| Roberto Martinez 21:38 - Jun 28 with 17784 views | SgorioFruit |
Turned Swansea City FC into one of the most attractive playing football clubs in the whole of the British isles. Massively influential in putting the foundations in for SCFC to become a model club that would rise from league 1 to Premier league in a matter of few years.
And he has also just beaten England in a World Cup game.
If you were told that was going to happen while he was playing for us down the vetch you would have thought you were dreaming.
I’d like to buy that man a pint.
Please discuss. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:56 - Jun 29 with 837 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:52 - Jun 29 by Darran |
You can’t debate with someone that’s never wrong. |
There’s a difference between never being wrong and never realising it.
He’s not wrong here, he’s got a valid viewpoint. He’s just not accepting that it’s not the only valid viewpoint. |  | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:57 - Jun 29 with 835 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:55 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
The reason I used the Sol Campbell scenario, was to illustrate that if you take biased, irrational emotions out of it, it becomes a perfectly sensible move that Tottenham fans had no right to be aggrieved about.
It’s an extreme example, but it’s a good example of why a cold, clinical approach doesn’t always tell the whole story in football. |
Not just an extreme example, an unrelatable one based on same City and league rivalry. If Martinez left to go to Cardiff then I would view it differently I suppose. But we aren’t talking about emotive rivalries, we are just talking about a big standard transfer .
Do you have a similar example of a manager leaving a Chanpionship club for a Premier League job? [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 22:59]
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| Roberto Martinez on 22:59 - Jun 29 with 832 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:53 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
No never resentful, I was watching excellent Championship football because of him after rescuing us from possibly going out of business by being an integral part of the team in league 2, how could I resent him?
I was devastated when Trundle left for Bristol City after years of kissing the bash and claiming what a huge Jack he was - I never resented him either. |
How about Huw Jenkins?
He undeniably played a massive part in taking us from league to the PL. There is a lot of resentment towards him at the moment, in my view, justifiably so. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:01 - Jun 29 with 825 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:57 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
Not just an extreme example, an unrelatable one based on same City and league rivalry. If Martinez left to go to Cardiff then I would view it differently I suppose. But we aren’t talking about emotive rivalries, we are just talking about a big standard transfer .
Do you have a similar example of a manager leaving a Chanpionship club for a Premier League job? [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 22:59]
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That’s not the point I’m making and you well know that.
The point I am making is that if you take bias and irrational emotions out of it and look at it as a business decision, no one can bear him any grudges. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:03 - Jun 29 with 818 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 22:59 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
How about Huw Jenkins?
He undeniably played a massive part in taking us from league to the PL. There is a lot of resentment towards him at the moment, in my view, justifiably so. |
Yep very, but again that’s a completely different action to leaving the club to go to a PL team.
Yet am still abused on here for recognising that Jenkins for all he has done is still possibly better than any realistic alternative we can expect from the Americans. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:05 - Jun 29 with 812 views | longlostjack |
When Martinez went to Wigan he took his coaching staff with him. Hopefully GP ‘s team hasn’t been scouting targets that were intended for Ostersund. Soft me see. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:06 - Jun 29 with 812 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:01 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
That’s not the point I’m making and you well know that.
The point I am making is that if you take bias and irrational emotions out of it and look at it as a business decision, no one can bear him any grudges. |
But we both know they are completely different scenarios. You can have emotion and still be balanced - hence why we understand why Trundle left after kissing the badge after every goal. I was in tears at Wembley upon promotion but was happy to say that we probably would have lost had Reading scored one of their chances to make it 3-3.
You can’t give another example of a manager leaving a Championship job to take a PL one and it being an extreme betrayal because there probably isn’t one. Did people genuinely think he was bound to the club forever then? [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 23:07]
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:09 - Jun 29 with 800 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:03 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
Yep very, but again that’s a completely different action to leaving the club to go to a PL team.
Yet am still abused on here for recognising that Jenkins for all he has done is still possibly better than any realistic alternative we can expect from the Americans. |
But just like the Sol Campbell scenario and the decade old Martinez scenario, you take and irrational, biased feelings out of it and all he has done is sold something he owned.
There has been a quite obvious split on Martinez on this thread, there wouldn’t have been at the time, he was a pariah. Maybe a similar thread on Huw Jenkins in 10 years time would see something similar. | | | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:10 - Jun 29 with 798 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:06 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
But we both know they are completely different scenarios. You can have emotion and still be balanced - hence why we understand why Trundle left after kissing the badge after every goal. I was in tears at Wembley upon promotion but was happy to say that we probably would have lost had Reading scored one of their chances to make it 3-3.
You can’t give another example of a manager leaving a Championship job to take a PL one and it being an extreme betrayal because there probably isn’t one. Did people genuinely think he was bound to the club forever then? [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 23:07]
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Well he did say he was bound to the club forever. lol |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:13 - Jun 29 with 796 views | longlostjack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:10 - Jun 29 by Darran |
Well he did say he was bound to the club forever. lol |
Exactly. Coffins etc. Wombat. [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 23:15]
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:14 - Jun 29 with 795 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:06 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
But we both know they are completely different scenarios. You can have emotion and still be balanced - hence why we understand why Trundle left after kissing the badge after every goal. I was in tears at Wembley upon promotion but was happy to say that we probably would have lost had Reading scored one of their chances to make it 3-3.
You can’t give another example of a manager leaving a Championship job to take a PL one and it being an extreme betrayal because there probably isn’t one. Did people genuinely think he was bound to the club forever then? [Post edited 29 Jun 2018 23:07]
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You can also understand why Campbell left for title contenders Arsenal on probably a bigger wage.
I’m not going to go round and round with you on this particular point anymore. I’ve illustrated why bias and irrational resentment are valid emotions in football. That was all I wa trying to do. I don’t need a like for like example to make a holistic point. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:16 - Jun 29 with 790 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:10 - Jun 29 by Darran |
Well he did say he was bound to the club forever. lol |
So you expected him to be? | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:22 - Jun 29 with 782 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:16 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
So you expected him to be? |
No I didn’t because I know more about him than you’ll ever know. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:24 - Jun 29 with 779 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:09 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
But just like the Sol Campbell scenario and the decade old Martinez scenario, you take and irrational, biased feelings out of it and all he has done is sold something he owned.
There has been a quite obvious split on Martinez on this thread, there wouldn’t have been at the time, he was a pariah. Maybe a similar thread on Huw Jenkins in 10 years time would see something similar. |
It wasn't just selling something he owned, he conspired against the fans representatives. Nobody is annoyed with him for selling what he owned surely? thy are annoyed at him for underhand tactics at the expense of the club he was and continues to be charged with protecting the best interests of.
Martinez' crime was similar to kissing the badge. Wildly different. Which is why you cannot think of a similar example. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:25 - Jun 29 with 776 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:22 - Jun 29 by Darran |
No I didn’t because I know more about him than you’ll ever know. |
Great so neither of us believed it then. Great.
I have no interest in your stalking stories. I wouldn't be very nice to you either if you were pestering me every 5 minutes. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:27 - Jun 29 with 775 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:14 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
You can also understand why Campbell left for title contenders Arsenal on probably a bigger wage.
I’m not going to go round and round with you on this particular point anymore. I’ve illustrated why bias and irrational resentment are valid emotions in football. That was all I wa trying to do. I don’t need a like for like example to make a holistic point. |
I can understand it yes, but it takes some gall to go to your same City rivals in the same league as you.
Comparing that to a manager leaving a Championship club to go to a Premier League club, the same club that gave him his break in the English game is hardly the same. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:29 - Jun 29 with 770 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:25 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
Great so neither of us believed it then. Great.
I have no interest in your stalking stories. I wouldn't be very nice to you either if you were pestering me every 5 minutes. |
Who said he wasn’t very nice to me? | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:34 - Jun 29 with 767 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:24 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
It wasn't just selling something he owned, he conspired against the fans representatives. Nobody is annoyed with him for selling what he owned surely? thy are annoyed at him for underhand tactics at the expense of the club he was and continues to be charged with protecting the best interests of.
Martinez' crime was similar to kissing the badge. Wildly different. Which is why you cannot think of a similar example. |
Underhand tactics at the expense of the club.
Like agreeing to go to Wigan before the club were even contacted. (Dave Whelan admitted this)
Like promising not to go after any Swansea players (and I’m not sure why he even bothered with that lie) then bidding for Scotland and unsettling Rangel.
I can’t think of a similar example because I don’t need one, I’m making a holistic point about fans emotions, quite justifiably being biased in favour of their club and resenting those they perceive to harm it. You are probably right, there probably isn’t a like for like example, it was a fairly unique set of circumstances. The fact that you need an exact like for like to validate my point kind of explains your clinical, detached approach. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:37 - Jun 29 with 762 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:27 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
I can understand it yes, but it takes some gall to go to your same City rivals in the same league as you.
Comparing that to a manager leaving a Championship club to go to a Premier League club, the same club that gave him his break in the English game is hardly the same. |
You understand the point I’m making. You also understand I’m using a contentious scenario to make it. You haven’t actually disagreed with the point to be fair, you’ve just stated it’s a more extreme example. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:44 - Jun 29 with 758 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:34 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Underhand tactics at the expense of the club.
Like agreeing to go to Wigan before the club were even contacted. (Dave Whelan admitted this)
Like promising not to go after any Swansea players (and I’m not sure why he even bothered with that lie) then bidding for Scotland and unsettling Rangel.
I can’t think of a similar example because I don’t need one, I’m making a holistic point about fans emotions, quite justifiably being biased in favour of their club and resenting those they perceive to harm it. You are probably right, there probably isn’t a like for like example, it was a fairly unique set of circumstances. The fact that you need an exact like for like to validate my point kind of explains your clinical, detached approach. |
No, that's part of football. Naive to think otherwise.
Do you think we did not find out if Graham Potter wanted to come to us before we offered him a contract? Do you think we spoke to Joe Allen or his representatives more accurately prior to deciding whether to sign him from Stoke? That's normal. Again not in any way comparable to Martinez.
If you did not need an example then why did you give one? One that is incredibly unrelated to the situation when there are a host of situations to choose from where a manager left for a better job. You were the one that brought examples into it, yet are now criticising me for wanting one that actually related to the situation?
My point is you don't have to have no emotion and be ''detached'' in order to see things how they are. And the opposite is also not true to constitute being a fan. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:48 - Jun 29 with 754 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:37 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
You understand the point I’m making. You also understand I’m using a contentious scenario to make it. You haven’t actually disagreed with the point to be fair, you’ve just stated it’s a more extreme example. |
To be honest your point is becoming increasingly hard to pin point. My initial response to you was stating that being biased and irrational is not part and parcel of being a fan, meaning that you are able to be perfectly balanced on situations like this and still approach the game in a passionate way.
If every fan lacked the ability to think rationally then these boards would be a waste of time. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 23:57 - Jun 29 with 745 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:48 - Jun 29 by E20Jack |
To be honest your point is becoming increasingly hard to pin point. My initial response to you was stating that being biased and irrational is not part and parcel of being a fan, meaning that you are able to be perfectly balanced on situations like this and still approach the game in a passionate way.
If every fan lacked the ability to think rationally then these boards would be a waste of time. |
Ok, final time.
You were making the point that it’s not ok to have irrational bias towards your club when discussing ex players, managers, whatever.
My point was that although it’s quite plain to see that Tottenham fans had every right to be irked at Campbell going to their hated rivals on a free, that if you take those emotions out of it, they had nothing to complain about.
I don’t think there is anything complicated in that. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 00:13 - Jun 30 with 741 views | swan65split |
Feck me someones headboard is quite static! |  | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 01:16 - Jun 30 with 730 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 23:57 - Jun 29 by jack247 |
Ok, final time.
You were making the point that it’s not ok to have irrational bias towards your club when discussing ex players, managers, whatever.
My point was that although it’s quite plain to see that Tottenham fans had every right to be irked at Campbell going to their hated rivals on a free, that if you take those emotions out of it, they had nothing to complain about.
I don’t think there is anything complicated in that. |
Please could you quote me properly when clarifying what my point is, instead of using half of it to represent something that is not my opinion. This is exactly what I said:-
''Of course it is, but you still have to remain realistic and honest otherwise debates are meaningless.
If you are being biased or irrational then that is absolutely not ok in a discussion about it. Well if accuracy is the goal anyway. Otherwise it is just licences hissy fits and histeria about inaccurate and meaningless stuff. Football is not about that. ''
I am not advocating taking emotions out of anything. I am saying having emotion doesn't make you devoid of common sense or balance.
Sol Campbell still left to go to a bitter rival in the same league - something that rarely happens. Martinez left the Championship to go to the Premier League, something that happens all the time.
It would be completely ridiculous to think Martinez would never leave. It wouldn't be completely ridiculous to think Sol Campbell wouldn't leave on a free to go to a bitter rival in the same City and League, it probably never crossed their mind that it would happen. Are you honestly saying you never thought it an absolute expected inevitability that Martinez would leave the club?
That is why the example is not related. One is a shocking and braizen transfer rarely seen in the game. The other is a normal club transfer seen every single year yet we are equating them.
My point being we had no right to expect him to stay here forever, it was completely unrealistic to think that. So to castigate someone for doing something that is perfectly expected and seen every single transfer window seems a tad bizarre. [Post edited 30 Jun 2018 1:19]
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| Roberto Martinez on 06:13 - Jun 30 with 696 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 01:16 - Jun 30 by E20Jack |
Please could you quote me properly when clarifying what my point is, instead of using half of it to represent something that is not my opinion. This is exactly what I said:-
''Of course it is, but you still have to remain realistic and honest otherwise debates are meaningless.
If you are being biased or irrational then that is absolutely not ok in a discussion about it. Well if accuracy is the goal anyway. Otherwise it is just licences hissy fits and histeria about inaccurate and meaningless stuff. Football is not about that. ''
I am not advocating taking emotions out of anything. I am saying having emotion doesn't make you devoid of common sense or balance.
Sol Campbell still left to go to a bitter rival in the same league - something that rarely happens. Martinez left the Championship to go to the Premier League, something that happens all the time.
It would be completely ridiculous to think Martinez would never leave. It wouldn't be completely ridiculous to think Sol Campbell wouldn't leave on a free to go to a bitter rival in the same City and League, it probably never crossed their mind that it would happen. Are you honestly saying you never thought it an absolute expected inevitability that Martinez would leave the club?
That is why the example is not related. One is a shocking and braizen transfer rarely seen in the game. The other is a normal club transfer seen every single year yet we are equating them.
My point being we had no right to expect him to stay here forever, it was completely unrealistic to think that. So to castigate someone for doing something that is perfectly expected and seen every single transfer window seems a tad bizarre. [Post edited 30 Jun 2018 1:19]
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If you honestly think Martinez leaving was exactly the same as every other manager leaving for a club in a higher division, then possibly you are more of an observer than a fan. | | | |
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