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The Countdown begins. 23:28 - Nov 10 with 346313 viewspikeypaul



https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20190329T23&p0=1336&msg=Democr

1:19 pm today was the exact mid point from when the result that the Great British public had decided to leave the EU and the time 11pm March 29th 2019 that Democracy will be delivered.

Happy days.
[Post edited 25 Jun 17:01]

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Poll: Next major war involving UK against a super power ?

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The Countdown begins. on 19:02 - Oct 25 with 654 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 18:42 - Oct 25 by longlostjack

He ended up in Maindiff Court for a while Shaky. No evidence to suggest that it was sanctioned by Mr. H. Might have been a deniable operation of course. Was it really Hess who was banged up in Spandau? Maybe a Hess thread is needed. Pikey would like to get it back to Brexit I’m sure.


Feel free, mein herr.

But the bone of contention in the present discussion was about the Nazi perception of Russians versus Brits.

The simple fact is that the Russians were considered untermenschen whereas the Brits were not, and for those inclined towards totalitarianism any agreements struck with sub-humans will always be considered non-binding.

Misology -- It's a bitch
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The Countdown begins. on 22:02 - Oct 25 with 603 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 18:23 - Oct 25 by Shaky

Hess was deputy fuhrer and had significant powers through his own office.

He was fully aware of the plans to attack Russia, which is why he made the trip to Britain beforehand to seek peace, rightly fearing Germany could not win a war on 2 fronts.

Which is where I believe this discussion started.


Hess made the trip apparently thinking there was support in Britain for a peace on Nazi terms, turned out he was wrong and the person he came to see wasn't a fifth columnist nor even a sympathiser.
As for there being support for Germany amongst the aristo's, yes there was but not enough to make any difference. It was worries about being considered German that led to our monarchy changing their name to Windsor, they could hardly remain as Saxe, Coburg and Gotha without there being problems.
Hess being arrested without being given any political credence showed that whatever else, we wouldn't bow to Hitler and it gives no credence to claims Hitler would never have invaded us.
Besides which, as I pointed out, when we gave our word to Poland Hitler would have known that to invade would have meant being at war with us. If he was going to try and avoid war with us, he would have offered Chamberlain a different deal. We'll never know how that might have worked out but once the Panzers started rolling, war with Britain was inevitable.

What most people don't know/remember is that Russia also invaded Poland with Germany, carving up Eastern Europe was part of their non aggression pact/Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 06:39 - Oct 26 with 541 viewspikeypaul

22 weeks and fecking loving it.

SIUYRL

Another week closer to the great day.

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Poll: Next major war involving UK against a super power ?

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The Countdown begins. on 09:38 - Oct 26 with 518 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 19:02 - Oct 25 by Shaky

Feel free, mein herr.

But the bone of contention in the present discussion was about the Nazi perception of Russians versus Brits.

The simple fact is that the Russians were considered untermenschen whereas the Brits were not, and for those inclined towards totalitarianism any agreements struck with sub-humans will always be considered non-binding.


Oh no it wasn't. It was about whether we should have gone to war in 39 and did Hitler intend to invade Britain.

But it's all off topic and time to stop now.

It seems a no deal scenario is back on the table. Just as Tony Abbott comes out saying we should take no deal because we'd thrive on WTO rules just like Australia does.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 10:01 - Oct 26 with 509 viewsBatterseajack

The Countdown begins. on 09:38 - Oct 26 by Catullus

Oh no it wasn't. It was about whether we should have gone to war in 39 and did Hitler intend to invade Britain.

But it's all off topic and time to stop now.

It seems a no deal scenario is back on the table. Just as Tony Abbott comes out saying we should take no deal because we'd thrive on WTO rules just like Australia does.


The WTO option has just got more complicated now Russia have formally objected our proposed tariff rate quotas.

We're heading for a deal in my opinion, based on the UK becoming a rule taker. A no deal would trigger a second referendum.
[Post edited 26 Oct 10:02]
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The Countdown begins. on 10:22 - Oct 26 with 495 viewspikeypaul

Dream on .

There you go again stating your guesses and wishes as if they are facts.

By the way if there were a 2nd referendum would you accept the democratic result whichever way it went or would you continue stamping your feet line a little spoilt child if you could not have your way?

154 AFLI

SIUYRL

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Poll: Next major war involving UK against a super power ?

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The Countdown begins. on 11:12 - Oct 26 with 478 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 22:02 - Oct 25 by Catullus

Hess made the trip apparently thinking there was support in Britain for a peace on Nazi terms, turned out he was wrong and the person he came to see wasn't a fifth columnist nor even a sympathiser.
As for there being support for Germany amongst the aristo's, yes there was but not enough to make any difference. It was worries about being considered German that led to our monarchy changing their name to Windsor, they could hardly remain as Saxe, Coburg and Gotha without there being problems.
Hess being arrested without being given any political credence showed that whatever else, we wouldn't bow to Hitler and it gives no credence to claims Hitler would never have invaded us.
Besides which, as I pointed out, when we gave our word to Poland Hitler would have known that to invade would have meant being at war with us. If he was going to try and avoid war with us, he would have offered Chamberlain a different deal. We'll never know how that might have worked out but once the Panzers started rolling, war with Britain was inevitable.

What most people don't know/remember is that Russia also invaded Poland with Germany, carving up Eastern Europe was part of their non aggression pact/Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.


Some of that's right and some of it wrong, but the common factor is it has nothing to do with the original point.

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The Countdown begins. on 11:22 - Oct 26 with 473 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 10:22 - Oct 26 by pikeypaul

Dream on .

There you go again stating your guesses and wishes as if they are facts.

By the way if there were a 2nd referendum would you accept the democratic result whichever way it went or would you continue stamping your feet line a little spoilt child if you could not have your way?

154 AFLI

SIUYRL


You're fired, Pike:


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The Countdown begins. on 12:58 - Oct 26 with 456 viewsBatterseajack

The Countdown begins. on 10:22 - Oct 26 by pikeypaul

Dream on .

There you go again stating your guesses and wishes as if they are facts.

By the way if there were a 2nd referendum would you accept the democratic result whichever way it went or would you continue stamping your feet line a little spoilt child if you could not have your way?

154 AFLI

SIUYRL


Not my fault you can’t read. When opening a sentence with “in my opinion” how is that then stating my opinion as a fact?
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The Countdown begins. on 14:08 - Oct 26 with 431 viewsBatterseajack

Guess we should have another referendum to leave the WTO.

Surely the very competent Liam Fox would have seen this coming right?

[Post edited 26 Oct 14:11]
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The Countdown begins. on 14:13 - Oct 26 with 426 viewsoh_tommy_tommy

If it wasn’t so important it would be hysterical

What an absolute sh!t pot

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The Countdown begins. on 14:34 - Oct 26 with 416 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 11:12 - Oct 26 by Shaky

Some of that's right and some of it wrong, but the common factor is it has nothing to do with the original point.


Peene's original point was we should never have gone to war as Hitler would never have invaded.

Back on topic, if a deal is to be accepted here it has to get through parliament (or the people be given the final say) but if Labour vote it down whatever it is, then the sh/tstorm becomes a megash/tstorm.
It's time to put party politics aside and do what's best, there should be no whips for the vote on the deal, it should be a free and open vote.
I honestly think those old chancers (Corbyn and MaccyD) will use this to try again to force a general election.

McDonnell's spending plans, all that extra borrowing, according to something I read earlier it would cost this country an extra 11 billion a year in interest alone, could anyone vote them in? That's before thinking about the raise in taxes that would surely happen, McDonnell refused 5 times to answer the question (will taxes rise) and why would that be John?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 15:57 - Oct 26 with 398 viewsLegend83

Boeing opens it's first ever European production facility in....Sheffield! £40m investment and over 50 skilled jobs.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/boeing-sheffield-new-factory-ma
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The Countdown begins. on 16:20 - Oct 26 with 391 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 14:08 - Oct 26 by Batterseajack

Guess we should have another referendum to leave the WTO.

Surely the very competent Liam Fox would have seen this coming right?

[Post edited 26 Oct 14:11]


“This was expected and does not impact our ability to trade independently,” a spokesman for the U.K.’s department of trade said in an emailed statement. “The terms we have set out will form the basis of our trade policy while we engage with our WTO partners to address their concerns”

Answer your question? You would have read that though obviously.
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The Countdown begins. on 16:33 - Oct 26 with 383 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 16:20 - Oct 26 by Jango

“This was expected and does not impact our ability to trade independently,” a spokesman for the U.K.’s department of trade said in an emailed statement. “The terms we have set out will form the basis of our trade policy while we engage with our WTO partners to address their concerns”

Answer your question? You would have read that though obviously.


I read that we trade under pre-existing agreements whilst new ones are negotiated. Fox may have hoped no one would object but given our recent history with Russia I reckon plenty of people knew they'd put a spanner in.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 17:50 - Oct 26 with 366 viewsKilkennyjack

The Countdown begins. on 11:22 - Oct 26 by Shaky

You're fired, Pike:



Well said Lord Sugar.

Lock them up ! 👏👏👏👏👏

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The Countdown begins. on 18:11 - Oct 26 with 350 viewsunion_jack

The Countdown begins. on 10:22 - Oct 26 by pikeypaul

Dream on .

There you go again stating your guesses and wishes as if they are facts.

By the way if there were a 2nd referendum would you accept the democratic result whichever way it went or would you continue stamping your feet line a little spoilt child if you could not have your way?

154 AFLI

SIUYRL


Though not directed at me, I'll answer that question. I would accept the result of a second referendum, no question. Now we are armed with the facts then so be it.

In fact, for me it would take it out if my hands so to speak. I wax and wane daily so let's get it on and live with it. Whatever 'it' is.

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The Countdown begins. on 20:38 - Oct 26 with 316 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 14:08 - Oct 26 by Batterseajack

Guess we should have another referendum to leave the WTO.

Surely the very competent Liam Fox would have seen this coming right?

[Post edited 26 Oct 14:11]


Now even the moron Brexiter's stock answer for everything "we'll just go to WTO rules" has been shown to be pure fantasy.

Who could have known that splintering off from the world's largest most wealthy trading block would lead international competitors to try to turn that to their advantage?

Only everyone with half a brain and a modicum of integrity, which instantly rules out Boris, JRM, Gove, Farage and the rest of those slimy shits.

What a fcuking joke.

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The Countdown begins. on 09:56 - Oct 27 with 241 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 20:38 - Oct 26 by Shaky

Now even the moron Brexiter's stock answer for everything "we'll just go to WTO rules" has been shown to be pure fantasy.

Who could have known that splintering off from the world's largest most wealthy trading block would lead international competitors to try to turn that to their advantage?

Only everyone with half a brain and a modicum of integrity, which instantly rules out Boris, JRM, Gove, Farage and the rest of those slimy shits.

What a fcuking joke.


It's not like we'll be stopped from trading with anyone

“This was expected and does not impact our ability to trade independently,” a spokesman for the U.K.’s department of trade said in an emailed statement. “The terms we have set out will form the basis of our trade policy while we engage with our WTO partners to address their concerns.”

Then there's the small fact that the EU is technically the wealthiest trading bloc yet not the wealthiest when compared to other individual countries, its per capita GDP is third behind the USA and Japan. it's total GDP being second to China.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/few-see-eu-as-worlds-top-economi

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 10:09 - Oct 27 with 238 viewsBatterseajack

The Countdown begins. on 09:56 - Oct 27 by Catullus

It's not like we'll be stopped from trading with anyone

“This was expected and does not impact our ability to trade independently,” a spokesman for the U.K.’s department of trade said in an emailed statement. “The terms we have set out will form the basis of our trade policy while we engage with our WTO partners to address their concerns.”

Then there's the small fact that the EU is technically the wealthiest trading bloc yet not the wealthiest when compared to other individual countries, its per capita GDP is third behind the USA and Japan. it's total GDP being second to China.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/few-see-eu-as-worlds-top-economi


Got your brexit blinkers on again. So with a bit of spin, a hostile Russia is now our WTO partner yeah? If this doesn’t affect us, why do we need to go about addressing their concerns?

WTO isn’t as stringent as EU membership, but it’s by no means as straight forward as going just going no deal in April next year and expect the world to be happy with us using our existing EU based WTO quotas. Even our allies will oppose that.
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The Countdown begins. on 10:31 - Oct 27 with 230 viewsKilkennyjack

The Countdown begins. on 20:38 - Oct 26 by Shaky

Now even the moron Brexiter's stock answer for everything "we'll just go to WTO rules" has been shown to be pure fantasy.

Who could have known that splintering off from the world's largest most wealthy trading block would lead international competitors to try to turn that to their advantage?

Only everyone with half a brain and a modicum of integrity, which instantly rules out Boris, JRM, Gove, Farage and the rest of those slimy shits.

What a fcuking joke.


Best post of the entire thread.

We are so fecked.

Lock them up !! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 YesCymru 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

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The Countdown begins. on 11:20 - Oct 27 with 221 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 09:56 - Oct 27 by Catullus

It's not like we'll be stopped from trading with anyone

“This was expected and does not impact our ability to trade independently,” a spokesman for the U.K.’s department of trade said in an emailed statement. “The terms we have set out will form the basis of our trade policy while we engage with our WTO partners to address their concerns.”

Then there's the small fact that the EU is technically the wealthiest trading bloc yet not the wealthiest when compared to other individual countries, its per capita GDP is third behind the USA and Japan. it's total GDP being second to China.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/08/09/few-see-eu-as-worlds-top-economi


As Disraeli noted, there are lies, dammed lies, and statistics.

The US does indeed have larger per capita GDP than the EU, but the operative word is "average".

Unfortunately for the majority of Americans that statistic is meaningless, suffering as it does from the worst income inequality since the 1920s, which as any serious economist will tell you is one of the most important reasons for the depression starting in the early 1930s.

See for example:

Fed survey shows 40 percent of adults still can't cover a $400 emergency expense

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/22/fed-survey-40-percent-of-adults-cant-cover-400-e

Happily the governing political social consensus in most of Western Europe hasn't forgotten the lessons of the Great Depression, so there is far less income inequality.

That means purchasing power is spread broadly throughout the economy, making the EU a much more attractive market for goods and services.

But unhappily for us, the recollection of the causes of the Great Depression have been successfully dimmed by buying off politicians here, so we also enjoy staggering levels of inequality making the UK economy - in Western European terms - uniquely susceptible to an economic downturn.

Isn't life grand?

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The Countdown begins. on 11:23 - Oct 27 with 218 viewsShaky

. . .Oh and Japan is tiny in comparison to the EU.

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The Countdown begins. on 11:31 - Oct 27 with 215 viewsJack_Meoff

The Countdown begins. on 14:34 - Oct 26 by Catullus

Peene's original point was we should never have gone to war as Hitler would never have invaded.

Back on topic, if a deal is to be accepted here it has to get through parliament (or the people be given the final say) but if Labour vote it down whatever it is, then the sh/tstorm becomes a megash/tstorm.
It's time to put party politics aside and do what's best, there should be no whips for the vote on the deal, it should be a free and open vote.
I honestly think those old chancers (Corbyn and MaccyD) will use this to try again to force a general election.

McDonnell's spending plans, all that extra borrowing, according to something I read earlier it would cost this country an extra 11 billion a year in interest alone, could anyone vote them in? That's before thinking about the raise in taxes that would surely happen, McDonnell refused 5 times to answer the question (will taxes rise) and why would that be John?


The powers that be are sh*tting it that someone gets in that would actually benefit the populace rather than the racketeering filth that have governed for decades and longer. Shareholders of, for example, Lockheed Martin and BAE would be devastated. The UK is nothing but a racket, a legal mafia if you will. Democracy my arse. We'll put up with any old sh*t as long as we can have a pantomime (election) every four/five years. Oh yes we will.

And regard Hitler, it may be an idea to compare Germany in the 1930s to the UK today. Particularly given the context of the Treaty of Versailles in 1919. Man of the year on the cover of Time magazine in 1938 lest we forget. Then let's have a conversation about 'freedom.' It would appear the wars were 'won' for the furtherance of the machinations of finance, and nothing besides. Look at the state of the place in 2018 FFS.

Governed by filth, for the benefit of filth. Traitors, pure and simple.

*Sorry Catallus, this wasn't all aimed at you, the rant just got longer and longer...!

'My Rose has left me, I'm in a mood. She went to Kenya with the bloke from Allied Carpets...'

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The Countdown begins. on 12:46 - Oct 27 with 193 viewsShaky

Why I remain a Remainer
By Simon Kuper

FT, October 25, 2018

We Britons who remain Remainers 28 months after the referendum are used to being called unpatriotic, undemocratic, boring, out-of-touch, elitist bad losers. The home secretary Sajid Javid labels us “deeply unhelpful”. We are urged to get behind the project and are blamed (along with the “EUSSR”, Ireland and supposed master-puppeteer George Soros) for Brexit’s difficulties. When I criticised Brexit in a talk to Conservatives recently, very polite Leavers exhorted me afterwards: “Be positive! If we believe, we can do it.”

But like the 700,000 who marched in London last Saturday for a second referendum, I feel it’s a patriotic duty to keep fighting Brexit.

Brexit was always in part a vehicle to punish Remainer-types for our arrogance and cosmopolitanism, not simply an end in itself. Still, after Brexiters won the referendum, they should have stopped worrying about us. They had had 25 years to fine-tune a plan. There has been a Brexiter government since July 2016. We Remainers don’t control a major party. I can’t see how our disenfranchised whining shaped two years of negotiations. In any case, pluralistic democracies shouldn’t aspire to speak with one voice. Disagreement prevents groupthink.

If Brexiters had come out with a proper plan, they would have soon peeled off most Remainers or bored us into irrelevance. That’s what happened to once vocal opponents of recent British policies like the minimum wage, independence of the Bank of England and gay marriage. Alternatively, if Brexiters had gone for a soft Brexit — staying in most of the EU’s structures — the majority of Remainers would have gradually melted away. A hardcore of incorrigible sulks could then have been ignored while history marched on.

But I haven’t heard a convincing argument for Brexit since the referendum. Instead Brexit has rolled noisily into a ditch, then tumbled over. Squabbling government factions now risk Britain crashing out without a deal, and messing up people’s lives. I live in France, so my petty problems are shared with a mere 1.3 million Britons in the EU: I may require a residence permit to stay in my own home; I could lose access to healthcare. Anyone reliant on insulin imported from Europe, or working for a carmaker, or driving goods to Europe, or applying for an EU grant, or being looked after by a Lithuanian carer will have other worries.

I know the vision for Brexit was about loftier matters. As a well-off friend told me after the referendum: “You seem unduly concerned about short-term financial impacts. This is a victory for democracy.” Brexiters see a future when the EU has shrunk into irrelevance besides all-bestriding Asian economies — but that merely suggests that Brexit might hurt less if we did it in 2050.

In general, the vision is bumping into reality. The world has changed since June 2016. The US has elected a protectionist president, squelching Brexiter fantasies of Anglosphere free-trade pacts. Meanwhile the EU has closed trade deals with Japan, Canada and, last week, Singapore, but hasn’t got anywhere with the UK.

That means Britain’s political divide now isn’t simply between pro-Europeans (“The EU is Rather Good,” said one marcher’s banner) and sovereigntists. It’s also between realists and visionaries. I’m with the late West German chancellor Helmut Schmidt: “Anybody having visions should consult a doctor.”

Many Brexiters concede that, in the words of the Japanese emperor after the atom bomb on Nagasaki, “the situation has developed not necessarily to our advantage”. Yet they press on. The Brexiter MP Andrea Jenkyns tweets, ungrammatically: “It is better to go down fighting and honouring the democratic decision of our British people. Then (sic) to be long remembered for waving a white flag and surrendering to EU demands.” Choosing utopia over reality strikes me as the mark of an out-of-touch elite living in a bubble outside of which “short-term financial impacts” happen to little people.

Polls now show a small but consistent majority for Remain. We are the country’s biggest political movement: the marchers (in the UK’s largest demonstration since one million protested against the Iraq war) outnumbered the combined memberships of the Tory and Labour parties. Even the Daily Mail, cooling on Brexit under its new editor, told readers where to get coaches to the march.

Like the people who opposed the Iraq war, last Saturday’s marchers will probably lose. As Theresa May tries to seal her bad deal with Brussels this autumn, it’s as if (to put it melodramatically) the clock is ticking on the timer device of the bomb while rescuers beat frantically on the locked door. But the marchers have shown other countries that Britain isn’t Nigel Farage, and as Brexit commentator Ian Dunt says, “They’ll have an answer when people in the future look at us aghast and ask: what the f**k were you doing mate?”

That answer won’t be available to the main party leaders: May, who has devoted her premiership to Brexit while seeming to know it’s damaging, and the supposedly authentic straight-talker Jeremy Corbyn, who won’t even admit he’s a Brexiter and spent Saturday’s march in Geneva. Many Remainers won’t forget.

https://www.ft.com/content/5336ff3c-d719-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8

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