways, for example.


Taking the source into account, if it's correct then it's obvious that remaining poses a barrier to renationalisation.

https://brexitcentral.com/labour-unable-nationalise-rail-new-eu-rules/

Then there's this which is 3 years old but still relevant,

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/renationalise-railways-what-no-one

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 21:23 - Sep 23 with 739 viewsexiledclaseboy

The Countdown begins. on 21:16 - Sep 23 by Catullus

Taking the source into account, if it's correct then it's obvious that remaining poses a barrier to renationalisation.

https://brexitcentral.com/labour-unable-nationalise-rail-new-eu-rules/

Then there's this which is 3 years old but still relevant,

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/08/renationalise-railways-what-no-one


So an article by ardent EU hater Hoey and Brexit Central.

Okey dokey.

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The Countdown begins. on 21:33 - Sep 23 with 737 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 21:23 - Sep 23 by exiledclaseboy

So an article by ardent EU hater Hoey and Brexit Central.

Okey dokey.


I'm actually not blaming the EU for this, it's more a case of previous UK governments interpretation and determination to follow that interptretation.
The EU rules on railways are to prevent a monopoly, the UK over exerts those rules partly because our politicians are stupid and partly because it helps the rich friends of rich MP's, civil servants etc.
We do things in this country that are attributed to the EU but it's been a case of our government using the EU as an excuse to shaft us.
If Corbyn becomes PM (and I don't think he will but who knows) and he tries to renationalise he'll get more opposition from UK politicians than the EU.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 21:39 - Sep 23 with 734 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 21:33 - Sep 23 by Catullus

I'm actually not blaming the EU for this, it's more a case of previous UK governments interpretation and determination to follow that interptretation.
The EU rules on railways are to prevent a monopoly, the UK over exerts those rules partly because our politicians are stupid and partly because it helps the rich friends of rich MP's, civil servants etc.
We do things in this country that are attributed to the EU but it's been a case of our government using the EU as an excuse to shaft us.
If Corbyn becomes PM (and I don't think he will but who knows) and he tries to renationalise he'll get more opposition from UK politicians than the EU.


There's always this,

https://theconversation.com/fact-check-do-new-eu-rules-make-it-impossible-to-ren

Here's a thought, if we do actually Brexit the EU and the Tories stay in power, there won't be the EU to blame for privatisation or not renationalising. Given the state of the railways, I wonder what the Tories would do?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 21:50 - Sep 23 with 724 viewsDJack

The Countdown begins. on 21:08 - Sep 23 by Jango

Mate I honestly couldn’t give a f*ck. he didn’t take issue so let it go you boring man.


Cos he's polite but like you I'm not, you fckwit.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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The Countdown begins. on 22:42 - Sep 23 with 697 viewsLeonWasGod

The Countdown begins. on 21:33 - Sep 23 by Catullus

I'm actually not blaming the EU for this, it's more a case of previous UK governments interpretation and determination to follow that interptretation.
The EU rules on railways are to prevent a monopoly, the UK over exerts those rules partly because our politicians are stupid and partly because it helps the rich friends of rich MP's, civil servants etc.
We do things in this country that are attributed to the EU but it's been a case of our government using the EU as an excuse to shaft us.
If Corbyn becomes PM (and I don't think he will but who knows) and he tries to renationalise he'll get more opposition from UK politicians than the EU.


Great post. I suspect that’s how it could play out based on my experiences with research funding. If the UK (or especially Welsh) governments are involved, we over-interpret and belt and brace any EU guidelines, introducing all sorts of delays and hoops to jump through. It’s typically clearer and less bureaucratic dealing directly with the EU. Yet the EU is always blamed for our disorganisation and bureaucracy. I can easily see the parallels to the public/private debate. Of course we can have public run services IF we wanted them.
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The Countdown begins. on 11:16 - Sep 24 with 620 viewspikeypaul

Start of another beautiful week closer to kicking the EU into touch.

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The Countdown begins. on 11:26 - Sep 24 with 615 viewsHighjack

After two years and marathon policy making sessions throughout the nights to meticulously craft the wording to deliver to their members at conference, labour finally have an official Brexit policy which is to sit on the fence and keep every option open.

Thank God for that.

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The Countdown begins. on 12:20 - Sep 24 with 588 viewsShaky

Twitter reporting that Labour have agreed policy to tithe 10% of UK listed shares to the workers.

No increasing tax rates to sensible levels for new old Labour, nothing less than simply announcing the most business unfriendly policy I have ever heard of will do for them.

Better load up the car now!

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The Countdown begins. on 12:23 - Sep 24 with 584 viewsPegojack

The Countdown begins. on 11:16 - Sep 24 by pikeypaul

Start of another beautiful week closer to kicking the EU into touch.

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Come on PP, stop dodging my question.
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The Countdown begins. on 12:49 - Sep 24 with 572 viewsShaky

Just listened to McDonnell's speech, and while I agree with much of what he is saying i have no doubt his language and specific policies are politically toxic.

Labour have a golden opportunity to take advantage of the Conservative paty's disarray, but I am certain they have blown it.

What a fcuking shambles.

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The Countdown begins. on 14:42 - Sep 24 with 522 viewsjohnlangy

The Countdown begins. on 19:07 - Sep 23 by Catullus

This is HMRC's tax roundup for the UK split into the four nations (2016/17) and Westminster gives the WAG 15 billion.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac

Out of Welsh taxes raised you have to remove our share of things like defence spending, foreign aid, debt rep[ayments and EU contributions.

Now I'm not an expert, just a gullible voter, but are you saying the WAG spends money in England or that the UK government takes money from the Welsh budget and spends it in England?
If Wales runs at a loss, it's not lying to say the English subsidise us.

What puzzlees me most is, how can so many countries run at a loss? Who owns that debt? The more you look at the worlds finances (global debt was given recently as 300% of GDP) the more it looks like we need to do away with money and find another system. Money is nothing but trouble!


Welsh tax revenue is substantially more than the £24 billion quoted (or whatever the current figure is). As an example of Welsh taxes not included, Tesco registers ALL its UK VAT and Corporation Tax paid at its Cheshunt HQ in Hertfordshire. They're not doing anything wrong. It's just easier for accounting purposes.

But the fact is that Welsh people spend around £3 billion in Tesco stores. It's not all VAT chargeable but the VAT paid on what would be chargeable is still a huge amount. Corp tax would also be a huge amount. The vast majority of large companies have their HQ's in and around London and do the same. There may be some exceptions. I don't know. A large number of those companies will have a Welsh presence and will register tax in a similar way. It's very easy to imagine the total reaching billions. A different example is Road Tax. The DVLA is about a quarter of a mile away from where I live but my road tax isn't classed as Welsh tax. It's registered, as far as I understand it, in the DOT in London.

The WAG budget of £15 billion is calculated using the Barnett Formula (please don't ask me how it works). So they get a £15 billion budget to cover their areas of responsibility -health, education etc. The remaining Welsh taxes are then used to cover the areas of responsibility covered by Westminster - defence, foreign aid etc as you mention. That figure may be another £15 billion if the REAL total of Welsh taxes is £30 billion, for example.

Welsh expenditure. The WAG doesn't spend money in England and the UK Government don't take money out of the Welsh budget (by that I mean the £15 billion WAG budget).

In my previous post I mentioned Crossrail, HS2, Crossrail 2 and Heathrow expansion. If the Westminster Government decides to go ahead with an infrastructure project and denotes that project as being a UK project ie they say it benefits the WHOLE of the UK, then a proportion of the cost is allocated to every nation/region of the UK according to population. Wales' population is 5% of the UK pop hence £1 billion of the Crossrail budget was classed as Welsh expenditure.

To be blunt I haven't got a clue how many of those projects are ongoing as we speak (Crossrail and HS2 are) but each and every one of them, by their nature huge projects, will have billion/s registered as Welsh Expenditure.

And almost every single one of those projects happen in England. Crossrail and HS2 plus all the others provide London, already the richest region of the entire EU, with a huge financial boost. And how much of a boost do you think they provide to Wales, currently the poorest Nation is North Western Europe ? The answer is virtually none while, according to how the Government manipulate the books, billions is added to so called Welsh Expenditure.

This is not a Wales v England rant. The same logic re taxes and expenditure apply not only to Scotland and NI but also to the English regions. The West Country is in a similar position to Wales geographically and would also carry their share of the cost of HS2. And their Tesco taxes will also be registered in Cheshunt.

'If Wales runs at a loss, it's not lying to say the English subsidise us.' Wrong. The UK runs at a loss. The current UK deficit is £50 billion I believe. Englands share of that may be about £40 billion. Who subsidises England ?

I don't know how the World money markets work sorry. But there are only a few countries that run a fiscal surplus, Qatar for example.
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The Countdown begins. on 18:29 - Sep 24 with 460 viewslonglostjack

The Countdown begins. on 21:33 - Sep 23 by Catullus

I'm actually not blaming the EU for this, it's more a case of previous UK governments interpretation and determination to follow that interptretation.
The EU rules on railways are to prevent a monopoly, the UK over exerts those rules partly because our politicians are stupid and partly because it helps the rich friends of rich MP's, civil servants etc.
We do things in this country that are attributed to the EU but it's been a case of our government using the EU as an excuse to shaft us.
If Corbyn becomes PM (and I don't think he will but who knows) and he tries to renationalise he'll get more opposition from UK politicians than the EU.


Correct. The recent EU trade agreement with Japan excludes utilities such as water for example. Hamburg has also taken back the local electricity distribution grid into municipal control and out of the hands of private operators. Ignorance of the EU is clearly not a uniquely Tory problem.

http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/buying-back-their-infrastructure-small

[Post edited 24 Sep 18:39]

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The Countdown begins. on 18:39 - Sep 24 with 446 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 14:42 - Sep 24 by johnlangy

Welsh tax revenue is substantially more than the £24 billion quoted (or whatever the current figure is). As an example of Welsh taxes not included, Tesco registers ALL its UK VAT and Corporation Tax paid at its Cheshunt HQ in Hertfordshire. They're not doing anything wrong. It's just easier for accounting purposes.

But the fact is that Welsh people spend around £3 billion in Tesco stores. It's not all VAT chargeable but the VAT paid on what would be chargeable is still a huge amount. Corp tax would also be a huge amount. The vast majority of large companies have their HQ's in and around London and do the same. There may be some exceptions. I don't know. A large number of those companies will have a Welsh presence and will register tax in a similar way. It's very easy to imagine the total reaching billions. A different example is Road Tax. The DVLA is about a quarter of a mile away from where I live but my road tax isn't classed as Welsh tax. It's registered, as far as I understand it, in the DOT in London.

The WAG budget of £15 billion is calculated using the Barnett Formula (please don't ask me how it works). So they get a £15 billion budget to cover their areas of responsibility -health, education etc. The remaining Welsh taxes are then used to cover the areas of responsibility covered by Westminster - defence, foreign aid etc as you mention. That figure may be another £15 billion if the REAL total of Welsh taxes is £30 billion, for example.

Welsh expenditure. The WAG doesn't spend money in England and the UK Government don't take money out of the Welsh budget (by that I mean the £15 billion WAG budget).

In my previous post I mentioned Crossrail, HS2, Crossrail 2 and Heathrow expansion. If the Westminster Government decides to go ahead with an infrastructure project and denotes that project as being a UK project ie they say it benefits the WHOLE of the UK, then a proportion of the cost is allocated to every nation/region of the UK according to population. Wales' population is 5% of the UK pop hence £1 billion of the Crossrail budget was classed as Welsh expenditure.

To be blunt I haven't got a clue how many of those projects are ongoing as we speak (Crossrail and HS2 are) but each and every one of them, by their nature huge projects, will have billion/s registered as Welsh Expenditure.

And almost every single one of those projects happen in England. Crossrail and HS2 plus all the others provide London, already the richest region of the entire EU, with a huge financial boost. And how much of a boost do you think they provide to Wales, currently the poorest Nation is North Western Europe ? The answer is virtually none while, according to how the Government manipulate the books, billions is added to so called Welsh Expenditure.

This is not a Wales v England rant. The same logic re taxes and expenditure apply not only to Scotland and NI but also to the English regions. The West Country is in a similar position to Wales geographically and would also carry their share of the cost of HS2. And their Tesco taxes will also be registered in Cheshunt.

'If Wales runs at a loss, it's not lying to say the English subsidise us.' Wrong. The UK runs at a loss. The current UK deficit is £50 billion I believe. Englands share of that may be about £40 billion. Who subsidises England ?

I don't know how the World money markets work sorry. But there are only a few countries that run a fiscal surplus, Qatar for example.


Who subsidises England....well looking at the figures the SE and London do and anything over that we borrow and all of us end up paying for it.

What you say about taxes is true, the biggest problem is companies like Amazon and Google who take profit from this country and pay tax on it in places like Luxembourg. Then there's the privatised utilities which should be national assets, billions is lost to dividends and profits going to foreign companies who take it out of this country.
It's a proper conundrum. At heart I'm a socialist but it hasn't worked and capitalism only works for the rich.

As for the global finance picture, I'm sure the few countries running profitably aren't lending all of the rest of the world money. Most of the borrowed money is probably electronically created (like when the UK indulged in Quantitative easing) and the guarantors are probably old moneyed families like the Rothschilds.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 07:17 - Sep 25 with 360 viewspikeypaul

Not long now lads to the great day.

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[Post edited 25 Sep 7:21]

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The Countdown begins. on 08:14 - Sep 25 with 340 viewsWarwickHunt



https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/24/hard-brexiters-new-plan-gets-a-
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The Countdown begins. on 09:22 - Sep 25 with 319 viewsShaky

Epic own of Brexiter dunce MP.

See thread:


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The Countdown begins. on 09:42 - Sep 25 with 310 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 18:29 - Sep 24 by longlostjack

Correct. The recent EU trade agreement with Japan excludes utilities such as water for example. Hamburg has also taken back the local electricity distribution grid into municipal control and out of the hands of private operators. Ignorance of the EU is clearly not a uniquely Tory problem.

http://m.spiegel.de/international/germany/buying-back-their-infrastructure-small

[Post edited 24 Sep 18:39]


What? Someone else agrees with me!!

To my mind our politicians have been behaving dreadfully and using the EU as a scapegoat....yet I still voted leave, sounds wrong eh. Thing is I honestly believe the EU will collapse before Westminster or any European nation state. History tells us such empire building always fails. If it was just a trade bloc, it was all about free trade and not about political and financial integration, I would choose remain. The EU has a federal ideology that Europe will never compleyely buy into. It's not just immigration that's driving people into right wing groups, it's their nationalism too.
We are taught to be proud of our country, proud of our heritage. It's pushed in schools all over the world. It's so ingrained in us that it's hardly likely to be given up easily. The EU pushing towqrds further integration is causing racism and xenophobia and the rising crime stats across Europe are just adding fuel to the fire.
We are better off not being in the EU when it finally explodes/implodes/collapses....take your pick.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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