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Countdown to the end of Democracy in the UK 23:28 - Nov 10 with 1201370 viewspikeypaul



And like a typical anti democracy remoaner he decided the will of the people should be ignored the minute the democratic result was in total fecking hypocrite 😂😂😂😂😂😂

Despite it being voted in to law by the commons the spineless two faced remoaner MPs have totally abandoned any morals and decided to ignore the will of the British people.

It will be remembered and no election or referendum will ever be the same again in this country.

The one thing that will come is a massive surge in the popularity of UKIP or a similar party in the future who stand for the 52%.

Happy Days.

[Post edited 29 Mar 4:37]

🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧 🇬🇧
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The Countdown begins. on 14:38 - Dec 12 with 1055 viewssherpajacob

The Countdown begins. on 14:17 - Dec 12 by Shaky

A no-deal Brexit looks likelier by the day
By Daniel Finkelstein

The Times, December 11 2018, 5:00pm, The Times

Even if the PM won the meaningful vote, without Labour support she has no hope of passing the EU withdrawal bill
In case you feel that the future path of Brexit is insufficiently complicated, allow me to introduce you to . . . the Houghton compromise.

On October 28, 1971, Roy Jenkins, deputy leader of the Labour Party, had dinner with his wife in Lockets restaurant and then walked around the corner to the House of Commons and cast a vote against his own party’s three-line whip.

Accompanying him, as he strode through the division lobby, was Douglas Houghton, chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party. And 67 other Labour MPs followed their example. The rebels were supporting Ted Heath’s motion and providing support, in principle, for membership of the European Common Market.

Mr Heath had allowed his own MPs a free vote and 33 of them had voted against him. It was Jenkins’s rebellion that had seen the Conservative prime minister home. But now the Labour MPs faced a problem.

In order for Britain to join the Common Market, it wasn’t enough to agree the principle. Parliament would have to pass a bill. And, if they were to be consistent, this presented the 69 with the prospect of having to vote with the government again and again. This was simply too much for them to contemplate. The party, in particular constituency parties, was already angry enough, accusing the rebels of propping up a Tory government and calling for both Jenkins and Houghton to resign.

In response to this fury, Houghton proposed a compromise. His vote on the principle would be his only one against the party line. If the government wanted to pass legislation, he argued, it had to rely on its own majority. The day after his rebellious vote, Jenkins announced that he accepted the Houghton compromise.

It was agonising for him, because it threatened the principle of common market membership. Heath came very close to losing on the second reading (the main vote on the thrust of the bill) even after declaring it a vote of confidence (he was bailed out by the Liberals). But Jenkins and Houghton really had no choice because of party politics.

If you understand the Houghton compromise, and the reasons for it, you will appreciate that however bad the prospects look for a Brexit deal, the reality is even worse.

To complete the withdrawal agreement process, it is not enough for the government to get parliament to approve the so-called “meaningful vote” on the principle of the deal. It must also pass, through every stage and through both houses, a withdrawal agreement bill. Such legislation is not only necessary to ensure parliament has the powers to implement the agreement, but is also formally required for the withdrawal agreement to be ratified. No bill, no deal.

Now consider what this means. Whatever “clarifications” and “assurances” Theresa May might get from other European leaders in the next few days, they will not be enough for her to win the meaningful vote without some Labour backing. She must know this. Her aim is surely to reduce the rebellion on her own side so that that the support of a modest number of Labour rebels will be enough for her to get the deal over the line.

That’s where the Houghton compromise becomes an issue. While some Labour rebels might vote with her on the principle to avoid chaos, and while it is just about feasible to imagine that being enough (although the leap of imagination is great), the principle is only the beginning, not the end.

If Mrs May’s deal passed the first stage of the meaningful vote, parliament would then have to consider a bill with dozens of amendments. To ratify the withdrawal agreement, Labour rebels would therefore have to defy three-line whips over and over again, while constantly under pressure from their national and local party. The same considerations that led Houghton to resume voting against the Conservative government in 1971 would apply to Labour rebels now. It is hard to see them reaching a different conclusion.

At a minimum, the withdrawal agreement bill will have to include proposals that cover citizens’ rights, the transition period, and the payment of the so-called divorce bill. It might also cover the administration of the border with Ireland. In other words, night after night, the government would face huge defections on its own side and be relying on Labour votes that probably won’t be forthcoming.

And this is assuming they manage to patch together a rickety coalition big enough to win the meaningful vote in the first place. A heroic assumption.

Oh, and I nearly forgot another thing. These are only the requirements for Britain to pass the deal. The EU has its own procedures. Most important is that its parliament has to give assent. And it has always said that it could take three months to do that. At the very least this is an extra complication.

Taken together, all this makes it hard to see how the government can get ratification for its withdrawal agreement without the solid and timely support of Labour’s front bench. The government simply needs a proper reliable majority to get the bill through and only official opposition support can provide that.

Yet obviously that support won’t be forthcoming without major changes to the agreement — a permanent customs union, for instance, or a second referendum — that Labour would regard as acceptable. One difficulty is that it is not clear what those changes might be. Labour itself doesn’t know what it is prepared to accept and, even if it did, has little incentive to tell anyone else. It is quite possible that it will decide only when it is too late to act.

I strongly suspect that, if he ever backs one at all, Jeremy Corbyn would like to put off supporting a second referendum just long enough that he can take credit for supporting the principle, without there being time left to actually do it.
Another difficulty is that such changes might deprive the deal of any remaining Tory support, making the government’s almost impossible position completely impossible.

There is a widespread view that the chance of having no deal is pretty low because such an outcome would be calamitous and, anyway, there is no majority for it. It’s surely too stupid a thing to allow actually to happen?

That view is wrong. It is incredibly complacent. Mrs May has returned with the only deal we are going to be offered and parliament won’t pass it. This by itself means that the chances of no deal are very high indeed. Looked at another way, the things we have to do now to secure a deal are looking forbiddingly difficult.

What a disaster. What a disgrace.


the ludicrous situation whereby the referendum was a free vote and afterwards all subsequent votes on the subject were 3 line whipped.

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The Countdown begins. on 14:48 - Dec 12 with 1047 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 14:17 - Dec 12 by Shaky

A no-deal Brexit looks likelier by the day
By Daniel Finkelstein

The Times, December 11 2018, 5:00pm, The Times

Even if the PM won the meaningful vote, without Labour support she has no hope of passing the EU withdrawal bill
In case you feel that the future path of Brexit is insufficiently complicated, allow me to introduce you to . . . the Houghton compromise.

On October 28, 1971, Roy Jenkins, deputy leader of the Labour Party, had dinner with his wife in Lockets restaurant and then walked around the corner to the House of Commons and cast a vote against his own party’s three-line whip.

Accompanying him, as he strode through the division lobby, was Douglas Houghton, chairman of the Parliamentary Labour Party. And 67 other Labour MPs followed their example. The rebels were supporting Ted Heath’s motion and providing support, in principle, for membership of the European Common Market.

Mr Heath had allowed his own MPs a free vote and 33 of them had voted against him. It was Jenkins’s rebellion that had seen the Conservative prime minister home. But now the Labour MPs faced a problem.

In order for Britain to join the Common Market, it wasn’t enough to agree the principle. Parliament would have to pass a bill. And, if they were to be consistent, this presented the 69 with the prospect of having to vote with the government again and again. This was simply too much for them to contemplate. The party, in particular constituency parties, was already angry enough, accusing the rebels of propping up a Tory government and calling for both Jenkins and Houghton to resign.

In response to this fury, Houghton proposed a compromise. His vote on the principle would be his only one against the party line. If the government wanted to pass legislation, he argued, it had to rely on its own majority. The day after his rebellious vote, Jenkins announced that he accepted the Houghton compromise.

It was agonising for him, because it threatened the principle of common market membership. Heath came very close to losing on the second reading (the main vote on the thrust of the bill) even after declaring it a vote of confidence (he was bailed out by the Liberals). But Jenkins and Houghton really had no choice because of party politics.

If you understand the Houghton compromise, and the reasons for it, you will appreciate that however bad the prospects look for a Brexit deal, the reality is even worse.

To complete the withdrawal agreement process, it is not enough for the government to get parliament to approve the so-called “meaningful vote” on the principle of the deal. It must also pass, through every stage and through both houses, a withdrawal agreement bill. Such legislation is not only necessary to ensure parliament has the powers to implement the agreement, but is also formally required for the withdrawal agreement to be ratified. No bill, no deal.

Now consider what this means. Whatever “clarifications” and “assurances” Theresa May might get from other European leaders in the next few days, they will not be enough for her to win the meaningful vote without some Labour backing. She must know this. Her aim is surely to reduce the rebellion on her own side so that that the support of a modest number of Labour rebels will be enough for her to get the deal over the line.

That’s where the Houghton compromise becomes an issue. While some Labour rebels might vote with her on the principle to avoid chaos, and while it is just about feasible to imagine that being enough (although the leap of imagination is great), the principle is only the beginning, not the end.

If Mrs May’s deal passed the first stage of the meaningful vote, parliament would then have to consider a bill with dozens of amendments. To ratify the withdrawal agreement, Labour rebels would therefore have to defy three-line whips over and over again, while constantly under pressure from their national and local party. The same considerations that led Houghton to resume voting against the Conservative government in 1971 would apply to Labour rebels now. It is hard to see them reaching a different conclusion.

At a minimum, the withdrawal agreement bill will have to include proposals that cover citizens’ rights, the transition period, and the payment of the so-called divorce bill. It might also cover the administration of the border with Ireland. In other words, night after night, the government would face huge defections on its own side and be relying on Labour votes that probably won’t be forthcoming.

And this is assuming they manage to patch together a rickety coalition big enough to win the meaningful vote in the first place. A heroic assumption.

Oh, and I nearly forgot another thing. These are only the requirements for Britain to pass the deal. The EU has its own procedures. Most important is that its parliament has to give assent. And it has always said that it could take three months to do that. At the very least this is an extra complication.

Taken together, all this makes it hard to see how the government can get ratification for its withdrawal agreement without the solid and timely support of Labour’s front bench. The government simply needs a proper reliable majority to get the bill through and only official opposition support can provide that.

Yet obviously that support won’t be forthcoming without major changes to the agreement — a permanent customs union, for instance, or a second referendum — that Labour would regard as acceptable. One difficulty is that it is not clear what those changes might be. Labour itself doesn’t know what it is prepared to accept and, even if it did, has little incentive to tell anyone else. It is quite possible that it will decide only when it is too late to act.

I strongly suspect that, if he ever backs one at all, Jeremy Corbyn would like to put off supporting a second referendum just long enough that he can take credit for supporting the principle, without there being time left to actually do it.
Another difficulty is that such changes might deprive the deal of any remaining Tory support, making the government’s almost impossible position completely impossible.

There is a widespread view that the chance of having no deal is pretty low because such an outcome would be calamitous and, anyway, there is no majority for it. It’s surely too stupid a thing to allow actually to happen?

That view is wrong. It is incredibly complacent. Mrs May has returned with the only deal we are going to be offered and parliament won’t pass it. This by itself means that the chances of no deal are very high indeed. Looked at another way, the things we have to do now to secure a deal are looking forbiddingly difficult.

What a disaster. What a disgrace.


Yep, disgrace that remainer MPs have wasted two and a half years fighting to overturn the vote of the people when they could have got behind the PM and fought as country for a better deal. Mugs.
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The Countdown begins. on 14:50 - Dec 12 with 1043 viewsHighjack

The Countdown begins. on 13:40 - Dec 12 by sherpajacob

both sides lied.

if both finalists in the Olympic boxing fail drugs tests , they don't let the winner keep the gold medal because the runner up cheated as well.


the argument "remain lied as well" is legally and morally bankrupt. it makes the result even less valid, not more.

Those that can't see this are the real danger to democracy.


I’m not sure either side lied, but they took things that could possibly come to pass and wildly exaggerated them. For example a downturn in the economy was always inevitable as that usually happens with any sort of uncertainty so that much was true but the effects of the leave vote has been shown to be wildly exaggerated.

On the other side for example it is absolutely true that if we stop paying money in to the EU we could theoretically spend it on the NHS instead if the government of the day chooses to. The problem is however that anybody with working sensory organs could have told you that the Tories would rather spend it on torturing kittens for fun or bombing the Middle East.

Every general election, every political campaign is the same. Exaggerated half truths spun into wonderful promises.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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The Countdown begins. on 14:50 - Dec 12 with 1042 viewsKilkennyjack

The Countdown begins. on 14:38 - Dec 12 by sherpajacob

the ludicrous situation whereby the referendum was a free vote and afterwards all subsequent votes on the subject were 3 line whipped.




Great news ....oh hang on ....

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

3

The Countdown begins. on 15:04 - Dec 12 with 1031 viewsShaky


Misology -- It's a bitch
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The Countdown begins. on 15:13 - Dec 12 with 1028 viewsShaky

The Countdown begins. on 12:36 - Dec 12 by WarwickHunt

He’s staggeringly, spectacularly, breathtakingly fûcking dim.

The next PM? 😂😂😂
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 12:37]



Misology -- It's a bitch
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The Countdown begins. on 15:16 - Dec 12 with 1028 viewsBatterseajack

The Countdown begins. on 14:50 - Dec 12 by Kilkennyjack



Great news ....oh hang on ....


Should be great for one month and 28 days
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The Countdown begins. on 15:50 - Dec 12 with 999 viewssherpajacob

The Countdown begins. on 14:38 - Dec 12 by Jango

Yes and I’m sure you’d be pleased to see another referendum had the vote gone the other way. People are lied to every general election, you don’t see them voiding the vote everytime though.


whichever way the vote, or any vote goes, if all the parties were found to have lied and broken election rules, i would expect the result to made void.

https://www.channel4.com/news/labour-mp-woolas-election-declared-void

when a politician is caught lying, they are supposed to resign.

As I said those that cannot see this, or deny it, are the real and biggest danger to our democracy and freedom.

From the Uk government ministerial code.
The Principles of Public Life
Honesty
Holders of public office should be truthful.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:03]

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The Countdown begins. on 16:22 - Dec 12 with 966 viewsA_Fans_Dad

The Countdown begins. on 15:50 - Dec 12 by sherpajacob

whichever way the vote, or any vote goes, if all the parties were found to have lied and broken election rules, i would expect the result to made void.

https://www.channel4.com/news/labour-mp-woolas-election-declared-void

when a politician is caught lying, they are supposed to resign.

As I said those that cannot see this, or deny it, are the real and biggest danger to our democracy and freedom.

From the Uk government ministerial code.
The Principles of Public Life
Honesty
Holders of public office should be truthful.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 16:03]


"when a politician is caught lying, they are supposed to resign. "
Perhaps someone should tell T May that, oh hang on they did in PMQs today.
-1
The Countdown begins. on 16:25 - Dec 12 with 962 viewsA_Fans_Dad

The Countdown begins. on 13:18 - Dec 12 by Ebo

Because we haven't left yet you dripping f ucking whelk.


So you actually believe all that utter claptrap then?
How sad.
-1
The Countdown begins. on 17:01 - Dec 12 with 943 viewsthe_oracle

The Countdown begins. on 14:50 - Dec 12 by Highjack

I’m not sure either side lied, but they took things that could possibly come to pass and wildly exaggerated them. For example a downturn in the economy was always inevitable as that usually happens with any sort of uncertainty so that much was true but the effects of the leave vote has been shown to be wildly exaggerated.

On the other side for example it is absolutely true that if we stop paying money in to the EU we could theoretically spend it on the NHS instead if the government of the day chooses to. The problem is however that anybody with working sensory organs could have told you that the Tories would rather spend it on torturing kittens for fun or bombing the Middle East.

Every general election, every political campaign is the same. Exaggerated half truths spun into wonderful promises.


Wow.

"not sure either side lied", then "absolutely true we stop paying money in the EU .... spend it on the NHS instead".
1

The Countdown begins. on 17:49 - Dec 12 with 918 viewsShaky

This thing may be closer than expected:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sex text MP Andrew Griffiths has Tory whip restored just in time to save Theresa May

Andrew Griffiths has had the Tory whip restored after almost six months - and will back Prime Minister in a crunch no confidence vote

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/sex-text-mp-andrew-griffiths-13724875

Misology -- It's a bitch
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The Countdown begins. on 18:08 - Dec 12 with 907 viewslonglostjack

The Countdown begins. on 10:05 - Dec 12 by WarwickHunt

Great comment in The Guardian after John Crace’s latest caustic piece -

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/11/theresa-may-struggles-with-free

“Perhaps May wanted to keep the benefits of staying in her car while also attempting to leave it“
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 10:17]


She never was a fan of freedom of movement.

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The Countdown begins. on 18:35 - Dec 12 with 893 viewsA_Fans_Dad

The Countdown begins. on 17:01 - Dec 12 by the_oracle

Wow.

"not sure either side lied", then "absolutely true we stop paying money in the EU .... spend it on the NHS instead".


Would you mind providing the complete sentence instead of 2 halves?
-1

The Countdown begins. on 19:11 - Dec 12 with 871 viewsBatterseajack

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The Countdown begins. on 19:15 - Dec 12 with 866 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 19:11 - Dec 12 by Batterseajack



It’s an affront to democracy to vote on something and not have it implemented.
1
The Countdown begins. on 19:19 - Dec 12 with 863 viewslonglostjack

The Countdown begins. on 19:15 - Dec 12 by Jango

It’s an affront to democracy to vote on something and not have it implemented.


Liam Fox said at lunchtime that we live in a Parliamentary democracy. I nearly choked.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 20:04]

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The Countdown begins. on 19:35 - Dec 12 with 853 viewsBatterseajack

The Countdown begins. on 19:15 - Dec 12 by Jango

It’s an affront to democracy to vote on something and not have it implemented.


0
The Countdown begins. on 19:48 - Dec 12 with 843 viewsJango

The Countdown begins. on 19:35 - Dec 12 by Batterseajack



The mandate to complete brexit was already in place so get a grip. She won the vote, she’s had 2.5 years in the job and she’s failed miserably. She also never had people campaigning to 24/7 to overturn the vote the day after either. The result was implemented, the result of brexit hasn’t been.
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The Countdown begins. on 20:32 - Dec 12 with 821 viewslondonlisa2001

The Countdown begins. on 19:48 - Dec 12 by Jango

The mandate to complete brexit was already in place so get a grip. She won the vote, she’s had 2.5 years in the job and she’s failed miserably. She also never had people campaigning to 24/7 to overturn the vote the day after either. The result was implemented, the result of brexit hasn’t been.


What’s your answer to it all Jango?

That respects the Good Friday Agreement.

Because all I’m seeing is ‘solutions’ that ignore the Good Friday Agreement and the very existence of the United Kingdom.

Give us just one that works. Irrespective of whether it could be acceptable to the EU.

Suggest one bloody solution that fulfils your requirements and keeps the Good Friday Agreement intact.

If you can’t, then tell us which leader could.
0
The Countdown begins. on 20:40 - Dec 12 with 807 viewslondonlisa2001

The Countdown begins. on 20:32 - Dec 12 by londonlisa2001

What’s your answer to it all Jango?

That respects the Good Friday Agreement.

Because all I’m seeing is ‘solutions’ that ignore the Good Friday Agreement and the very existence of the United Kingdom.

Give us just one that works. Irrespective of whether it could be acceptable to the EU.

Suggest one bloody solution that fulfils your requirements and keeps the Good Friday Agreement intact.

If you can’t, then tell us which leader could.


And by the way.

Your post about British workers being replaced by Portuguese or Romanian workers - I get that. I understand why people in that position would vote to leave.

But what you don’t seem to get is the alternative. Those Portuguese workers won’t be replaced by British workers. They’ll either be replaced by workers from the Philippines or Bangladesh or the jobs will just go.

If you genuinely think that Jacob Rees Mogg or Boris Johnson care even slightly about ‘British workers’ you are completely deluded.
5
The Countdown begins. on 20:44 - Dec 12 with 801 viewsHighjack

The Countdown begins. on 17:01 - Dec 12 by the_oracle

Wow.

"not sure either side lied", then "absolutely true we stop paying money in the EU .... spend it on the NHS instead".


Fantastic selective editing. Do you work for the BBC?

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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-1
The Countdown begins. on 20:48 - Dec 12 with 796 viewsHighjack

The Countdown begins. on 18:35 - Dec 12 by A_Fans_Dad

Would you mind providing the complete sentence instead of 2 halves?


Innit.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: The official planetswans European election poll. Your vote goes to?

-1
The Countdown begins. on 20:49 - Dec 12 with 795 viewsLeonWasGod

The Countdown begins. on 19:48 - Dec 12 by Jango

The mandate to complete brexit was already in place so get a grip. She won the vote, she’s had 2.5 years in the job and she’s failed miserably. She also never had people campaigning to 24/7 to overturn the vote the day after either. The result was implemented, the result of brexit hasn’t been.


She’s put a deal on the table that takes us out of the EU, ends freedom of movement, and means we won’t have to pay £350m a week but can chose to spend that on the NHS instead.

Which were all cornerstones of the Brexiteers’ campaign. The same Brexiteers who are now trying to derail the deal, who don’t want Parliament to be sovereign and who are seeking to overturn the vote that put her in power.

You Brexiteer types are odd sorts.
1
The Countdown begins. on 20:51 - Dec 12 with 790 viewsbluey_the_blue

The Countdown begins. on 20:49 - Dec 12 by LeonWasGod

She’s put a deal on the table that takes us out of the EU, ends freedom of movement, and means we won’t have to pay £350m a week but can chose to spend that on the NHS instead.

Which were all cornerstones of the Brexiteers’ campaign. The same Brexiteers who are now trying to derail the deal, who don’t want Parliament to be sovereign and who are seeking to overturn the vote that put her in power.

You Brexiteer types are odd sorts.


All sides view it as a bad deal, Remain and Leave.
0
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