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The Countdown begins. 23:28 - Nov 10 with 343466 viewspikeypaul



https://www.timeanddate.com/countdown/generic?iso=20190329T23&p0=1336&msg=Democr

1:19 pm today was the exact mid point from when the result that the Great British public had decided to leave the EU and the time 11pm March 29th 2019 that Democracy will be delivered.

Happy days.
[Post edited 25 Jun 17:01]

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The Countdown begins. on 13:01 - Oct 27 with 731 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 12:46 - Oct 27 by Shaky

Why I remain a Remainer
By Simon Kuper

FT, October 25, 2018

We Britons who remain Remainers 28 months after the referendum are used to being called unpatriotic, undemocratic, boring, out-of-touch, elitist bad losers. The home secretary Sajid Javid labels us “deeply unhelpful”. We are urged to get behind the project and are blamed (along with the “EUSSR”, Ireland and supposed master-puppeteer George Soros) for Brexit’s difficulties. When I criticised Brexit in a talk to Conservatives recently, very polite Leavers exhorted me afterwards: “Be positive! If we believe, we can do it.”

But like the 700,000 who marched in London last Saturday for a second referendum, I feel it’s a patriotic duty to keep fighting Brexit.

Brexit was always in part a vehicle to punish Remainer-types for our arrogance and cosmopolitanism, not simply an end in itself. Still, after Brexiters won the referendum, they should have stopped worrying about us. They had had 25 years to fine-tune a plan. There has been a Brexiter government since July 2016. We Remainers don’t control a major party. I can’t see how our disenfranchised whining shaped two years of negotiations. In any case, pluralistic democracies shouldn’t aspire to speak with one voice. Disagreement prevents groupthink.

If Brexiters had come out with a proper plan, they would have soon peeled off most Remainers or bored us into irrelevance. That’s what happened to once vocal opponents of recent British policies like the minimum wage, independence of the Bank of England and gay marriage. Alternatively, if Brexiters had gone for a soft Brexit — staying in most of the EU’s structures — the majority of Remainers would have gradually melted away. A hardcore of incorrigible sulks could then have been ignored while history marched on.

But I haven’t heard a convincing argument for Brexit since the referendum. Instead Brexit has rolled noisily into a ditch, then tumbled over. Squabbling government factions now risk Britain crashing out without a deal, and messing up people’s lives. I live in France, so my petty problems are shared with a mere 1.3 million Britons in the EU: I may require a residence permit to stay in my own home; I could lose access to healthcare. Anyone reliant on insulin imported from Europe, or working for a carmaker, or driving goods to Europe, or applying for an EU grant, or being looked after by a Lithuanian carer will have other worries.

I know the vision for Brexit was about loftier matters. As a well-off friend told me after the referendum: “You seem unduly concerned about short-term financial impacts. This is a victory for democracy.” Brexiters see a future when the EU has shrunk into irrelevance besides all-bestriding Asian economies — but that merely suggests that Brexit might hurt less if we did it in 2050.

In general, the vision is bumping into reality. The world has changed since June 2016. The US has elected a protectionist president, squelching Brexiter fantasies of Anglosphere free-trade pacts. Meanwhile the EU has closed trade deals with Japan, Canada and, last week, Singapore, but hasn’t got anywhere with the UK.

That means Britain’s political divide now isn’t simply between pro-Europeans (“The EU is Rather Good,” said one marcher’s banner) and sovereigntists. It’s also between realists and visionaries. I’m with the late West German chancellor Helmut Schmidt: “Anybody having visions should consult a doctor.”

Many Brexiters concede that, in the words of the Japanese emperor after the atom bomb on Nagasaki, “the situation has developed not necessarily to our advantage”. Yet they press on. The Brexiter MP Andrea Jenkyns tweets, ungrammatically: “It is better to go down fighting and honouring the democratic decision of our British people. Then (sic) to be long remembered for waving a white flag and surrendering to EU demands.” Choosing utopia over reality strikes me as the mark of an out-of-touch elite living in a bubble outside of which “short-term financial impacts” happen to little people.

Polls now show a small but consistent majority for Remain. We are the country’s biggest political movement: the marchers (in the UK’s largest demonstration since one million protested against the Iraq war) outnumbered the combined memberships of the Tory and Labour parties. Even the Daily Mail, cooling on Brexit under its new editor, told readers where to get coaches to the march.

Like the people who opposed the Iraq war, last Saturday’s marchers will probably lose. As Theresa May tries to seal her bad deal with Brussels this autumn, it’s as if (to put it melodramatically) the clock is ticking on the timer device of the bomb while rescuers beat frantically on the locked door. But the marchers have shown other countries that Britain isn’t Nigel Farage, and as Brexit commentator Ian Dunt says, “They’ll have an answer when people in the future look at us aghast and ask: what the f**k were you doing mate?”

That answer won’t be available to the main party leaders: May, who has devoted her premiership to Brexit while seeming to know it’s damaging, and the supposedly authentic straight-talker Jeremy Corbyn, who won’t even admit he’s a Brexiter and spent Saturday’s march in Geneva. Many Remainers won’t forget.

https://www.ft.com/content/5336ff3c-d719-11e8-a854-33d6f82e62f8


Why do people who voted remain in the first place and lost, then think that they can then get together and go on a march and think they that they should be listened to? They need to get a hobby and learn to take defeat better. Pathetic bunch
[Post edited 27 Oct 13:02]
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The Countdown begins. on 14:14 - Oct 27 with 704 viewsunion_jack

The Countdown begins. on 13:01 - Oct 27 by Jango

Why do people who voted remain in the first place and lost, then think that they can then get together and go on a march and think they that they should be listened to? They need to get a hobby and learn to take defeat better. Pathetic bunch
[Post edited 27 Oct 13:02]


I know Brexiters are uneasy about a second referendum because the reality is that they'd highly likely lose. Surely that is democracy though because the majority would then have voted remain.

This is a unique situation because, and I'm sure this has been said many times on this thread, only now are things clearer as to the consequences of voting one way or the other. That certainly was not the case in 2016.

As I said earlier, let's have a second vote, in or out, when the deal is on the table. That will be true democracy.

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The Countdown begins. on 15:22 - Oct 27 with 689 viewspikeypaul

There will not be a 2nd referendum since all parties know if they decided to ignore the “once in a generation vote”democracy would be gone in this country.Labour and the Conservatives know it would be suicidal to allow it.

If there was the Leave voters would boycott it since why would they bother voting again after having the first result ignored.

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The Countdown begins. on 16:31 - Oct 27 with 677 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 15:22 - Oct 27 by pikeypaul

There will not be a 2nd referendum since all parties know if they decided to ignore the “once in a generation vote”democracy would be gone in this country.Labour and the Conservatives know it would be suicidal to allow it.

If there was the Leave voters would boycott it since why would they bother voting again after having the first result ignored.

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Well done, Pike.

They said it couldn't be done, but the argument that holding a second referendum would kill off democracy is right up there with the biggest piles of steaming shit seen from the Leave side in this sorry episode of British history.

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The Countdown begins. on 18:42 - Oct 27 with 649 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 14:14 - Oct 27 by union_jack

I know Brexiters are uneasy about a second referendum because the reality is that they'd highly likely lose. Surely that is democracy though because the majority would then have voted remain.

This is a unique situation because, and I'm sure this has been said many times on this thread, only now are things clearer as to the consequences of voting one way or the other. That certainly was not the case in 2016.

As I said earlier, let's have a second vote, in or out, when the deal is on the table. That will be true democracy.


Yes lets have another vote but not leave or remain but to accept the deal or refuse it. We already decided to leave in what was supposedly a once in a generation referendum.

To be honest, if we are given the choice to leave or remain again then where does it end? If we narrowly choose remain all the leavers will keep going on about it and vice versa. It'll be a never ending argument and the sh/tstorm that it's become will drag on for years with nothing being sorted.
Far better if the deal May gets to is considered good enough and we all move on, together.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 19:11 - Oct 27 with 638 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 18:42 - Oct 27 by Catullus

Yes lets have another vote but not leave or remain but to accept the deal or refuse it. We already decided to leave in what was supposedly a once in a generation referendum.

To be honest, if we are given the choice to leave or remain again then where does it end? If we narrowly choose remain all the leavers will keep going on about it and vice versa. It'll be a never ending argument and the sh/tstorm that it's become will drag on for years with nothing being sorted.
Far better if the deal May gets to is considered good enough and we all move on, together.


That's right, we voted to have an operation, and now the only choice should be decapitation, or Boris to perform open heart surgery while shagging the junior theatre nurse.

To say, sorry, now we know what the choice is we've had second thoughts about this would be the sort of things foreigners do.

In other words sensible.

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The Countdown begins. on 19:51 - Oct 27 with 615 viewsKilkennyjack

Can the fecked up Tory Brexit -in any way possible.

When people’s jobs are gone and there is less taxation for health and education, then it will be too late.

Democracy did not end in 2016.

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The Countdown begins. on 21:57 - Oct 27 with 575 viewsShaky

What's the EU ever done for us?

EU Competition Commissioner Margrethe Vestager discusses tax cheats, privacy, innovation and then some:

https://www.gzeromedia.com/videos/europes-tech-battle/

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The Countdown begins. on 09:16 - Oct 28 with 521 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 19:51 - Oct 27 by Kilkennyjack

Can the fecked up Tory Brexit -in any way possible.

When people’s jobs are gone and there is less taxation for health and education, then it will be too late.

Democracy did not end in 2016.

Smash Brexit ✊🏾


Yet democracy is not repeating votes until the noisy minority get their way. It's a conundrum really.
As said plenty of times, if you start repeating votes, where does it end? Would you rather the whole country stagnated and the outcome was even worse because the losing side won't accept the outcome. And I mean that sincerely as in if we repeated the vote and leave kept going on about it too.
We could still be arguing and voting 2/3/4 years down the line and that would make the whole thing a sad parody of itself and do irreparable damage.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 10:34 - Oct 28 with 509 viewspikeypaul

Democracy will be served despite the pathetic remoaners not wanting it.

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No deal is coming home and I fecking love it

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The Countdown begins. on 16:42 - Oct 28 with 446 viewsHighjack

The Countdown begins. on 16:31 - Oct 27 by Shaky

Well done, Pike.

They said it couldn't be done, but the argument that holding a second referendum would kill off democracy is right up there with the biggest piles of steaming shit seen from the Leave side in this sorry episode of British history.


It’s almost as big as the massive steaming pile of shyte that came out of every politicians mouth when they said “we will carry out the result of this referendum, it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity to choose”. And I’m sure they 100% meant every word until the results started coming in.

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The Countdown begins. on 16:45 - Oct 28 with 444 viewsexiledclaseboy

The Countdown begins. on 16:42 - Oct 28 by Highjack

It’s almost as big as the massive steaming pile of shyte that came out of every politicians mouth when they said “we will carry out the result of this referendum, it’s a once in a lifetime opportunity to choose”. And I’m sure they 100% meant every word until the results started coming in.


They are carrying out the result of the referendum though. Inexorably. And really badly.

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The Countdown begins. on 16:54 - Oct 28 with 431 viewsHighjack

The Countdown begins. on 16:45 - Oct 28 by exiledclaseboy

They are carrying out the result of the referendum though. Inexorably. And really badly.


Yeah but that’s probably all part of the plan to keep us in. We won’t be allowed to leave by either side and they have no intention of making a success of it. My prediction is they’ll get to the end of the time period and keep extending the negotiations indefinitely before everyone gets fed up eventually saying “we’ve tried our best honest guv but can’t reach an agreement, here’s another referendum vote the right way this time for fawkes sake”.

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The Countdown begins. on 16:58 - Oct 28 with 422 viewsLohengrin

The Countdown begins. on 16:45 - Oct 28 by exiledclaseboy

They are carrying out the result of the referendum though. Inexorably. And really badly.


I wouldn’t worry yourself too much, Clase. The entire European Institution as we know it now will be defunct within the next five years and when it is remade Britain will be where she ought to have been in 1957, if not ‘47, right in the centre of it. A driving force.

It’s all in the runes.

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The Countdown begins. on 17:00 - Oct 28 with 419 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 16:45 - Oct 28 by exiledclaseboy

They are carrying out the result of the referendum though. Inexorably. And really badly.


Most remainer MP’s have never accepted the result of the vote and have been trying to overturn it since the day after. If they had all got together and fought for the best deal then we probably wouldn’t be in this mess.
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The Countdown begins. on 18:26 - Oct 28 with 399 viewsLeonWasGod

The Countdown begins. on 13:01 - Oct 27 by Jango

Why do people who voted remain in the first place and lost, then think that they can then get together and go on a march and think they that they should be listened to? They need to get a hobby and learn to take defeat better. Pathetic bunch
[Post edited 27 Oct 13:02]


You’re against the right to peaceful protest then? That’s an interesting stance.
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The Countdown begins. on 18:43 - Oct 28 with 387 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 16:45 - Oct 28 by exiledclaseboy

They are carrying out the result of the referendum though. Inexorably. And really badly.


Theresa May is trying to carry it out with some extremely dodgy support. Many remain MP's are actively trying to subvert brexit, like those from different partis who apparently met with Barnier and urged him to hold out because it wasn't far from the UK changing it's mind, Plaid, SNP, Greens and others are guilty of this behaviour. Labour, well Corbyn and McDonnell are guilty of chasing a different agenda, they want to use brexit to force a general election, hence they're not supporting a motion being put up by yet more remainers to say Parliament will only accept the deal if there's a referendum on it.

The sh/tstorm hasn't just been made by bad brexit negotiations, it has been made worse by all those who have actively undermined May.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 18:53 - Oct 28 with 381 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 18:26 - Oct 28 by LeonWasGod

You’re against the right to peaceful protest then? That’s an interesting stance.


If they want do a pointless march that’s up to them. they are trying to use it as another reason why there should be a 2nd vote though. People who voted remain marching because they still want to remain is an absolutely pointless exercise.
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The Countdown begins. on 21:28 - Oct 28 with 346 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 18:53 - Oct 28 by Jango

If they want do a pointless march that’s up to them. they are trying to use it as another reason why there should be a 2nd vote though. People who voted remain marching because they still want to remain is an absolutely pointless exercise.


I don't see it as pointless, th day people stop protesting is the day politicians get away with everything without a second thought.
If things are to change for the better we need to keep pressure on our elected representatives whether we agree with the protestors or not. Peaceful protest is a cornerstone of democracy, take the anti war march, over one million took part sending a clear message to politicians.
At the very least the pro remain march reminds May and her inept colleagues they need to get a good deal.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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The Countdown begins. on 21:53 - Oct 28 with 331 viewsJack_Meoff

The Countdown begins. on 21:28 - Oct 28 by Catullus

I don't see it as pointless, th day people stop protesting is the day politicians get away with everything without a second thought.
If things are to change for the better we need to keep pressure on our elected representatives whether we agree with the protestors or not. Peaceful protest is a cornerstone of democracy, take the anti war march, over one million took part sending a clear message to politicians.
At the very least the pro remain march reminds May and her inept colleagues they need to get a good deal.


Yeah, really sent a message to Blair did that march in 2003. So thankful he heeded the public's wishes or there really could have been total carnage in Iraq, and the wider Middle East ever since.

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The Countdown begins. on 06:21 - Oct 29 with 276 viewspikeypaul

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Not long now lads.

No deal is coming home.

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The Countdown begins. on 09:21 - Oct 29 with 256 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 21:53 - Oct 28 by Jack_Meoff

Yeah, really sent a message to Blair did that march in 2003. So thankful he heeded the public's wishes or there really could have been total carnage in Iraq, and the wider Middle East ever since.


Oh come on, it still wasn't fully realised how much of an arrogant, egotistical and dangerous man Blair was but the message eventually hit home.
Most of the country (myself included) fell for his lies and deceit first time around. It was only when he stepped down we started to realise what he really was. Is there a more reviled politician in modern times? He even gives Thatcher a run because most Labour supporters these days think Blair is scum.
The message did get through though, hence the vote in parliament against further military action, you know, the one that Cameron got around by loaning the RAF to the Americans!!

Devious critters these politicos

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 10:23 - Oct 29 with 238 viewsBatterseajack

The Countdown begins. on 21:53 - Oct 28 by Jack_Meoff

Yeah, really sent a message to Blair did that march in 2003. So thankful he heeded the public's wishes or there really could have been total carnage in Iraq, and the wider Middle East ever since.


Blair had full cross party majority support in the commons to go into Iraq, which can't be said about Brexit. Cameron/Conservatives would have done exactly the same as Blair.

Blair never recovered or ever will recover from ignoring the public. TM should take that into consideration.
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The Countdown begins. on 11:06 - Oct 29 with 226 viewsCatullus

The Countdown begins. on 10:23 - Oct 29 by Batterseajack

Blair had full cross party majority support in the commons to go into Iraq, which can't be said about Brexit. Cameron/Conservatives would have done exactly the same as Blair.

Blair never recovered or ever will recover from ignoring the public. TM should take that into consideration.


The thing about ignoring the public is, when it came to more war there was a huge surge in public opinion against it. On brexit though the country is still very closely split, depit what anybody claims there is no real evidence of a swing either way big enough to change May's mind.
Brexit is the most important happening in the UK for some considerable time yet it couldn't raise as many people to march than the anti war march.
Remainers, just like leavers, have strong opinions about Brexit and both seem baffled that the other side can't see their side of the argument and be converted/convinced or at least made to reconsider.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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The Countdown begins. on 13:19 - Oct 29 with 200 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 10:23 - Oct 29 by Batterseajack

Blair had full cross party majority support in the commons to go into Iraq, which can't be said about Brexit. Cameron/Conservatives would have done exactly the same as Blair.

Blair never recovered or ever will recover from ignoring the public. TM should take that into consideration.


From 2015

MPs have overwhelmingly backed plans for a referendum on the UK's membership of the European Union.
The vote, which followed the first debate on the EU Referendum Bill, means the legislation moves to the next stage of its progress through Parliament.
Foreign Secretary Philip Hammond said a "generation" had been denied a say on the UK's place in Europe, and the public must now have the "final say".
MPs voted by 544 to 53 in favour of the bill


And Theresa May is taking the public into consideration. The majority of it anyway.
[Post edited 29 Oct 13:31]
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