| Audited Accounts are now out 12:04 - Mar 13 with 28523 views | Shaky |
For club: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00123414/filing-history
For holding company: https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/04305508/filing-history
Will try to find time to crunch the numbers later, but quick glimpse shows the huge increase in operating costs is all substantially down to staff costs.
As I said previously, it is hard to imagine how even the lions share can be attibutable to the playing staff given the departures.
What is certain is the for example Peralman' s salary is lumped in there, and potentally also some kind of remuneration for the US property developer on the board of the parent company. How much is attributable to this remains unclear, however.
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:05 - Mar 17 with 2935 views | theloneranger |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:33 - Mar 17 by WarwickHunt |
*adds popcorn to shopping list* |
"Adds"....  |  |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:45 - Mar 17 with 2898 views | WarwickHunt |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:05 - Mar 17 by theloneranger |
"Adds".... |
Despite being low in calories it fills a hole... |  | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:10 - Mar 17 with 2872 views | max936 |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:48 - Mar 17 by QJumpingJack |
The Trust Director is an accountant.
Does he have a view on these accounts? |
Doubt it, he's still perfecting his smile to greet Steve and Jas next time they're over.  |  |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 15:41 - Mar 17 with 2825 views | E20Jack |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:04 - Mar 17 by Shaky |
Let's hope Lisa has the good sense to go away and reflect seriously on this, rather than sling more mud at me in a vain attempt to cover up the glaring holes in her own skills. The cheeky fcuking cow. |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 17:09 - Mar 17 with 2791 views | DJack |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:45 - Mar 17 by WarwickHunt |
Despite being low in calories it fills a hole... |
... Are you still talking about popcorn or shouldn't I ask?  |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 00:44 - Mar 19 with 2702 views | swan65split |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 01:47 - Mar 17 by theloneranger |
I remember that train trip home with TM, a brilliant night.
A certain incident on that train will only be known to the people who were there 
The following week I spent a brilliant day and evening with TM drinking in the Mermaid in the Mumbles.
He decided he wanted me to take imaginary pens against him in the bar. After diving left and right, he told me he had saved 12 pens on the trot.
I was abs gutted, lost all my confidence and have never taken another penalty!!
RIP TM ....... Played football with a smile on your face |
well we must have met at some stage, as I was with him in the bar and outside the loo 
and remember well a comment he made to me, he used to sit with me and the wife some nights in our local,, another famous story is about his Jag. |  | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 09:02 - Mar 19 with 2643 views | Devz00 |
https://www.insidermedia.com/insider/wales/36.9m-player-sales-put-swans-back-in-
Club chairman Huw Jenkins wrote: "The 2016-l7 season proved to be a difï¬cult season and the directors made the difï¬cult decision to replace the football management team on two occasions, appointing Paul Clement and his team in January 2017 who then guided the team to a 15th place ï¬nish.
"We have continued to invest in the playing squad both at senior and academy level. We are also very pleased to report our Under 23 team were crowned Premier League 2 Division 2 winners and have gained promotion to Premier League 2 Division l for the 2017/18 season.
"The under 23’s also won the Premier League Cup defeating Reading FC in the ï¬nal and reached the semi-ï¬nal of the Premier League International Cup losing to the eventual winners FC Porto.
"Turnover for the year was £127.8m compared with £97.2m for the previous year. Total operating costs, including player amortisation costs of £24.2m, amounted to £150.8m compared with £117.6m for the previous year.
"A net decrease in cash of £12.7m has occurred in the year. This is as a result of net cash inflows from operating activities of £9.9m, offset by net cash from investing activities of £31.3m. £54.6m was spent investing in the playing squad.
"This investment was to some extent leveraged by the receivables on certain disposals, for which cash proceeds totalled £27.1m in the year. A proï¬t of £36.9m on the sale of players was achieved which has resulted in a proï¬t before tax of £13.3m for the year." [Post edited 19 Mar 2018 9:03]
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| Genetically, paedophiles have more genes in common with crabs than they do with you and me. Now that is scientific fact. There's no real evidence for it, but it is scientific fact. |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 09:36 - Mar 19 with 2608 views | Uxbridge |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:10 - Mar 17 by max936 |
Doubt it, he's still perfecting his smile to greet Steve and Jas next time they're over. |
In fairness, it's not as if he gives his view of the monthly management accounts in every set of Trust board meeting minutes is it.
Fun thread though. I was going to pop in around Page 5 and give some context to the historic reasons behind the current, pretty illogical IMO, accounting treatment of player contracts, but I didn't want to disturb. |  |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:18 - Mar 19 with 2560 views | Shaky |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 09:36 - Mar 19 by Uxbridge |
In fairness, it's not as if he gives his view of the monthly management accounts in every set of Trust board meeting minutes is it.
Fun thread though. I was going to pop in around Page 5 and give some context to the historic reasons behind the current, pretty illogical IMO, accounting treatment of player contracts, but I didn't want to disturb. |
I'd like to hear you views.
FWIW I think the case for significant hidden reserves in player valuations is nowhere as compelling as you appear to suggest you believe.
* Specifically in the case of Swansea's squad/
* In a potentially now falling market if the turn lower in TV revenue is real
* When a player with only 1 year remaining has very little resale value due to the risk of leaving on a free transfer. | |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:52 - Mar 19 with 2520 views | Uxbridge |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:18 - Mar 19 by Shaky |
I'd like to hear you views.
FWIW I think the case for significant hidden reserves in player valuations is nowhere as compelling as you appear to suggest you believe.
* Specifically in the case of Swansea's squad/
* In a potentially now falling market if the turn lower in TV revenue is real
* When a player with only 1 year remaining has very little resale value due to the risk of leaving on a free transfer. |
Not quite what I said in fairness. I just think the current valuation method is a bit bonkers, and the Swans is a particularly good example of that. Mawson is probably our most saleable asset and is probably worth upwards of £25m on the open market. However we recognise him as probably half the £5m we paid Barnsley for him. On the flip side I expect Borja is recognised at several times more that value, but we'd be lucky to get £2.50 and a bag of chips for him (especially after this season).
Logically though, I'd say player valuations must be significantly understated. The market has only gone up (and I don't see that TV revenues are going down anytime soon - domestic may stagnate but International will only go up) and, unless the squad is entirely populated by duffers (rather than just the majority), the value of £69m as at 31st July was surely understated.
Not that I care particularly much, and I'd far rather the situation was treated prudently than previous accounting rules that gave much more flexibility. Coincidentally I think the current valuation is probably a fair "worst case" estimate and that's good enough for me.
As for the rest, once again there are red flags around our wage bill which is simply unsustainable in the long term. I know there have been moves to get rid of some of the long-term playing staff deadwood but more needs to be done. Our cashflow position, as has been mentioned plenty of times in recent years, remains an area of concern.
As has been said elsewhere, if we are to be successful our model is clear. Buy cheap, sell high, reinvest, repeat. We need a high profile win on that score at least once every other season, or more frequently if we're going to do well or cover for some high profile missteps. Fail to do that and we get into the hole we've been in in recent seasons.
Going to be a very challenging summer whatever happens in terms of our PL status I suspect. Either way, the playing squad needs a significant overhaul and we need to ensure there is some joined up thinking between player management and recruitment (signs are that is finally happening). Problem is where is the money to fund that. I can't see how we achieve that without also cashing out on the likes of Mawson. And that's without thinking how we get rid of the likes of Routledge with little value and little interest. | |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:19 - Mar 19 with 2485 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:52 - Mar 19 by Uxbridge |
Not quite what I said in fairness. I just think the current valuation method is a bit bonkers, and the Swans is a particularly good example of that. Mawson is probably our most saleable asset and is probably worth upwards of £25m on the open market. However we recognise him as probably half the £5m we paid Barnsley for him. On the flip side I expect Borja is recognised at several times more that value, but we'd be lucky to get £2.50 and a bag of chips for him (especially after this season).
Logically though, I'd say player valuations must be significantly understated. The market has only gone up (and I don't see that TV revenues are going down anytime soon - domestic may stagnate but International will only go up) and, unless the squad is entirely populated by duffers (rather than just the majority), the value of £69m as at 31st July was surely understated.
Not that I care particularly much, and I'd far rather the situation was treated prudently than previous accounting rules that gave much more flexibility. Coincidentally I think the current valuation is probably a fair "worst case" estimate and that's good enough for me.
As for the rest, once again there are red flags around our wage bill which is simply unsustainable in the long term. I know there have been moves to get rid of some of the long-term playing staff deadwood but more needs to be done. Our cashflow position, as has been mentioned plenty of times in recent years, remains an area of concern.
As has been said elsewhere, if we are to be successful our model is clear. Buy cheap, sell high, reinvest, repeat. We need a high profile win on that score at least once every other season, or more frequently if we're going to do well or cover for some high profile missteps. Fail to do that and we get into the hole we've been in in recent seasons.
Going to be a very challenging summer whatever happens in terms of our PL status I suspect. Either way, the playing squad needs a significant overhaul and we need to ensure there is some joined up thinking between player management and recruitment (signs are that is finally happening). Problem is where is the money to fund that. I can't see how we achieve that without also cashing out on the likes of Mawson. And that's without thinking how we get rid of the likes of Routledge with little value and little interest. |
"On the flip side I expect Borja is recognised at several times more that value, but we'd be lucky to get £2.50 and a bag of chips for him (especially after this season). "
Under the terms of our stated accounting policy we will have had to take an impairment charge on him in these financial statements.
No longer available for the squad - tick (as he's on loan)
Decrease in valuation - tick (as he's crap).
The charges in these accounts are also distorted by us paying off two entire lots of management teams in that year. Guidolin's and Bradley's.
Agree with all you've said though. As I've also been trying to say. |  | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:37 - Mar 19 with 2463 views | theloneranger |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 00:44 - Mar 19 by swan65split |
well we must have met at some stage, as I was with him in the bar and outside the loo
and remember well a comment he made to me, he used to sit with me and the wife some nights in our local,, another famous story is about his Jag. |
The famous loo. 😇
I was also outside that loo. I had to pacify a certain person's brother. The longest 2 minutes of my life 😂😂 | |
| Everyday above ground ... Is a good day! 😎 |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:24 - Mar 19 with 2413 views | Shaky |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:52 - Mar 19 by Uxbridge |
Not quite what I said in fairness. I just think the current valuation method is a bit bonkers, and the Swans is a particularly good example of that. Mawson is probably our most saleable asset and is probably worth upwards of £25m on the open market. However we recognise him as probably half the £5m we paid Barnsley for him. On the flip side I expect Borja is recognised at several times more that value, but we'd be lucky to get £2.50 and a bag of chips for him (especially after this season).
Logically though, I'd say player valuations must be significantly understated. The market has only gone up (and I don't see that TV revenues are going down anytime soon - domestic may stagnate but International will only go up) and, unless the squad is entirely populated by duffers (rather than just the majority), the value of £69m as at 31st July was surely understated.
Not that I care particularly much, and I'd far rather the situation was treated prudently than previous accounting rules that gave much more flexibility. Coincidentally I think the current valuation is probably a fair "worst case" estimate and that's good enough for me.
As for the rest, once again there are red flags around our wage bill which is simply unsustainable in the long term. I know there have been moves to get rid of some of the long-term playing staff deadwood but more needs to be done. Our cashflow position, as has been mentioned plenty of times in recent years, remains an area of concern.
As has been said elsewhere, if we are to be successful our model is clear. Buy cheap, sell high, reinvest, repeat. We need a high profile win on that score at least once every other season, or more frequently if we're going to do well or cover for some high profile missteps. Fail to do that and we get into the hole we've been in in recent seasons.
Going to be a very challenging summer whatever happens in terms of our PL status I suspect. Either way, the playing squad needs a significant overhaul and we need to ensure there is some joined up thinking between player management and recruitment (signs are that is finally happening). Problem is where is the money to fund that. I can't see how we achieve that without also cashing out on the likes of Mawson. And that's without thinking how we get rid of the likes of Routledge with little value and little interest. |
I'm busy, but just one quick thought; historical cost is only prudent in a rising market.
We need to see where this goes, but yesterday I started to do a tiny bit of comparables analysis which I'll try to knock up perhaps over Easter if i have time, and that was very, very interesting. Some clubs like WBA are very prudently run indeed, wheras others like say West Ham look like they are about to go bust.
And that's with the current TV revenue environment, from which for example Seansea was unable to generate a profit as already noted..
My view is that this is potentially a house of cards. | |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:43 - Mar 19 with 2382 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:24 - Mar 19 by Shaky |
I'm busy, but just one quick thought; historical cost is only prudent in a rising market.
We need to see where this goes, but yesterday I started to do a tiny bit of comparables analysis which I'll try to knock up perhaps over Easter if i have time, and that was very, very interesting. Some clubs like WBA are very prudently run indeed, wheras others like say West Ham look like they are about to go bust.
And that's with the current TV revenue environment, from which for example Seansea was unable to generate a profit as already noted..
My view is that this is potentially a house of cards. |
Historical cost is prudent in any market when assets are never revalued up but are impaired down. | | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:02 - Mar 19 with 2355 views | Shaky |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:43 - Mar 19 by londonlisa2001 |
Historical cost is prudent in any market when assets are never revalued up but are impaired down. |
Possibly, but it depends on the methodology.
And reading the policy used it seems impairment is only recorded in the case of injury and potentially when on loan. | |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:04 - Mar 19 with 2349 views | Shaky |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:24 - Mar 19 by Shaky |
I'm busy, but just one quick thought; historical cost is only prudent in a rising market.
We need to see where this goes, but yesterday I started to do a tiny bit of comparables analysis which I'll try to knock up perhaps over Easter if i have time, and that was very, very interesting. Some clubs like WBA are very prudently run indeed, wheras others like say West Ham look like they are about to go bust.
And that's with the current TV revenue environment, from which for example Seansea was unable to generate a profit as already noted..
My view is that this is potentially a house of cards. |
. . .so I don't get accused of cherry picking, if anybody has any clubs they would specifically like me to look at please say so now.
And FWIW I only intend to look at clubs that are relevant as comparables. That rules out the big 6, newly promoted clubs, etc.
And I'm not going to do more than 5 maximum. | |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:19 - Mar 19 with 2330 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:02 - Mar 19 by Shaky |
Possibly, but it depends on the methodology.
And reading the policy used it seems impairment is only recorded in the case of injury and potentially when on loan. |
Or when a player has been subsequently (after the balance sheet) sold and wasn't in the team prior to the sale I think although the wording on that is not particularly clear. I can't really think of an example of that in this case.
The policy that they do adopt is why I suspect that Baston will have been impaired in the accounts here. Possibly Montero as well, although his carrying value would have been tiny anyway.
I | | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:24 - Mar 19 with 2320 views | Highjack |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:04 - Mar 19 by Shaky |
. . .so I don't get accused of cherry picking, if anybody has any clubs they would specifically like me to look at please say so now.
And FWIW I only intend to look at clubs that are relevant as comparables. That rules out the big 6, newly promoted clubs, etc.
And I'm not going to do more than 5 maximum. |
Can you do Kilmarnock please? |  |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:59 - Mar 19 with 2287 views | Uxbridge |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:24 - Mar 19 by Shaky |
I'm busy, but just one quick thought; historical cost is only prudent in a rising market.
We need to see where this goes, but yesterday I started to do a tiny bit of comparables analysis which I'll try to knock up perhaps over Easter if i have time, and that was very, very interesting. Some clubs like WBA are very prudently run indeed, wheras others like say West Ham look like they are about to go bust.
And that's with the current TV revenue environment, from which for example Seansea was unable to generate a profit as already noted..
My view is that this is potentially a house of cards. |
Course it is built on sand, in the long term at least, as is anything utterly dependent on a single income stream ... the TV deals usually span multiple years so unlikely to be a short, sharp shock. However I agree they'll have to peak at some point, maybe even come down. There are other markets though ... just look at what China are spending on bang average players. Not sure it's the biggest threat though ... relegation is the obvious one, as is the attempts of the Big 6/7 to take a bigger slice of the pie.
Always been a fan of the way WBA have run their club, under the previous regime at least. It'll be interesting to see how they react now. I'm hoping I get to see what happens to Wet Spam. | |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 15:10 - Mar 19 with 2245 views | magicdaps10 |
Can we stop about the accounts and find out what happened with Tony Millington in the Loo?!?! |  |
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| Audited Accounts are now out on 17:20 - Mar 19 with 2188 views | swan65split |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 11:37 - Mar 19 by theloneranger |
The famous loo. 😇
I was also outside that loo. I had to pacify a certain person's brother. The longest 2 minutes of my life 😂😂 |
Aye I remember that bit , so I must know who you are, but being it happened In the last century, faces are a bit foggy. kemosabe  | | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 17:22 - Mar 19 with 2184 views | swan65split |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 15:10 - Mar 19 by magicdaps10 |
Can we stop about the accounts and find out what happened with Tony Millington in the Loo?!?! |
Sorry I cannot be coached into saying, being from another age I have some standards and the need for respect for those that were there, as the saying goes , what happens on the train, stays on the train. | | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 19:57 - Mar 19 with 2111 views | QJumpingJack |
Are the accounts good news or bad news?
And are the Trust board across them/happy with the numbers? | | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 10:05 - Mar 20 with 1977 views | QJumpingJack |
I would recommend reading the Swiss Ramble on twitter. Some excellent analysis on the accounts. | | | |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 12:30 - Mar 20 with 1913 views | Shaky |
| Audited Accounts are now out on 13:59 - Mar 19 by Uxbridge |
Course it is built on sand, in the long term at least, as is anything utterly dependent on a single income stream ... the TV deals usually span multiple years so unlikely to be a short, sharp shock. However I agree they'll have to peak at some point, maybe even come down. There are other markets though ... just look at what China are spending on bang average players. Not sure it's the biggest threat though ... relegation is the obvious one, as is the attempts of the Big 6/7 to take a bigger slice of the pie.
Always been a fan of the way WBA have run their club, under the previous regime at least. It'll be interesting to see how they react now. I'm hoping I get to see what happens to Wet Spam. |
"unlikely to be a short, sharp shock"
It's an interesting one.
As I mentioned my quick look at the West Ham accounts shows a company that could pretty much go bust at any time. I don't know how much David Gold is worth but he has already lost a fair bit.
Certainly if they go down they look odds on to go bust in the absense of a new investor coming in to save the day.
And if that happens I am pretty sure there is a fair degree of systemic risk in the whole financing structure of the Premier League, given its likely heavy reliance on factoring among second tier clubs
I'll try to etimate this as far as possible, and it is frankly a huge mistake that Premier league clubs are not obliged to specifcially report factoring exposure in their accounts. The accounting rules are no doubt geared to bog standard trade financing of ordinary receivables of 30-60 days duration as opposed to long term receivables used in transfers. This is a huge mistake in my view.
As I see it if West Ham or some other second tier club heavily reliant on factoring goes bust the whole house of cards could collapse in maybe a few weeks. Like a meltdown caused by counterparty risk in the derivatives market. | |
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