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Not all degrees worthwhile? 14:02 - Feb 5 with 9479 viewsProfessor

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-42923529

Lisa made this point in another thread recently. I tend to agree that too many people go to university undertaking degrees that are arguable less worthwhile than an apprenticeship. I strongly advocate work-based learning that can be accredited towards qualifications, though many academics don't like this, why not work in civil engineering or business and study through work?

Any other thoughts?
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:18 - Feb 5 with 3404 viewsperchrockjack

Paul.
Our lad was at Calday Grammar and is bright . From his second year there ,the pressure to get into university was constant regardless of his aptitudes.

Even up to A. Levels he had no idea as to what to do except go to university when He read Chemisty.

After graduating he has yet to be in a job remotely linked to chemistry. He s done well but several of his chums have not .


Our daughter is also bright but terrible at exams through nerves .She went to Wallasey School and got 12 GCSE s all with very good grades .She was under enormous pressure, no doubt for school stats , to go to university . She hated the prospect being a feisty girl and started work at APH . She s always worked and as you know now, has her own business. She has no debt and her house in Irby is sizeable ....


I'm very proud of her as she proves a kid. Does NOT have to go to University.

We re particularly proud of her ,although, a kid has to be strong to resist schools pressure to go to uni . Not all kids are and drift into uni and drift afterwards



to go to uni

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:29 - Feb 5 with 3392 viewsLohengrin

I made the point on here a little while back that the demise of the Secondary Modern, with its heavy emphasis on trade skills, was a disaster for the nation. When you hear idle talk from politicians about the skills deficit I find myself wondering are they completely incapable of calculating cause and effect?

As far as university goes, what are we hoping to achieve? If funding is finite then surely it has to be properly and formally focused? What is essential, Prof, by your reckoning? Maths, Science, Engineering and Medicine, in no particular order would be my recommendation for prioritisation. Identify the brightest and best and fully fund their progression toward graduation. These are the people and those are the disciplines that safeguard tomorrow.

An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:31 - Feb 5 with 3386 viewsPozuelosSideys

Meh

Many degrees are worthwhile. Maths, Sciences etc. The core stuff. The fluffy stuff, less so. There should be far more vocational stuff going around. Why more people don't do engineering over the likes of arts and media etc is beyond me.

Tbh, I got very little value out of my degree. I imagine its the same for many others and the only real value in it is having the piece of paper its written on to wave in front of a recruiters face when applying for jobs. Its just a tick box.

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:43 - Feb 5 with 3365 viewsProfessor

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:29 - Feb 5 by Lohengrin

I made the point on here a little while back that the demise of the Secondary Modern, with its heavy emphasis on trade skills, was a disaster for the nation. When you hear idle talk from politicians about the skills deficit I find myself wondering are they completely incapable of calculating cause and effect?

As far as university goes, what are we hoping to achieve? If funding is finite then surely it has to be properly and formally focused? What is essential, Prof, by your reckoning? Maths, Science, Engineering and Medicine, in no particular order would be my recommendation for prioritisation. Identify the brightest and best and fully fund their progression toward graduation. These are the people and those are the disciplines that safeguard tomorrow.


Largely yes-I agree with what you say. Funding is of course an issue. Someone has to pay-either the student, the tax payer or both (which is the case for clinical degrees). The example that springs to mind are Biomedical Scientists or Medical Lab Scientific Officers (MLSO) is past times. Most MLSOs went from 'O' or more usually 'A' level and trained and learned via day release both the practical and theoretical parts of the job via ONC, HNC then the special 'two part fellowship" which was a Masters level qualification. Now it is graduate entry, yet it still relatively poorly-paid. Most undertake an MSc to get promotion. Most professions relating to medicine have done the same including nursing. I am not convinced this is any advantage. The HNC/HND is a forgotten qualification. The expectation is a degree, but what does it mean?
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:43 - Feb 5 with 3361 viewspikeypaul

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:29 - Feb 5 by Lohengrin

I made the point on here a little while back that the demise of the Secondary Modern, with its heavy emphasis on trade skills, was a disaster for the nation. When you hear idle talk from politicians about the skills deficit I find myself wondering are they completely incapable of calculating cause and effect?

As far as university goes, what are we hoping to achieve? If funding is finite then surely it has to be properly and formally focused? What is essential, Prof, by your reckoning? Maths, Science, Engineering and Medicine, in no particular order would be my recommendation for prioritisation. Identify the brightest and best and fully fund their progression toward graduation. These are the people and those are the disciplines that safeguard tomorrow.


But funding is not finite if you believe Corbyn.

Or was abolishing fees another of his dreams and not actually policy?

Like him giving a clean slate to the people who still have not paid back their loans.

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:47 - Feb 5 with 3350 viewsmonmouth

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:31 - Feb 5 by PozuelosSideys

Meh

Many degrees are worthwhile. Maths, Sciences etc. The core stuff. The fluffy stuff, less so. There should be far more vocational stuff going around. Why more people don't do engineering over the likes of arts and media etc is beyond me.

Tbh, I got very little value out of my degree. I imagine its the same for many others and the only real value in it is having the piece of paper its written on to wave in front of a recruiters face when applying for jobs. Its just a tick box.


Indeed. It has now become a commodity. If you don't have a 2:1 in something now it is the eqivalent of not having A levels in 1977.

The big issue for me is the lack of academic rigour, not the subject. University used to be a place where you learned to think, evaluate, analyse, synthesise ideas. Now it is spoon feeding of the masses or getting Chinese students to repeat back to you what you tell them or to process numbers (they like doing that). And this is in a major Russell Group that demand A*AA on entry.

It breaks my heart what governments since the 1960s have done to our whole education system and how the current lot of brain dead zombies are intent on doing to our universities by turning them into fat cat businesses run, by tossers, for tossers.

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:53 - Feb 5 with 3334 viewsProfessor

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:43 - Feb 5 by pikeypaul

But funding is not finite if you believe Corbyn.

Or was abolishing fees another of his dreams and not actually policy?

Like him giving a clean slate to the people who still have not paid back their loans.


Someone has to fund it-either has to be through taxation or a fee.
[Post edited 5 Feb 2018 14:54]
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:58 - Feb 5 with 3317 viewsperchrockjack

Pikey
There are many reasons why " ordinary families" should have contempt for Corbyn but his usage of young people to further his powerless takes primary place .

He is promising the impossible but it's done in such a way as to be believable ( for them)


Without doubt ,the most venal politician in my lifetime ,completely without shame or moral compass.

t least many Tories don't hide their contempt for. " ordinary families" the most insulting phrase of our lifetime .

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:00 - Feb 5 with 3317 viewsProfessor

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:47 - Feb 5 by monmouth

Indeed. It has now become a commodity. If you don't have a 2:1 in something now it is the eqivalent of not having A levels in 1977.

The big issue for me is the lack of academic rigour, not the subject. University used to be a place where you learned to think, evaluate, analyse, synthesise ideas. Now it is spoon feeding of the masses or getting Chinese students to repeat back to you what you tell them or to process numbers (they like doing that). And this is in a major Russell Group that demand A*AA on entry.

It breaks my heart what governments since the 1960s have done to our whole education system and how the current lot of brain dead zombies are intent on doing to our universities by turning them into fat cat businesses run, by tossers, for tossers.


Yes-tell me about it. All lectures recorded. Presentations available 48h in advance. Have to meet students at drop of a hat. Assessment watered down. No requirement to read and certainly not the primary research we had to in the 1980s even. No discussion or need to evaluate of synthesise anything. Just an extension of A levels now.
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:02 - Feb 5 with 3315 viewsProfessor

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:58 - Feb 5 by perchrockjack

Pikey
There are many reasons why " ordinary families" should have contempt for Corbyn but his usage of young people to further his powerless takes primary place .

He is promising the impossible but it's done in such a way as to be believable ( for them)


Without doubt ,the most venal politician in my lifetime ,completely without shame or moral compass.

t least many Tories don't hide their contempt for. " ordinary families" the most insulting phrase of our lifetime .


Oddly-removal of fees support the richest more than poor families. The idea that fees should be charged was largely an independent suggestion.
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:02 - Feb 5 with 3312 viewsgadgetuk

I went to uni for a couple of years, got very drunk, and left with no degree. Part of the reason for not completing was finding out that the chance of getting a job in the field I wanted to work in with that degree was roughly 1%

It also didn't help that I was not in the right mindset to go to uni, tbh I felt that I had to go.

I then pretty much did any job that paid enough to keep a roof over my head. I am fortunate that I got into a great career, which pays extremely well. My qualifications were obtained "on the job" and carry more weight than most degrees in this particular field of expertise.

We have got to move away from the mindset that everyone and his dog should go to university. Should never have gotten rid of polytechnics.
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:03 - Feb 5 with 3312 viewsmonmouth

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:43 - Feb 5 by Professor

Largely yes-I agree with what you say. Funding is of course an issue. Someone has to pay-either the student, the tax payer or both (which is the case for clinical degrees). The example that springs to mind are Biomedical Scientists or Medical Lab Scientific Officers (MLSO) is past times. Most MLSOs went from 'O' or more usually 'A' level and trained and learned via day release both the practical and theoretical parts of the job via ONC, HNC then the special 'two part fellowship" which was a Masters level qualification. Now it is graduate entry, yet it still relatively poorly-paid. Most undertake an MSc to get promotion. Most professions relating to medicine have done the same including nursing. I am not convinced this is any advantage. The HNC/HND is a forgotten qualification. The expectation is a degree, but what does it mean?


Just to add, my wife is a nurse trained on a ward just before degrees became the order of the day. She took the BSc later and laughs at the idea that it contributed anything to her nursing capability, or that it could in any way compensate for missing the 'old' training methods.

For me, the answer is simple. As is common just about everywhere, we had it and chucked it away in the name of some half wit's idea of 'progress'. Universities, Polys, Techs and Work Based Apprenticeships all fulfilling different roles in different markets, with far less people in genuinely higher education funded by the taxpayer for the future benefit of the taxpayer and progeny. Then we can cut down on utterly meaningless degree courses too that add nothing to life, like media studies.

An interesting recent development was that a Big 4 recruitment partner and the HR director of a big bank both told me recently that they are now targeting talented 6th formers as they think they can do a better job than a university of educating their employees. Not sure about that personally, but it might well become increasingly the direction of travel for employers and young people. Miss out the loan and the increasingly meaningless bit of paper where everyone gets a 2:1 or above (65% of students now I believe).

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:09 - Feb 5 with 3288 viewsperchrockjack

Brilliant thread gentlemen .

Great to see


I accept that premise ,Prof, by the way

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:10 - Feb 5 with 3288 viewsPozuelosSideys

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:03 - Feb 5 by monmouth

Just to add, my wife is a nurse trained on a ward just before degrees became the order of the day. She took the BSc later and laughs at the idea that it contributed anything to her nursing capability, or that it could in any way compensate for missing the 'old' training methods.

For me, the answer is simple. As is common just about everywhere, we had it and chucked it away in the name of some half wit's idea of 'progress'. Universities, Polys, Techs and Work Based Apprenticeships all fulfilling different roles in different markets, with far less people in genuinely higher education funded by the taxpayer for the future benefit of the taxpayer and progeny. Then we can cut down on utterly meaningless degree courses too that add nothing to life, like media studies.

An interesting recent development was that a Big 4 recruitment partner and the HR director of a big bank both told me recently that they are now targeting talented 6th formers as they think they can do a better job than a university of educating their employees. Not sure about that personally, but it might well become increasingly the direction of travel for employers and young people. Miss out the loan and the increasingly meaningless bit of paper where everyone gets a 2:1 or above (65% of students now I believe).


I know this to be true, at least to the extent that businesses are going down this line . Maybe not for super high paid/talented stuff like Investment Banking or Traders, but definitely for more of the serious back office stuff like Finance/HR/Compliance etc. The Universities just don't teach the required skillset for a number of roles.

Theres a guy working with me. 24 years old, recent mathematics graduate, highly intelligent guy. But hes been moaning from day 1 that his degree hasn't helped him do this job one bit. Its a financial role, and not once in the 3 years did they even attempt to teach something as basic as excel - youd think they would do that on a maths course, right? Much like many of us, hes learned more in a year of the job than his entire time as a student. Corporates are effectively taking on the role of 'super YTS' these days

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:12 - Feb 5 with 3282 viewsmonmouth

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:00 - Feb 5 by Professor

Yes-tell me about it. All lectures recorded. Presentations available 48h in advance. Have to meet students at drop of a hat. Assessment watered down. No requirement to read and certainly not the primary research we had to in the 1980s even. No discussion or need to evaluate of synthesise anything. Just an extension of A levels now.


You sound as frustrated as me! I tell you what should concern us all. The hordes of genuinely poorly educated (in the proper sense of the word) young men and women that we are churning out with their 2:1s are the next generation of 'professionals' including teachers. If I had grandkids or was relying on these people to fund my future and generate prosperity, I would find that a rather alarming prospect.

And, yes I realise having basically called a shedload of people poorly educated, I have or will make a host of spelling or grammatical errors.

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:16 - Feb 5 with 3270 viewsperchrockjack

IT could also be said that going to inu is simply prolonging your school days .

My daughter, bless her, couldn't wait to leave and work from day one . No interest in getting pisssed for three/ four years not for that waste of time...backpacking.

Kids need to have confidence in themselves to make their own way on the world and that the said world owes them nothing,whether they have a degree or not.

I have so much respect for youngsters to get stuck in early in their working life

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:18 - Feb 5 with 3262 viewsmonmouth

Let me balance it by saying that some students are absolutely bloody excellent. Breathtaking in fact. The ones that really want to be there and really want to push themselves to learn. In essence the only ones that should be there.

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:21 - Feb 5 with 3249 viewsperchrockjack

Indeed money.

I believe university should be for exceptional talent and often it's not the case .

It's not fair on kids actually

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:40 - Feb 5 with 3210 viewsProfessor

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:18 - Feb 5 by monmouth

Let me balance it by saying that some students are absolutely bloody excellent. Breathtaking in fact. The ones that really want to be there and really want to push themselves to learn. In essence the only ones that should be there.


Many are, and I largely get to teach the better ones like Bets and Medics, but many of the
Biologists I teach are surprisingly weak. The concept that university is for training the
Mind is going and increasingly the degree is a commodity that is bought. There are now so many people studying for a degree that this is inevitable I feel. I want good
Education but it needs to be appropriate
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:45 - Feb 5 with 3203 viewswaynekerr55

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:40 - Feb 5 by Professor

Many are, and I largely get to teach the better ones like Bets and Medics, but many of the
Biologists I teach are surprisingly weak. The concept that university is for training the
Mind is going and increasingly the degree is a commodity that is bought. There are now so many people studying for a degree that this is inevitable I feel. I want good
Education but it needs to be appropriate


Therein lies the problem. A numbers game that is catching up.

Out of interest prof has your uni compelled you to take the HEA fellowships?

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 16:18 - Feb 5 with 3160 viewsCooperman

I have an employee that is recently out of his time. Over the course of the last five years he has successfully completed his apprenticeship, remained debt free, gained invaluable hands on experience in a technical field and risen to a very decent wage for a twenty two year old. The next step is a part time bridging course to attain degree status. Meanwhile his mates are typically racking up debt and couldn’t explain six sigma concepts even if their life depended on it. It’s been hard work for him but I told him from day one that it’s most definitely no pain no gain.
[Post edited 5 Feb 2018 18:12]

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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 17:12 - Feb 5 with 3082 viewslondonlisa2001

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 14:47 - Feb 5 by monmouth

Indeed. It has now become a commodity. If you don't have a 2:1 in something now it is the eqivalent of not having A levels in 1977.

The big issue for me is the lack of academic rigour, not the subject. University used to be a place where you learned to think, evaluate, analyse, synthesise ideas. Now it is spoon feeding of the masses or getting Chinese students to repeat back to you what you tell them or to process numbers (they like doing that). And this is in a major Russell Group that demand A*AA on entry.

It breaks my heart what governments since the 1960s have done to our whole education system and how the current lot of brain dead zombies are intent on doing to our universities by turning them into fat cat businesses run, by tossers, for tossers.


"The big issue for me is the lack of academic rigour, not the subject. University used to be a place where you learned to think, evaluate, analyse, synthesise ideas. Now it is spoon feeding of the masses or getting Chinese students to repeat back to you what you tell them or to process numbers (they like doing that). And this is in a major Russell Group that demand A*AA on entry. "

This!

Outside certain subjects (largely the sciences), it really didn't matter what subject you studied in university, as it was designed to train you to think. Now it's just designed to train you to remember and regurgitate. Which is why graduates are far less useful in the workplace than they used to be, as unless they've actually been taught an answer, they often don't know how to go about finding one.

It's going to become like the States before much longer, where an undergraduate degree has just become an extension of school and it's only a masters or higher which replicates what university used to be about.
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 17:14 - Feb 5 with 3075 viewslondonlisa2001

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:03 - Feb 5 by monmouth

Just to add, my wife is a nurse trained on a ward just before degrees became the order of the day. She took the BSc later and laughs at the idea that it contributed anything to her nursing capability, or that it could in any way compensate for missing the 'old' training methods.

For me, the answer is simple. As is common just about everywhere, we had it and chucked it away in the name of some half wit's idea of 'progress'. Universities, Polys, Techs and Work Based Apprenticeships all fulfilling different roles in different markets, with far less people in genuinely higher education funded by the taxpayer for the future benefit of the taxpayer and progeny. Then we can cut down on utterly meaningless degree courses too that add nothing to life, like media studies.

An interesting recent development was that a Big 4 recruitment partner and the HR director of a big bank both told me recently that they are now targeting talented 6th formers as they think they can do a better job than a university of educating their employees. Not sure about that personally, but it might well become increasingly the direction of travel for employers and young people. Miss out the loan and the increasingly meaningless bit of paper where everyone gets a 2:1 or above (65% of students now I believe).


EY were at the forefront of starting this a few years ago and it's working well for them.
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 17:20 - Feb 5 with 3082 viewsProfessor

Not all degrees worthwhile? on 15:45 - Feb 5 by waynekerr55

Therein lies the problem. A numbers game that is catching up.

Out of interest prof has your uni compelled you to take the HEA fellowships?


It is coming. Will give a full opinion on this later but is all process and paperwork and leads to one size fits all assessment and poor content. Like in school
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Not all degrees worthwhile? on 18:12 - Feb 5 with 3011 viewsmax936

My lad has got a degree in International Relations and Politics its served him well as he has now attained a career with the Home Office as a Border Control Officer post at Gatwick, 700+ applied for 70 positions, University has served him well and a bit of luck without doubt.

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