| Irish abortion referendum 11:57 - May 24 with 11762 views | Lohengrin |
Been busy of late so haven’t been on here, checking in today I was a bit surprised to see there was no thread in advance of the ballot.
How do you think it will go tomorrow, will the Eighth Amendment of the Irish constitution be upheld? Any personal opinion? |  |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 14:44 - May 25 with 2649 views | Lohengrin |
| Irish abortion referendum on 14:39 - May 25 by Banosswan |
Wanna bet. |
This is a child born prematurely at 23 weeks. That is a baby, my friend.
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| Irish abortion referendum on 14:53 - May 25 with 2627 views | Banosswan |
| Irish abortion referendum on 14:44 - May 25 by Lohengrin |
This is a child born prematurely at 23 weeks. That is a baby, my friend.
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Who will have severe respiratory difficulties, developmental problems, both mental and physical and possibly life limiting conditions. For what it's worth I think 23 weeks is too late a limit. |  |
| Ever since my son was... never conceived, because I've never had consensual sex without money involved... I've always kind of looked at you as... a thing, that I could live next to... in accordance with state laws. | | Poll: | How do you like your steak? |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 14:58 - May 25 with 2609 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 14:36 - May 25 by Lohengrin |
”You are saying that you don’t want either the mother or father to have rights unless they accord with your beliefs.
No, what I’m saying is that life is precious. I wouldn’t put words in your mouth and say you disagreed with that sentiment as I don’t imagine for one second you would but society will have arrived at a pretty pass if that is now viewed as in any way contentious or radical.
I tell you exactly the difference between somebody like myself and somebody on the opposite side of the debate, Lisa. Where they would see it as an issue around the primacy of individual ‘rights’ I would see it in the light of duty and responsibility. |
Nope.
You said, and I quote ‘fathers have rights too’. But they don’t, do they. They don’t have the right to want an abortion for their partner. And you don’t mind that restriction of their rights.
So again, the only rights you want them to have are the ones that accord with your own view. If you genuinely want them to have rights whether they accord with your own or not, you have to want the repeal of the ban. Which, again, doesn’t make people have abortions, it just allows them to have one. Safely. Without travelling to the UK.
And duty and responsibility always appear to mean restricting someone else’s rights or behaviours not your own. |  | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 15:15 - May 25 with 2575 views | Joe_bradshaw |
| Irish abortion referendum on 13:21 - May 25 by Highjack |
Most unwanted pregnancies will be prevented by the simple act of the gentleman wearing a condom, but God won’t even allow that in many countries.
People need to be brought up to be a bit more responsible. |
Correct.
Contraception and the morning after pill should ideally be available and reduce the need for abortions to a minimum. A church that denies the use of contraception and bans abortion and has a history of abusing unmarried mothers in its care is a disgrace.
Abortion should be the last resort and not used as an alternative to contraception but, ultimately the pregnant woman should make the decision after discussing the matter with the prospective father. |  |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 15:31 - May 25 with 2555 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 14:44 - May 25 by Lohengrin |
This is a child born prematurely at 23 weeks. That is a baby, my friend.
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Less than 10% of babies born at that age are classed as having either minor disability or no disability (the data suggests it’s somewhere near 5 or 6%). And it’s only that high due to huge medical advance and massive cost. A price worth paying if necessary and desired by the parents.
But that aside, it’s not relevant in this discussion. The vote in Ireland will enable abortion up to 12 weeks. In the UK, where abortion is technically allowed up to 24 weeks, 92% of abortions are carried out before 13 weeks, and only 2% after 20 weeks, almost all of those being due to severe disability in the foetus or performed as an emergency life saving operation on the mother. Until 22 weeks there is almost no chance of survival and babies born at that stage are almost all severely mentally impaired. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 15:38 - May 25 with 2543 views | Lohengrin |
| Irish abortion referendum on 14:58 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Nope.
You said, and I quote ‘fathers have rights too’. But they don’t, do they. They don’t have the right to want an abortion for their partner. And you don’t mind that restriction of their rights.
So again, the only rights you want them to have are the ones that accord with your own view. If you genuinely want them to have rights whether they accord with your own or not, you have to want the repeal of the ban. Which, again, doesn’t make people have abortions, it just allows them to have one. Safely. Without travelling to the UK.
And duty and responsibility always appear to mean restricting someone else’s rights or behaviours not your own. |
Just to be crystal clear, though I doubt you could possibly misconstrue my meaning, when I talked about a ‘father’s right’ I meant the right to become a father NOT afford the opportunity to commit infanticide. | |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 15:43 - May 25 with 2538 views | Lohengrin |
| Irish abortion referendum on 15:31 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Less than 10% of babies born at that age are classed as having either minor disability or no disability (the data suggests it’s somewhere near 5 or 6%). And it’s only that high due to huge medical advance and massive cost. A price worth paying if necessary and desired by the parents.
But that aside, it’s not relevant in this discussion. The vote in Ireland will enable abortion up to 12 weeks. In the UK, where abortion is technically allowed up to 24 weeks, 92% of abortions are carried out before 13 weeks, and only 2% after 20 weeks, almost all of those being due to severe disability in the foetus or performed as an emergency life saving operation on the mother. Until 22 weeks there is almost no chance of survival and babies born at that stage are almost all severely mentally impaired. |
I don’t contest any of that the only reason I posted that up was to demonstrate that at 23 weeks a foetus is indisputably ‘a baby.’ | |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 15:44 - May 25 with 2537 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 15:38 - May 25 by Lohengrin |
Just to be crystal clear, though I doubt you could possibly misconstrue my meaning, when I talked about a ‘father’s right’ I meant the right to become a father NOT afford the opportunity to commit infanticide. |
Yes. As I said, you are only concerned with their rights if they accord with your view. A statement you disagreed with just moments ago,
And it’s not infanticide, don’t be so f*cking ridiculous. | | | |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 16:08 - May 25 with 2505 views | Lohengrin |
| Irish abortion referendum on 15:44 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Yes. As I said, you are only concerned with their rights if they accord with your view. A statement you disagreed with just moments ago,
And it’s not infanticide, don’t be so f*cking ridiculous. |
Ridiculous? Only if by some contorted rumination you are able to divorce cause from effect. | |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 16:16 - May 25 with 2497 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 16:08 - May 25 by Lohengrin |
Ridiculous? Only if by some contorted rumination you are able to divorce cause from effect. |
Abortion of an early stage pregnancy is not infanticide. It is ridiculous to suggest it is. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 16:26 - May 25 with 2482 views | Lohengrin |
| Irish abortion referendum on 16:16 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Abortion of an early stage pregnancy is not infanticide. It is ridiculous to suggest it is. |
It’s to bring an end to burgeoning life whichever way you look at it.
For what it’s worth, Lisa, I’ve just showed this thread to my youngest and she said “the lady’s absolutely right.” If I’m cast in the role of Daniel, so be it. | |
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| Irish abortion referendum on 16:33 - May 25 with 2472 views | Ambergambler |
| Irish abortion referendum on 12:16 - May 24 by Lohengrin |
... and let women do whatever the hell they want with their bodies..”
This isn’t about piercings or tattoos, mind. |
If only it were.
Nobody undertakes this procedure lightly and you are pontificating on something you cannot experience and know nothing about. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 16:38 - May 25 with 2465 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 16:26 - May 25 by Lohengrin |
It’s to bring an end to burgeoning life whichever way you look at it.
For what it’s worth, Lisa, I’ve just showed this thread to my youngest and she said “the lady’s absolutely right.” If I’m cast in the role of Daniel, so be it. |
It’s the removal of potential life.
In the same way as a fertility clinic discarding unwanted eggs is the removal of potential life.
Or a vasectomy is the removal of potential life.
Or birth control.
Funnily enough, in areas such as the death penalty you don’t have an issue with the state choosing to end actual, sentient life whereas I do.
Actual life I don’t believe we have the right to end. Potential life - well yes, we do. In an ideal world we wouldn’t need to, but as I said, that doesn’t exist.
And your daughter is quite obviously far more sensible than her Dad! I’m amazed she puts up with you. Give her money to buy something nice as an apology for making her suffer ;-) | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 17:26 - May 25 with 2434 views | peenemunde |
| Irish abortion referendum on 16:38 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
It’s the removal of potential life.
In the same way as a fertility clinic discarding unwanted eggs is the removal of potential life.
Or a vasectomy is the removal of potential life.
Or birth control.
Funnily enough, in areas such as the death penalty you don’t have an issue with the state choosing to end actual, sentient life whereas I do.
Actual life I don’t believe we have the right to end. Potential life - well yes, we do. In an ideal world we wouldn’t need to, but as I said, that doesn’t exist.
And your daughter is quite obviously far more sensible than her Dad! I’m amazed she puts up with you. Give her money to buy something nice as an apology for making her suffer ;-) |
You’d rather a mass murderer live that an unborn child.
Absolutely disgusting. |  | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 18:07 - May 25 with 2406 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 17:26 - May 25 by peenemunde |
You’d rather a mass murderer live that an unborn child.
Absolutely disgusting. |
Nope.
Didn’t even remotely say that.
I don’t believe in the taking of life. Any life. With the single exception of a life taken in self defence to protect your own.
I also don’t believe an early stage foetus to be an ‘unborn child’. A life, if you prefer. I believe it to have the potential for life, which is very different. I trust the work of medical experts in determining when life starts, not some mythical creature or someone with no medical expertise. I know you’re not a fan of expert knowledge. I am.
You’re a hypocrite by the way. On this very thread you’ve said that abortion is ok in the case of rape. A true belief in life with all its associated rights beginning at conception would see that as murder of an innocent in punishment of the sins of another.
If you really believe that a foetus is a human being in its own right, you shouldn’t believe in abortion under any circusmstances save possibly to protect the life of its mother. Although I would fundamentally disagree with that stance, at least it would demonstrate consistency and an ability to think. You don’t really believe in it or at least not to the extent that you have thought it through properly, you’re just using it as a control mechanism. I’ve no time for that. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 19:11 - May 25 with 2360 views | peenemunde |
| Irish abortion referendum on 18:07 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Nope.
Didn’t even remotely say that.
I don’t believe in the taking of life. Any life. With the single exception of a life taken in self defence to protect your own.
I also don’t believe an early stage foetus to be an ‘unborn child’. A life, if you prefer. I believe it to have the potential for life, which is very different. I trust the work of medical experts in determining when life starts, not some mythical creature or someone with no medical expertise. I know you’re not a fan of expert knowledge. I am.
You’re a hypocrite by the way. On this very thread you’ve said that abortion is ok in the case of rape. A true belief in life with all its associated rights beginning at conception would see that as murder of an innocent in punishment of the sins of another.
If you really believe that a foetus is a human being in its own right, you shouldn’t believe in abortion under any circusmstances save possibly to protect the life of its mother. Although I would fundamentally disagree with that stance, at least it would demonstrate consistency and an ability to think. You don’t really believe in it or at least not to the extent that you have thought it through properly, you’re just using it as a control mechanism. I’ve no time for that. |
Where have I said abortion is ok in the case of rape ? | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 19:18 - May 25 with 2353 views | exiledclaseboy |
| Irish abortion referendum on 19:11 - May 25 by peenemunde |
Where have I said abortion is ok in the case of rape ? |
When Darran said this after you said that abortion should only be possible if the mother’s life is at risk:
“So a woman gets raped by a psychopath,gets pregnant and she can’t terminate because the pregnancy goes all trickety boo?”
And you replied:
“That would be another extreme case and would justify an abortion.” [Post edited 25 May 2018 19:19]
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| Irish abortion referendum on 19:35 - May 25 with 2331 views | peenemunde |
| Irish abortion referendum on 19:18 - May 25 by exiledclaseboy |
When Darran said this after you said that abortion should only be possible if the mother’s life is at risk:
“So a woman gets raped by a psychopath,gets pregnant and she can’t terminate because the pregnancy goes all trickety boo?”
And you replied:
“That would be another extreme case and would justify an abortion.” [Post edited 25 May 2018 19:19]
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Justify does not equate to being ok. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 21:12 - May 25 with 2292 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 19:35 - May 25 by peenemunde |
Justify does not equate to being ok. |
Well justify means show to be right or reasonable and ok is a perfectly adequate substitute for that.
But let’s use your word if you prefer.
You’ve said that you believe that a foetus is an unborn baby, thus is an independent life. And you have also said that you can justify killing that innocent unborn independent life because another person has committed a crime. It’s not a logical position to take.
You either believe that a early foetus is a potential life as I do, in which case abortion is justifiable, or you believe that life starts at conception in which case you should never believe in abortion under any circumstance save possibly (and it’s only possibly, as how can you measure one life against another), the mother is in danger.
Your position is ill thought out, illogical, and as I say, just serves as a control mechanim. It’s just knee jerk nonsense. Why on earth should any woman or man be subjected to a law formulated by people who make it up as they go along as you are doing? | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 21:17 - May 25 with 2287 views | peenemunde |
| Irish abortion referendum on 21:12 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
Well justify means show to be right or reasonable and ok is a perfectly adequate substitute for that.
But let’s use your word if you prefer.
You’ve said that you believe that a foetus is an unborn baby, thus is an independent life. And you have also said that you can justify killing that innocent unborn independent life because another person has committed a crime. It’s not a logical position to take.
You either believe that a early foetus is a potential life as I do, in which case abortion is justifiable, or you believe that life starts at conception in which case you should never believe in abortion under any circumstance save possibly (and it’s only possibly, as how can you measure one life against another), the mother is in danger.
Your position is ill thought out, illogical, and as I say, just serves as a control mechanim. It’s just knee jerk nonsense. Why on earth should any woman or man be subjected to a law formulated by people who make it up as they go along as you are doing? |
My god. What utter nonsense.
Must be all that polluted air you breathe in London. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 21:27 - May 25 with 2270 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Irish abortion referendum on 21:17 - May 25 by peenemunde |
My god. What utter nonsense.
Must be all that polluted air you breathe in London. |
No actual response then justifying your own hypocrisy.
Lol.
Carry on. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 22:54 - May 25 with 2211 views | peenemunde |
| Irish abortion referendum on 21:27 - May 25 by londonlisa2001 |
No actual response then justifying your own hypocrisy.
Lol.
Carry on. |
Nothing hypocritical about being able to tell the difference between an abortion of “convenience” and a abortion of necessity in terms of physical and mental well-being of the mother. | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 23:15 - May 25 with 2193 views | moonie |
Lisa and I are no chums but she s destroyed pee and loh
Too many unwanted kids were born in Zireland ,unwanted,unplanned . They had to suffer their whole lives while men decided their fate | | | |
| Irish abortion referendum on 23:39 - May 25 with 2177 views | Kilkennyjack |
Rise and Repeal.☘ï¸
Lisa is right you know. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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