| U23’s Hype 09:34 - Jun 2 with 5425 views | BillyChong |
What evidence is there to back up the claims of these u23’s superstars doing a job for the first team next season? Bar McBurnie who to some extent has proved he’s got something at Championship level who else has? Looking at the others that have made senior appearances:
Tyler Reid - couldn’t get in the Newport starting line up, played 7 games for them
Kenji Gorré - age 23, played less than 20 senior professional games
Botti Biabi - made a couple of appearances on loan at Hamilton
Dan James - looked alright in the brief cameo against Notts County in a comfortble game, don’t think he did much at Shrewsbury though
George Byers - age 21, one appearance for Watford
Adnan Maric - age 21, one appearance for the Swans
Zabret - age 22, 14 appearances for Domžale in Slovenia
Ryan Blair - age 22, 14 games for Falkirk
Adam King - age 22, couple of games at Hearts, Southend and Mansfield and 20 odd for Crewe 3 seasons ago
Joe Rodon - 12 games for Cheltenham last season
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| U23’s Hype on 18:31 - Jun 3 with 1513 views | jack247 |
| U23’s Hype on 17:44 - Jun 3 by jasper_T |
We can give 5 or 6 of them a chance as (initially) squad players or spend £20m on bang average backups on 10x the wages like we've been doing.
Oli showed he can do the business in the Championship. Connor hasn't looked out of place in our first team. We had people saying the other day that we should pay £5m for a lad at Coventry who'd played no more football for them than Cian Harries did.
A couple of decent Byers free kicks and corners might have kept us up. But instead we stuck with the same group of established players that were in awful form and proven to be not good enough. Take a risk, give them time and backing. Odds are a few will push on and be assets, either on the pitch or on the end of year accounts when we sell them on. |
Of the two options, I’d far prefer your suggestion.
Of course, we could recruit players suited to the way Potter wants to play and not pay the earth for them. I know our recruitment has been a shambles for the last few years, but signing players doesn’t necessarily mean signing overpriced players who aren’t fit for purpose | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 18:45 - Jun 3 with 1497 views | Blue_Blood |
Another observation having watched youth team football quite a lot over the last few years is that your two centre backs Cabango and I forget the other lads name need to go out on loan to a league 1 or league 2 club to gain some experience.
What generally happens in youth football these days is that teams look brilliant til they get to the final third then are toothless up top.
You very rarely see any good number 9s coming through these days and very few teams at youth level will pump the ball into the box "to the big man"
Centre backs need to be exposed to this before being thrown into championship football. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 19:07 - Jun 3 with 1464 views | dobjack2 |
| U23’s Hype on 16:10 - Jun 3 by Blue_Blood |
I think some of the replies in this thread are off the mark. I won't claim to have an extensive knowledge of your u23s but I have watched them once or twice and I think there a definitely one or two who could step up as long as the are supplemented with a bit of nous and experience.
One of the best teams I seen down Cardiff the season before last were Barnsley and they had a team full of young prospects who made the grade cos they were given the chance.
I think Dan James definitely should be given a chance, and though I haven't seen too much of him I liked Jack Evans and the full back with the long hair looked decent.
I know there are big expectations of Cullen but I was very disappointed in the faw cup final against Cardiff.
McBurnie should definitely be in contention this season and his stint at Barnsley would have done wonders for him.
I'd be careful about writing kids off cos they didn't set the world alight at another club on loan. I think it's horses for courses and the environment may have come as a shock to them. Just cos Fulton didn't set the world alight at Wigan doesn't mean he cam make a go of it at Swansea given the chance. |
I remember that Lampard kid on loan down here. Seemed tidy enough but no great shakes. Whatever happened to him? | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 19:35 - Jun 3 with 1425 views | Dippy |
| U23’s Hype on 19:07 - Jun 3 by dobjack2 |
I remember that Lampard kid on loan down here. Seemed tidy enough but no great shakes. Whatever happened to him? |
He was 17, and Sessegnon was 16.. etc.
Some are 20+..
Renato Sanches is 20 years old.
And our u23s weren't anywhere near him.. | |
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| U23’s Hype on 21:52 - Jun 3 with 1404 views | jasper_T |
| U23’s Hype on 19:35 - Jun 3 by Dippy |
He was 17, and Sessegnon was 16.. etc.
Some are 20+..
Renato Sanches is 20 years old.
And our u23s weren't anywhere near him.. |
The u23s definitely aren't put up against advertising boards often enough.
A lot of very good footballers didn't hit their stride until their mid twenties (Rangel an obvious example here). Dismissing everyone who isn't playing competitive senior football by the time they're 18 is not a recipe for academy success. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 21:58 - Jun 3 with 1399 views | jasper_T |
| U23’s Hype on 18:45 - Jun 3 by Blue_Blood |
Another observation having watched youth team football quite a lot over the last few years is that your two centre backs Cabango and I forget the other lads name need to go out on loan to a league 1 or league 2 club to gain some experience.
What generally happens in youth football these days is that teams look brilliant til they get to the final third then are toothless up top.
You very rarely see any good number 9s coming through these days and very few teams at youth level will pump the ball into the box "to the big man"
Centre backs need to be exposed to this before being thrown into championship football. |
Ben Cabango is an u18s player who got his break into the u23s in the second half of this season. He's looked very comfortable stepping up so far but unlikely that any football league side would show enough faith to give him that sort of chance yet.
Cian Harries played for Coventry in League One before we poached him. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 22:23 - Jun 3 with 1377 views | Dippy |
| U23’s Hype on 21:52 - Jun 3 by jasper_T |
The u23s definitely aren't put up against advertising boards often enough.
A lot of very good footballers didn't hit their stride until their mid twenties (Rangel an obvious example here). Dismissing everyone who isn't playing competitive senior football by the time they're 18 is not a recipe for academy success. |
I was just explaining the age and level they were/are playing at compared to our u23s. | |
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| U23’s Hype on 08:57 - Jun 4 with 1336 views | jasonbromham |
| U23’s Hype on 17:44 - Jun 3 by jasper_T |
We can give 5 or 6 of them a chance as (initially) squad players or spend £20m on bang average backups on 10x the wages like we've been doing.
Oli showed he can do the business in the Championship. Connor hasn't looked out of place in our first team. We had people saying the other day that we should pay £5m for a lad at Coventry who'd played no more football for them than Cian Harries did.
A couple of decent Byers free kicks and corners might have kept us up. But instead we stuck with the same group of established players that were in awful form and proven to be not good enough. Take a risk, give them time and backing. Odds are a few will push on and be assets, either on the pitch or on the end of year accounts when we sell them on. |
Not often I agree with you Jasper but you are bang on. We have to remember these players are not the finished article and are still young players with lots of time to improve. Just because some of these loans haven't worked for them at other clubs it doesn't mean that they aren't any good. | | | |
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| U23’s Hype on 09:32 - Jun 4 with 1318 views | herbie |
| U23’s Hype on 21:58 - Jun 3 by jasper_T |
Ben Cabango is an u18s player who got his break into the u23s in the second half of this season. He's looked very comfortable stepping up so far but unlikely that any football league side would show enough faith to give him that sort of chance yet.
Cian Harries played for Coventry in League One before we poached him. |
Yes Ben has only just turned 18. I think another season in the under 23s before a loan spell is what he needs. He was picked up late so didn't come through the Academy system from a young age. He was only picked up following the British and Irish schools finals that Plasmawr school won in 2014, being the first Welsh side to win the trophy.
He is a top lad from a lovely family and very level-headed. I would love him to do well. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 10:49 - Jun 4 with 1294 views | MoscowJack |
Firstly, we can't judge the U23s until they play a full season of senior football, whatever the level and it's important that the club finds the right club for them. They need to join a strong team (for their respective league) and have a chance to impress, not just joining a struggling team where everyone looks poor.
Also, we have to remember that beating the likes of ManU, Chelsea, Citeh, Arsenal, Spurs, Lpool etc is great, but let's not forget that most of their better U23s were out on loan to clubs all around Europe. These teams are basically their U23 reserves, but are obviously still very talented.
Making it in football, at this age, is a lot about talent and ability (obviously) but it's a lot about luck too. For example, Ben Davies only got his chance due to an injury to Taylor and Connor Roberts only got his due to Naughton's ban.
We know that the likes of Dan James and George Byers are potentially first-teamers but our club need to either give them a real chance or let them go out to a club and ensure they get a proper chance of being a success. This means getting guaranteed game-time, finding a club that plays to the style that we are hoping to get back to and also that the club have the facilities (and staff) to deal with any injuries (unlike Shrewsbury's treatment of Dan James).
Saying all of that, a lot of it is pointless and will be a total waste if we're going to continue to spend money on players who aren't as good as what we've got already. I genuinely don't think Clucas is any better than Fulton and Narsingh probably less able to influence the first team than Dan James, but that's just my opinion.
Finally, there's another reason that our 23s have done well over the past few years and that's because they play as a TEAM. They have a style not too far off what we had under Rodgers/Martinez and this makes the team better than the individuals that make up that team. The sooner we start bringing in players capable of playing in our old style, the sooner we'll start getting the best out of our squad - that includes the senior and junior players! | |
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| U23’s Hype on 12:07 - Jun 4 with 1263 views | jasper_T |
Luck is a huge, huge factor. Connor went to Yeovil to be a backup/squad player for a team in a relegation fight, but due to a couple of knocks to other players got his chance early, could make the shirt his own and played every game but one (due to a Wales u21s callup), sweeping their end of season awards.
By contrast Dan James went to Shrewsbury to be a backup/squad player for a team in a relegation fight, but their senior players and other loanees all started in spectacular form and due to injuries of his own he wasn't going to get much chance of a look in. When he came back to Swansea they were top. Alex Rodman (ten years James' senior) played 44 games on the left wing.
Loaning players out is always a gamble. People in this thread are asking where the proof is that the u23s can contribute at a higher level, but that's the same question League One and Two managers ask after watching PL2 and Checkatrade games (even though we beat 3 senior sides this season, it's not a proper competition, is it?). If we don't show faith and take a risk on the players our coaches should know inside out, we can't expect anyone further down the divisions to guarantee 30+ starts to an unproven, unknown lad from down the road.
Like us they've all got 30 year olds who they know will do a job off the bench for 20 minutes. Everyone likes a safe option when most managers at no more than 8 games from the sack. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 12:54 - Jun 4 with 1234 views | MoscowJack |
Great post, Jasper! Sums everything up perfectly....... | |
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| U23’s Hype on 13:14 - Jun 4 with 1213 views | vetchonian |
It is amazing how we "write off" our U23s as being not suitable for our first team yet the hype on here last summer over a certain 20 yr old was incredulous.
Yes Sanches did recieve the "golden boy " award but
" While Bayern won the league, Sanches played only 25 games across all competitions and did not achieve a single goal or assist. He started just four league games and playing the entirety of only one.[40] Former Bayern player Lothar Matthäus named him among the three worst players of the season,"
Yet so many on here and more worryingly our powers at be believed this 20 year old was going to be a "key sigining" last summer!
The key differnces are our U23s have not had the exposure Sanches had....yes he did well for Benfica and had a great Euros but stuggled at Bayern....Many on here forget we had great times over the last ten years with players who had been regarded as "failures" at other clubs. Leon, Monk, Tate legends as players. Ash who had only just made a move form non leahue to L2 Stockport...having been released from West Broms "acadamy" at 16
We dont seem to manage these developing players well...as someone has said the top 6 PL sides have their true promising U23s out on loan playing competetive senior football maybe we shoulod do more of this but use clubs who will give players game time and who play a suitable style..whatever ours is these days! | |
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| U23’s Hype on 13:45 - Jun 4 with 1189 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| U23’s Hype on 13:14 - Jun 4 by vetchonian |
It is amazing how we "write off" our U23s as being not suitable for our first team yet the hype on here last summer over a certain 20 yr old was incredulous.
Yes Sanches did recieve the "golden boy " award but
" While Bayern won the league, Sanches played only 25 games across all competitions and did not achieve a single goal or assist. He started just four league games and playing the entirety of only one.[40] Former Bayern player Lothar Matthäus named him among the three worst players of the season,"
Yet so many on here and more worryingly our powers at be believed this 20 year old was going to be a "key sigining" last summer!
The key differnces are our U23s have not had the exposure Sanches had....yes he did well for Benfica and had a great Euros but stuggled at Bayern....Many on here forget we had great times over the last ten years with players who had been regarded as "failures" at other clubs. Leon, Monk, Tate legends as players. Ash who had only just made a move form non leahue to L2 Stockport...having been released from West Broms "acadamy" at 16
We dont seem to manage these developing players well...as someone has said the top 6 PL sides have their true promising U23s out on loan playing competetive senior football maybe we shoulod do more of this but use clubs who will give players game time and who play a suitable style..whatever ours is these days! |
"should do more of this but use clubs who will give players game time and who play a suitable style."
That is one of the biggest problems, actually finding a club that is prepared to replace an established senior player with an untried U23s player from another club.
Quite often these transfers are pushed on the Manager and he just ignores the incoming player, leaving them on the bench while they play their own players.
A loan player has to make a real impact to continue being selected, not just replace another player. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 13:50 - Jun 4 with 1184 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| U23’s Hype on 12:07 - Jun 4 by jasper_T |
Luck is a huge, huge factor. Connor went to Yeovil to be a backup/squad player for a team in a relegation fight, but due to a couple of knocks to other players got his chance early, could make the shirt his own and played every game but one (due to a Wales u21s callup), sweeping their end of season awards.
By contrast Dan James went to Shrewsbury to be a backup/squad player for a team in a relegation fight, but their senior players and other loanees all started in spectacular form and due to injuries of his own he wasn't going to get much chance of a look in. When he came back to Swansea they were top. Alex Rodman (ten years James' senior) played 44 games on the left wing.
Loaning players out is always a gamble. People in this thread are asking where the proof is that the u23s can contribute at a higher level, but that's the same question League One and Two managers ask after watching PL2 and Checkatrade games (even though we beat 3 senior sides this season, it's not a proper competition, is it?). If we don't show faith and take a risk on the players our coaches should know inside out, we can't expect anyone further down the divisions to guarantee 30+ starts to an unproven, unknown lad from down the road.
Like us they've all got 30 year olds who they know will do a job off the bench for 20 minutes. Everyone likes a safe option when most managers at no more than 8 games from the sack. |
The answer to these problems is quite simple.
Play a mid week game (in lieu of training) between the 1st team and the U23s (possibly even mix & match).
Allow many subs so that the 1st team players also get some game time.
That will soon show up any players who should/should not be in the squad.
The worst thing they ever did was do away with Reserve games, where youngsters could be brought on with no risk to the 1st team results. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 14:00 - Jun 4 with 1176 views | jack247 |
| U23’s Hype on 13:50 - Jun 4 by A_Fans_Dad |
The answer to these problems is quite simple.
Play a mid week game (in lieu of training) between the 1st team and the U23s (possibly even mix & match).
Allow many subs so that the 1st team players also get some game time.
That will soon show up any players who should/should not be in the squad.
The worst thing they ever did was do away with Reserve games, where youngsters could be brought on with no risk to the 1st team results. |
Just judging by the few games I’ve seen, I’d say the intensity is more of a problem than the quality. There are obviously some gifted players down there, but their league is more or less played like training games.
I can’t see a way around sending the better players out on loan before trying to blood them in the first team. Almost doesn’t matter how low they have to drop initially, just get them hardened to League football | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 14:05 - Jun 4 with 1166 views | Blue_Blood |
| U23’s Hype on 12:07 - Jun 4 by jasper_T |
Luck is a huge, huge factor. Connor went to Yeovil to be a backup/squad player for a team in a relegation fight, but due to a couple of knocks to other players got his chance early, could make the shirt his own and played every game but one (due to a Wales u21s callup), sweeping their end of season awards.
By contrast Dan James went to Shrewsbury to be a backup/squad player for a team in a relegation fight, but their senior players and other loanees all started in spectacular form and due to injuries of his own he wasn't going to get much chance of a look in. When he came back to Swansea they were top. Alex Rodman (ten years James' senior) played 44 games on the left wing.
Loaning players out is always a gamble. People in this thread are asking where the proof is that the u23s can contribute at a higher level, but that's the same question League One and Two managers ask after watching PL2 and Checkatrade games (even though we beat 3 senior sides this season, it's not a proper competition, is it?). If we don't show faith and take a risk on the players our coaches should know inside out, we can't expect anyone further down the divisions to guarantee 30+ starts to an unproven, unknown lad from down the road.
Like us they've all got 30 year olds who they know will do a job off the bench for 20 minutes. Everyone likes a safe option when most managers at no more than 8 games from the sack. |
You've also got to have the will to do it in my opinion.
Unfortunately in England (and Wales) all owners are chasing the bucks of the "promised land" and for clubs like Swansea and Cardiff it's always gonna be an unsustainable model cos when the inevitable relegation comes the club is in shit street cos they've ended up overstretched itself.
Manager's like Pocchetino are brave enough to create a pathway for these young kids to be given a chance. And if a club like Tottenham can do it then why can't smaller clubs like Swansea at least attempt to emulate this.
Man United have brought through at least one academy product every year for something like the last 80 years! | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 15:02 - Jun 4 with 1139 views | jasper_T |
Man Utd have managed to "bring through" some absolutely shocking players and sell them for real money (e.g. Donald Love to Sunderland) based on the badge and a couple of brief senior appearances. The reputation of our academy is improving, but until we start showing faith in our development players we'll never going to get the results the investment demands. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 15:09 - Jun 4 with 1132 views | jasper_T |
| U23’s Hype on 13:50 - Jun 4 by A_Fans_Dad |
The answer to these problems is quite simple.
Play a mid week game (in lieu of training) between the 1st team and the U23s (possibly even mix & match).
Allow many subs so that the 1st team players also get some game time.
That will soon show up any players who should/should not be in the squad.
The worst thing they ever did was do away with Reserve games, where youngsters could be brought on with no risk to the 1st team results. |
Given the lack of effort and interest most senior players show when turning out for the u23s I doubt games between the two sides would produce certifiable results.
Alfie Mawson was poor for the u23s when he first joined. Mo Barrow faked an injury to get hooked in one of his last appearances down there he was struggling so much. Neil Taylor was one of the worst left backs I've seen play for u23s (maybe slightly better than Matej Paljk). Leon was anonymous at that level.
Getting established professionals to take a training game seriously is a big ask. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 16:11 - Jun 4 with 1099 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| U23’s Hype on 15:09 - Jun 4 by jasper_T |
Given the lack of effort and interest most senior players show when turning out for the u23s I doubt games between the two sides would produce certifiable results.
Alfie Mawson was poor for the u23s when he first joined. Mo Barrow faked an injury to get hooked in one of his last appearances down there he was struggling so much. Neil Taylor was one of the worst left backs I've seen play for u23s (maybe slightly better than Matej Paljk). Leon was anonymous at that level.
Getting established professionals to take a training game seriously is a big ask. |
But if their appearances in the 1st team squad in the Saturday game depended on it they might reconsider. | | | |
| U23’s Hype on 17:30 - Jun 4 with 1082 views | jack247 |
| U23’s Hype on 16:11 - Jun 4 by A_Fans_Dad |
But if their appearances in the 1st team squad in the Saturday game depended on it they might reconsider. |
We don’t want first team players to be busting a gut in midweek practice matches. It would be like the Christmas period all season. We’d have injuries and fatigue all over the shop.
The youngsters can train with the first team and do all the technical stuff with the U23s. They need to go out on loan to get used to the intensity and physicality. | | | |
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