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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 11:31 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
I gave you an example of how it would work, a bit like the Swiss border only we wouldn't be in Schengen.
Switzerland has a free movemet agreement with the EU. And is land locked.
You really think the ease of passage over back country/alpine lanes between France and Switzerland has any relevance to the errection of effective customs controls necessitated by the givernment's insistance on an exit from the EU customs union?
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 11:51 - Mar 1 by Batterseajack
Norway model: Member of European Economic Area, full access to single market, obliged to make a financial contribution and accept majority of EU laws, free movement applies as it does in the EU.
Couple of red lines crossed there, try again
Whose red lines? The EUs?
The reason why different models exist is because the EU has had to make compromises in the past and so they will have to make compromises on Brexit. It is their responsibility to the ROI .
If EU rules mean that the Good Friday agreement is compromised either the EU will have have to compromise on their rules or the Good Friday agreement will have to be amended AT THE BEHEST OF THE EU.
The UK will not have a gun put to our head by the EU to try and force us to stay in in all but name, and nor should we.
The fact that the EU is trying to pull this shit and insist that the democratic will of the British people to leave is disrespected should tell everybody what is so wrong about this institution and , ultimately, why it is failing.
If there is no demos and the people in power have no democratic accountability, then there is no consequences. That is why again and again the EU runs roughshod over democracy and refuses to compromise, they don't feel the need to.
This time will be different. They want to annexe Ireland rather than compromise? "You and whose army?"
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:06 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
Whose red lines? The EUs?
The reason why different models exist is because the EU has had to make compromises in the past and so they will have to make compromises on Brexit. It is their responsibility to the ROI .
If EU rules mean that the Good Friday agreement is compromised either the EU will have have to compromise on their rules or the Good Friday agreement will have to be amended AT THE BEHEST OF THE EU.
The UK will not have a gun put to our head by the EU to try and force us to stay in in all but name, and nor should we.
The fact that the EU is trying to pull this shit and insist that the democratic will of the British people to leave is disrespected should tell everybody what is so wrong about this institution and , ultimately, why it is failing.
If there is no demos and the people in power have no democratic accountability, then there is no consequences. That is why again and again the EU runs roughshod over democracy and refuses to compromise, they don't feel the need to.
This time will be different. They want to annexe Ireland rather than compromise? "You and whose army?"
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:06 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
Whose red lines? The EUs?
The reason why different models exist is because the EU has had to make compromises in the past and so they will have to make compromises on Brexit. It is their responsibility to the ROI .
If EU rules mean that the Good Friday agreement is compromised either the EU will have have to compromise on their rules or the Good Friday agreement will have to be amended AT THE BEHEST OF THE EU.
The UK will not have a gun put to our head by the EU to try and force us to stay in in all but name, and nor should we.
The fact that the EU is trying to pull this shit and insist that the democratic will of the British people to leave is disrespected should tell everybody what is so wrong about this institution and , ultimately, why it is failing.
If there is no demos and the people in power have no democratic accountability, then there is no consequences. That is why again and again the EU runs roughshod over democracy and refuses to compromise, they don't feel the need to.
This time will be different. They want to annexe Ireland rather than compromise? "You and whose army?"
Norway model: Member of European Economic Area, full access to single market, obliged to make a financial contribution and accept majority of EU laws, free movement applies as it does in the EU.
Red line 1 : Accepting majority of EU rules even though we won't be at the table to create them . See JRM and "vassal state".
Red Line 2: Accepting freedom of movement.
Red line 3: Paying money into the EU. You said earlier today how paying in now is a reason to leave.
To address your rant, WTO rules mean we need to put up borders, so by leaving the EU, we need borders. The good Friday agreement was effective in 1999 when both the UK and ROI were in the EU and no border was necessary. We have now decided to leave the EU so a border will now need to be put in place. It is not good enough to say, oh but we don't want to monitor any goods coming into our country from Ireland so this is an EU problem, because that is bullsh!t.
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:20]
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:19 - Mar 1 with 777 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 11:54 - Mar 1 by Shaky
Switzerland has a free movemet agreement with the EU. And is land locked.
You really think the ease of passage over back country/alpine lanes between France and Switzerland has any relevance to the errection of effective customs controls necessitated by the givernment's insistance on an exit from the EU customs union?
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:18 - Mar 1 by Batterseajack
Norway model: Member of European Economic Area, full access to single market, obliged to make a financial contribution and accept majority of EU laws, free movement applies as it does in the EU.
Red line 1 : Accepting majority of EU rules even though we won't be at the table to create them . See JRM and "vassal state".
Red Line 2: Accepting freedom of movement.
Red line 3: Paying money into the EU. You said earlier today how paying in now is a reason to leave.
To address your rant, WTO rules mean we need to put up borders, so by leaving the EU, we need borders. The good Friday agreement was effective in 1999 when both the UK and ROI were in the EU and no border was necessary. We have now decided to leave the EU so a border will now need to be put in place. It is not good enough to say, oh but we don't want to monitor any goods coming into our country from Ireland so this is an EU problem, because that is bullsh!t.
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:20]
"We have now decided to leave the EU so a border will now need to be put in place. It is not good enough to say, oh but we don't want to monitor any goods coming into our country from Ireland so this is an EU problem, because that is bullsh!t."
We do not require a hard border. The end.
If it is a problem it is a problem of the EU's own making. It is the EU that is "not good enough".
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:19 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
NI is still part of the UK last I checked.
It is for now. but spare us the tosh about the democratic will of the people.
The simple fact is that exiting the EU customs union is incompatible with the UK position on the irish border.
And the reason the tory government is getting so hysterical about this is that real life practical solutions will require some limitation of sovereignty, and they fear this broadcasts and confirms the UKs diminished status in a post-Brexit world.
The response to the Northern Ireland situation from Brexiteers appears to be to just shout 'they have to sort it out'.
I've yet to see any solution proposed that doesn't break the 'red lines', the reality that Ireland is an EU member state, or the Good Friday agreement.
I don't mean one that will be accepted. I mean anything.
As the only possible solution is that the UK remains in, in all but name. Which is what will happen. For all sorts of reasons, not just this one. What a farce.
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:34 - Mar 1 with 754 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:29 - Mar 1 by londonlisa2001
The response to the Northern Ireland situation from Brexiteers appears to be to just shout 'they have to sort it out'.
I've yet to see any solution proposed that doesn't break the 'red lines', the reality that Ireland is an EU member state, or the Good Friday agreement.
I don't mean one that will be accepted. I mean anything.
As the only possible solution is that the UK remains in, in all but name. Which is what will happen. For all sorts of reasons, not just this one. What a farce.
"La, la la, it will be easy, stop being a bunch of whinging remoaners' not a good enough solution then Lisa?
It is a farce. Totally predictable, which makes it even more of one.
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:36 - Mar 1 with 751 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:24 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
"We have now decided to leave the EU so a border will now need to be put in place. It is not good enough to say, oh but we don't want to monitor any goods coming into our country from Ireland so this is an EU problem, because that is bullsh!t."
We do not require a hard border. The end.
If it is a problem it is a problem of the EU's own making. It is the EU that is "not good enough".
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:24]
We have obligations under WTO to have secure borders with all countries we don't have a free trading relationship with. But to have a free trade with the EU, we must become a vassal state and accept their rules and regs and have no say on the matter.
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:24 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
"We have now decided to leave the EU so a border will now need to be put in place. It is not good enough to say, oh but we don't want to monitor any goods coming into our country from Ireland so this is an EU problem, because that is bullsh!t."
We do not require a hard border. The end.
If it is a problem it is a problem of the EU's own making. It is the EU that is "not good enough".
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:24]
The issue over a lack of border isn't the EU's problem.
It's the Brexiteers' problem.
Because if there is no border, there is free movement of people and free movement of goods. Surely you get that?
The only way of stopping those things is to have a border. Which we can't do.
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:39 - Mar 1 with 746 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:34 - Mar 1 by LeonWasGod
"La, la la, it will be easy, stop being a bunch of whinging remoaners' not a good enough solution then Lisa?
It is a farce. Totally predictable, which makes it even more of one.
And the government appear to be hoping that the sheer passage of time will somehow solve it when they know damn well it won't.
Someone needs to get Rees Mogg on the TV and ask him to solve it without breaking his own red lines, give him as long as he needs. And when he can't, tell him to shut up about it from now on. Any aspect of it.
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:44 - Mar 1 with 734 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:44 - Mar 1 by londonlisa2001
It breaks the Good Friday agreement that we signed up to.
That's the whole point.
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned electronic borders yet. But i think technology that doesn't yet exist yet, or at least is in its infancy, will come along and save the day.
Edit: Replied to the wrong post
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:46]
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:49 - Mar 1 with 718 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:45 - Mar 1 by Batterseajack
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned electronic borders yet. But i think technology that doesn't yet exist yet, or at least is in its infancy, will come along and save the day.
Edit: Replied to the wrong post
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:46]
I don't think it's the method of border control, but the existence of it that's the issue.
There has to be free trade and movement of people between Northern Ireland and Ireland. There has to be free trade and movement of people between Ireland and EU. There has to be free trade and movement of people between Northern Ireland and GB, ergo...
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:50 - Mar 1 with 717 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:45 - Mar 1 by Batterseajack
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned electronic borders yet. But i think technology that doesn't yet exist yet, or at least is in its infancy, will come along and save the day.
Edit: Replied to the wrong post
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 12:46]
Even if available, electronic tagging solutions presuppose good faith.
However, it is one of the fundamental objectives of customs and border controls to conduct checks to control illegal imports and exports.
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:36 - Mar 1 by Batterseajack
We have obligations under WTO to have secure borders with all countries we don't have a free trading relationship with. But to have a free trade with the EU, we must become a vassal state and accept their rules and regs and have no say on the matter.
If the only options are; 1 - Stay in and be dictated to or 2 - Leave and be dictated to
there really is little difference, and ask yourself for a second why you support such an entity?
I have said from the beginning that we should not be pretending to be friendly with the EU and giving them the luxury of the theatre of negotiations.
We should be leaving on a 'no deal' and in the meantime we should be busy tearing the f*cker down. Talking, both in public and private, to dissenting governments and political parties in individual nation states who are anti-EU. We could cause the EU a massive problem in Italy if our leaders grow a pair...unfortunately we have the remainers in this country plotting with the EU and coming up with the recent bollocks on N. Ireland.
Was obviously coordinated.
Tony Blair, John Major etc. WAKE UP, YOU LOST! ...and you'd lose again. The EU loses whenever it is on the ballot paper, that's why the likes of Macron in the French presidential election have to lie to the voters that they are cynics and reformers when it comes to the EU...then afterwards the result is hailed as some sort of EU victory! Truly laughable.
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 12:50 - Mar 1 by Shaky
Even if available, electronic tagging solutions presuppose good faith.
However, it is one of the fundamental objectives of customs and border controls to conduct checks to control illegal imports and exports.
Do you think that all goods outside the EU, traded around the World, are inspected at a border checkpoint?
There are trusted traders and spot checks on about 5% of goods crossing borders. Whether you check them at a border or at their end destination is up to the customs officers.
If the EU operated it's borders in the way you suggest are necessary for N. Ireland how do you think people and goods are already smuggled into the EU illegally?
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 13:04 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
I know what the EU is thanks.
If the only options are; 1 - Stay in and be dictated to or 2 - Leave and be dictated to
there really is little difference, and ask yourself for a second why you support such an entity?
I have said from the beginning that we should not be pretending to be friendly with the EU and giving them the luxury of the theatre of negotiations.
We should be leaving on a 'no deal' and in the meantime we should be busy tearing the f*cker down. Talking, both in public and private, to dissenting governments and political parties in individual nation states who are anti-EU. We could cause the EU a massive problem in Italy if our leaders grow a pair...unfortunately we have the remainers in this country plotting with the EU and coming up with the recent bollocks on N. Ireland.
Was obviously coordinated.
Tony Blair, John Major etc. WAKE UP, YOU LOST! ...and you'd lose again. The EU loses whenever it is on the ballot paper, that's why the likes of Macron in the French presidential election have to lie to the voters that they are cynics and reformers when it comes to the EU...then afterwards the result is hailed as some sort of EU victory! Truly laughable.
It's not recent bollocks about NI. It was mentioned at the time but leavers just shouted "project fear" over and over.
Now they actually have to work something out. And they can't. Just as was predicted.
[Post edited 1 Mar 2018 16:26]
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Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 13:22 - Mar 1 with 684 views
Is the EU trying to give the UK an agreement they can't accept? on 13:04 - Mar 1 by Kerouac
I know what the EU is thanks.
If the only options are; 1 - Stay in and be dictated to or 2 - Leave and be dictated to
there really is little difference, and ask yourself for a second why you support such an entity?
I have said from the beginning that we should not be pretending to be friendly with the EU and giving them the luxury of the theatre of negotiations.
We should be leaving on a 'no deal' and in the meantime we should be busy tearing the f*cker down. Talking, both in public and private, to dissenting governments and political parties in individual nation states who are anti-EU. We could cause the EU a massive problem in Italy if our leaders grow a pair...unfortunately we have the remainers in this country plotting with the EU and coming up with the recent bollocks on N. Ireland.
Was obviously coordinated.
Tony Blair, John Major etc. WAKE UP, YOU LOST! ...and you'd lose again. The EU loses whenever it is on the ballot paper, that's why the likes of Macron in the French presidential election have to lie to the voters that they are cynics and reformers when it comes to the EU...then afterwards the result is hailed as some sort of EU victory! Truly laughable.
So your solution is leave without a deal and be as difficult as possible.
Terrific,
Disaster to our economy, disaster to jobs, but at least we showed them who's boss.
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