| Roberto Martinez 21:38 - Jun 28 with 17748 views | SgorioFruit |
Turned Swansea City FC into one of the most attractive playing football clubs in the whole of the British isles. Massively influential in putting the foundations in for SCFC to become a model club that would rise from league 1 to Premier league in a matter of few years.
And he has also just beaten England in a World Cup game.
If you were told that was going to happen while he was playing for us down the vetch you would have thought you were dreaming.
I’d like to buy that man a pint.
Please discuss. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:28 - Jul 2 with 908 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:24 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
I haven’t misunderstood that at all. Debates need to be factually accurate yes. I couldn’t say ‘Martinez got us relegated’ or ‘he left and went to manage Cardiff’. They would be factually inaccurate statements.
It’s absolutely ok for me to say Martinez let us down, betrayed us, pissed on his legacy or whatever. Those are opinions, they are biased (I wouldn’t expect a casual observer to share them) but like all opinions, they aren’t facts and are down to the individual. Opinions are the essence of debates. |
You have misunderstood, quite clearly.
It isn’t about a debate saying he managed Cardiff, it’s about denying he did well elsewhere due to a bias. That is what this whole debate is about. You said “we can still feel angry” I responded in post 1 saying “of course you can but it’s absolutely not ok to dictate a debate where you are being biased about it” - you then went on to say it was a normal part of being a fan and ignoring you are able to see the situation as it was the new opinion are a passionless observer.. I factually told you that it was an incorrect statement. and the debate continued.
You can have your own opinions yes, but you can’t have our own facts. And it is facts you have attempted to argue. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:34 - Jul 2 with 900 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:12 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Yes he was referring to an exchange we had long ago when he was also losing a debate so ended up questioning my “fandom” the similarities were quite stark in fact. I knew what he was on about and responded to him - I didn’t know you would see it as an opportunity to pick up and run with.
I wrote quite clearly ONE OF in the post you responded to, it’s quite a significant change, strange of you not to pick it up.
I don’t know all 2500 fans. Some I imagine are dead. That’s a base minimum, I would certainly say I was in the conversation when discussing biggest fan. But it is something you will never be able to prove. Unless you can of course? Feel free.
But it could provide you a topic of respite I suppose as you are floundering in the actual debate now that it turns out you haven’t even understood it from post 1. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 10:16]
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You changed it to ‘one of’ after I questioned you being ‘without doubt’ our biggest fan over the last 21/25 years.
I said that was a spectacular statement and I stand by it.
You’ve subsequently watered it down to the fact that you were going while we were in league two and are still going now. If Darran wants to question your ‘fandom’ that’s his business. I don’t know how much of a fan you are and I don’t care.
In the context it appeared, I was a bit staggered by ‘without doubt’ though, I must admit. Thank you for correcting that. |  | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:36 - Jul 2 with 896 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:28 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
You have misunderstood, quite clearly.
It isn’t about a debate saying he managed Cardiff, it’s about denying he did well elsewhere due to a bias. That is what this whole debate is about. You said “we can still feel angry” I responded in post 1 saying “of course you can but it’s absolutely not ok to dictate a debate where you are being biased about it” - you then went on to say it was a normal part of being a fan and ignoring you are able to see the situation as it was the new opinion are a passionless observer.. I factually told you that it was an incorrect statement. and the debate continued.
You can have your own opinions yes, but you can’t have our own facts. And it is facts you have attempted to argue. |
Which facts have I argued? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:39 - Jul 2 with 889 views | Darran |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:34 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
You changed it to ‘one of’ after I questioned you being ‘without doubt’ our biggest fan over the last 21/25 years.
I said that was a spectacular statement and I stand by it.
You’ve subsequently watered it down to the fact that you were going while we were in league two and are still going now. If Darran wants to question your ‘fandom’ that’s his business. I don’t know how much of a fan you are and I don’t care.
In the context it appeared, I was a bit staggered by ‘without doubt’ though, I must admit. Thank you for correcting that. |
But he hasn’t edited his post mun. |  |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:40 - Jul 2 with 888 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:34 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
You changed it to ‘one of’ after I questioned you being ‘without doubt’ our biggest fan over the last 21/25 years.
I said that was a spectacular statement and I stand by it.
You’ve subsequently watered it down to the fact that you were going while we were in league two and are still going now. If Darran wants to question your ‘fandom’ that’s his business. I don’t know how much of a fan you are and I don’t care.
In the context it appeared, I was a bit staggered by ‘without doubt’ though, I must admit. Thank you for correcting that. |
No I didn’t, stop lying. I added the last paragraph to get a response. The initial part was not touched.
It is a factual statement not a spectacular one. If it was a spectacular one then you would need to have evidence to the contrary which you don’t. You are just using it as a way to deflect from what is a horror thread in your part.
I have not watered anything down. The conversation was between myself and Darren. He made the statement not me, so there is nothing for me to water down. I know the comment he was referring to so said “without doubt” which I stand by - he comment I made regarding my fandom is without doubt accurate.
If I knew you were going to use it as a way to dig yourself out of a hole I would have corrected his lie sooner for you.
So you will have to let me know in future if you plan on using someone else’s silly lies as an out. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 10:47]
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:42 - Jul 2 with 876 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:36 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
Which facts have I argued? |
That if you are able to be honest about a situation then you are a passionless observer more than a fan.
I factually told you that is wrong.
You tell me what else you are arguing about, all I’m stating here is facts so God knows what you are arguing about. You tell us. They seem awfully strawman at present. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:43 - Jul 2 with 873 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:39 - Jul 2 by Darran |
But he hasn’t edited his post mun. |
Yes I did. But not the part he claimed. I edit most of my posts as I have a lot of fan mail I need to get through and end up rushing. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:46 - Jul 2 with 867 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:40 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
No I didn’t, stop lying. I added the last paragraph to get a response. The initial part was not touched.
It is a factual statement not a spectacular one. If it was a spectacular one then you would need to have evidence to the contrary which you don’t. You are just using it as a way to deflect from what is a horror thread in your part.
I have not watered anything down. The conversation was between myself and Darren. He made the statement not me, so there is nothing for me to water down. I know the comment he was referring to so said “without doubt” which I stand by - he comment I made regarding my fandom is without doubt accurate.
If I knew you were going to use it as a way to dig yourself out of a hole I would have corrected his lie sooner for you.
So you will have to let me know in future if you plan on using someone else’s silly lies as an out. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 10:47]
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This is not an out.
If you had replied with ‘one of the top 2500’ instead of ‘without doubt’ I’d have thought it was a bit egotistical, but I wouldn’t have questioned it.
But you are right. How highly you rate yourself as a fan is an aside to the actual conversation. | | | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:48 - Jul 2 with 860 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:42 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
That if you are able to be honest about a situation then you are a passionless observer more than a fan.
I factually told you that is wrong.
You tell me what else you are arguing about, all I’m stating here is facts so God knows what you are arguing about. You tell us. They seem awfully strawman at present. |
Which post was it? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:48 - Jul 2 with 856 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:46 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
This is not an out.
If you had replied with ‘one of the top 2500’ instead of ‘without doubt’ I’d have thought it was a bit egotistical, but I wouldn’t have questioned it.
But you are right. How highly you rate yourself as a fan is an aside to the actual conversation. |
Why is it egotistical? Do you not feel it is a relatively safe assumption? | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:51 - Jul 2 with 849 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:48 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
Which post was it? |
Which post was what? | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 10:59 - Jul 2 with 835 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:48 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Why is it egotistical? Do you not feel it is a relatively safe assumption? |
It probably is. I can see your logic, I’d just not consider myself better than other fans. Apart from fans that don’t go to games. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 11:03 - Jul 2 with 829 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:59 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
It probably is. I can see your logic, I’d just not consider myself better than other fans. Apart from fans that don’t go to games. |
It’s not about” better” it is about bigger. I know I will still be a fan if we were the conference. I think that covers a small % of us. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 11:10]
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| Roberto Martinez on 11:11 - Jul 2 with 813 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 10:51 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Which post was what? |
The passionless observer bit. I know I said it. I can’t remember the context though. I probably did say something along the lines of ‘some are more passionless observers than fans’. I doubt I said you had to be 100% one or the other. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 11:21 - Jul 2 with 802 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 11:11 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
The passionless observer bit. I know I said it. I can’t remember the context though. I probably did say something along the lines of ‘some are more passionless observers than fans’. I doubt I said you had to be 100% one or the other. |
This started when we had some posters clearly be a bit negatively biased towards Martinez since leaving in this discussion. I made the point that I am amazed so many are still biased towards him when it was obvious he wasn’t going to stay forever.
You said people can be irrational about it as it is emotive - I stated that fans still had to be honest in their views when discussing the situation. Then you went on to say serveral times that if you view it rationally then you are probably a binary, passionless observer more than a fan.
I told you that many fans are able to be passionate and still be able to be honest about a situation. You said being illogical and biased was part of being a fan and I didn’t understand what being a fan entailed. I told you that if your emotions still cloud your ability to be honest about it a decade later then that would probably make you emotionally unstable. You took that personally and got quite insulting and a nonsense argument ensued.
Then we went round in circles for 6-8 pages and we find ourselves here. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 11:45]
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| Roberto Martinez on 11:46 - Jul 2 with 786 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 11:21 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
This started when we had some posters clearly be a bit negatively biased towards Martinez since leaving in this discussion. I made the point that I am amazed so many are still biased towards him when it was obvious he wasn’t going to stay forever.
You said people can be irrational about it as it is emotive - I stated that fans still had to be honest in their views when discussing the situation. Then you went on to say serveral times that if you view it rationally then you are probably a binary, passionless observer more than a fan.
I told you that many fans are able to be passionate and still be able to be honest about a situation. You said being illogical and biased was part of being a fan and I didn’t understand what being a fan entailed. I told you that if your emotions still cloud your ability to be honest about it a decade later then that would probably make you emotionally unstable. You took that personally and got quite insulting and a nonsense argument ensued.
Then we went round in circles for 6-8 pages and we find ourselves here. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 11:45]
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I’m still biased against him. I didn’t like the way he left the club and therefore don’t particularly like him as an individual. That happens all the time with fans and old players/managers. It doesn’t mean I’m going to say he’s a bad manager. Fair enough, that bit was about other people though.
What I actually said, was that if you ONLY view it logically and take all the emotion out if it, whether that emotion is rational and impartial or not, you are probably more of an observer than a fan. Not once have I said ‘fans’ have to base their opinion solely on emotion and not apply any common sense or rationale. That’s how you appear to have interpreted it?
And I didn’t take it personally at all. I said something like ‘I’d rather be an emotionally unstable fan than a binary, colourless one’. Personally, I think that’s fair comment. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 12:00 - Jul 2 with 779 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 11:46 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
I’m still biased against him. I didn’t like the way he left the club and therefore don’t particularly like him as an individual. That happens all the time with fans and old players/managers. It doesn’t mean I’m going to say he’s a bad manager. Fair enough, that bit was about other people though.
What I actually said, was that if you ONLY view it logically and take all the emotion out if it, whether that emotion is rational and impartial or not, you are probably more of an observer than a fan. Not once have I said ‘fans’ have to base their opinion solely on emotion and not apply any common sense or rationale. That’s how you appear to have interpreted it?
And I didn’t take it personally at all. I said something like ‘I’d rather be an emotionally unstable fan than a binary, colourless one’. Personally, I think that’s fair comment. |
Then how are you biased against him? Not liking someone and being biased about them are two differing things. Yes fans ensnared up not liking certain managers or players that move on, but that isn’t what we were discussing, we were discussing people being biased on debates about them when by definition the objective of a debate is accuracy, or the striving to reach it.
Your second bit was strawman then, it is something nobody had mentioned at any point in this thread. You certainly took my comment about emotionally unstable personally, look at your response to it. However I was not directing it at you, clearly. You also said being biased is part of being a fan which means if you aren’t they by your definition you aren’t a fan - and an observer as you labelled them as.
All I have done is make factual on topic points. You can be a passionate fan and still be honest. And it’s not ok to be biased in a debate on the subject. That is it. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 12:23 - Jul 2 with 768 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 12:00 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
Then how are you biased against him? Not liking someone and being biased about them are two differing things. Yes fans ensnared up not liking certain managers or players that move on, but that isn’t what we were discussing, we were discussing people being biased on debates about them when by definition the objective of a debate is accuracy, or the striving to reach it.
Your second bit was strawman then, it is something nobody had mentioned at any point in this thread. You certainly took my comment about emotionally unstable personally, look at your response to it. However I was not directing it at you, clearly. You also said being biased is part of being a fan which means if you aren’t they by your definition you aren’t a fan - and an observer as you labelled them as.
All I have done is make factual on topic points. You can be a passionate fan and still be honest. And it’s not ok to be biased in a debate on the subject. That is it. |
I am biased against him because I dislike him as person, despite not knowing him personally.
The second part wasn’t straw man. Please don’t imply that I spent 6 pages arguing that fans aren’t
allowed to apply common sense. If you want to argue against me saying that bias and irrationality are part and parcel of being a fan, then go ahead. What I haven’t said was that every fan has to have those traits or that they can’t think logically.
They are common traits in football fans and they do cloud judgement.
I don’t know which bits made you think i took anything personally. If you think that, it’s your opinion. I’m telling you factually I didn’t. I haven’t PMd you or thrown my toys out of the pram. Whether you choose to believe me is your perogative. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 12:34 - Jul 2 with 761 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 12:23 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
I am biased against him because I dislike him as person, despite not knowing him personally.
The second part wasn’t straw man. Please don’t imply that I spent 6 pages arguing that fans aren’t
allowed to apply common sense. If you want to argue against me saying that bias and irrationality are part and parcel of being a fan, then go ahead. What I haven’t said was that every fan has to have those traits or that they can’t think logically.
They are common traits in football fans and they do cloud judgement.
I don’t know which bits made you think i took anything personally. If you think that, it’s your opinion. I’m telling you factually I didn’t. I haven’t PMd you or thrown my toys out of the pram. Whether you choose to believe me is your perogative. |
That doesn’t mean you are biased, it means you don’t like him. They don’t mean the same thing.
You were arguing that fans couldn’t apply common sense. You said it was part of being a fan and if I disagreed then I was passionless, binary, robotic and an observer not a fan. Let’s not forget that my point has always from word 1 been about in the context of debate. I’d you were arguing with me for 6 pages about something else then that is strawman, as it is a point nobody had made.
You certainly appeared to take it personally, in fact you immediately took it as if it was aimed at you personally as you immediately defended the position from a personal point of view and then went on to dish out personal barbs. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 12:54 - Jul 2 with 750 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 12:34 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
That doesn’t mean you are biased, it means you don’t like him. They don’t mean the same thing.
You were arguing that fans couldn’t apply common sense. You said it was part of being a fan and if I disagreed then I was passionless, binary, robotic and an observer not a fan. Let’s not forget that my point has always from word 1 been about in the context of debate. I’d you were arguing with me for 6 pages about something else then that is strawman, as it is a point nobody had made.
You certainly appeared to take it personally, in fact you immediately took it as if it was aimed at you personally as you immediately defended the position from a personal point of view and then went on to dish out personal barbs. |
Well that just isn’t true. Not once have I said fans can’t apply common sense. You are arguing against what you want me to have said, not what I did say.
I did say that fans that only rely on facts (ie exclude opinions, feelings etc) have a very autistic way of looking at it and are often binary, colourless, observers etc.
The only personal barb I can remember saying was that you have form for threads like this. It’s more of a fact than an insult anyway. The rest were generic criticisms of people who have very binary opinions, as I assume, the emotionally unstable one was? | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 13:09 - Jul 2 with 745 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 12:54 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
Well that just isn’t true. Not once have I said fans can’t apply common sense. You are arguing against what you want me to have said, not what I did say.
I did say that fans that only rely on facts (ie exclude opinions, feelings etc) have a very autistic way of looking at it and are often binary, colourless, observers etc.
The only personal barb I can remember saying was that you have form for threads like this. It’s more of a fact than an insult anyway. The rest were generic criticisms of people who have very binary opinions, as I assume, the emotionally unstable one was? |
You did say that. If not and you meant in general then that is strawman as nobody was talking about that. You used the autism barb, the non fan barb, the egotistical barb and the emotionless binary robot barb. Again, I only ever made a point around discussions being honest, so you either were unnecessarily and disingenuously rude or created a strawman point to argue against.
It is you have form for this though, that is what you failed to note. Threads like this that I am involved in is simply based on fact and people falling over themselves to try and disprove the facts. Let’s be honest here, you don’t have the “fan base” I do, so competitive form for these threads isn’t a fair comparison.
Yours however are based on opinion, which is ironic considering you continuously accuse me of not acknowledging other people’s opinions - even though my debates are rarely if ever, involve opinion. | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 13:21 - Jul 2 with 736 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Roberto Martinez on 13:09 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
You did say that. If not and you meant in general then that is strawman as nobody was talking about that. You used the autism barb, the non fan barb, the egotistical barb and the emotionless binary robot barb. Again, I only ever made a point around discussions being honest, so you either were unnecessarily and disingenuously rude or created a strawman point to argue against.
It is you have form for this though, that is what you failed to note. Threads like this that I am involved in is simply based on fact and people falling over themselves to try and disprove the facts. Let’s be honest here, you don’t have the “fan base” I do, so competitive form for these threads isn’t a fair comparison.
Yours however are based on opinion, which is ironic considering you continuously accuse me of not acknowledging other people’s opinions - even though my debates are rarely if ever, involve opinion. |
<<Yours however are based on opinion, which is ironic considering you continuously accuse me of not acknowledging other people’s opinions - even though my debates are rarely if ever, involve opinion >>
Except in the thread where you said, and I quote:
<<I completely agree Res, you can tell by just looking at him, he's special>>
When there was a debate regarding Tammy Abraham  |  | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 13:28 - Jul 2 with 731 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 13:21 - Jul 2 by 34dfgdf54 |
<<Yours however are based on opinion, which is ironic considering you continuously accuse me of not acknowledging other people’s opinions - even though my debates are rarely if ever, involve opinion >>
Except in the thread where you said, and I quote:
<<I completely agree Res, you can tell by just looking at him, he's special>>
When there was a debate regarding Tammy Abraham |
Absolutely, stand by it too.
A rare breed is Tammy.
Your point? | |
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| Roberto Martinez on 13:55 - Jul 2 with 705 views | jack247 |
| Roberto Martinez on 13:09 - Jul 2 by E20Jack |
You did say that. If not and you meant in general then that is strawman as nobody was talking about that. You used the autism barb, the non fan barb, the egotistical barb and the emotionless binary robot barb. Again, I only ever made a point around discussions being honest, so you either were unnecessarily and disingenuously rude or created a strawman point to argue against.
It is you have form for this though, that is what you failed to note. Threads like this that I am involved in is simply based on fact and people falling over themselves to try and disprove the facts. Let’s be honest here, you don’t have the “fan base” I do, so competitive form for these threads isn’t a fair comparison.
Yours however are based on opinion, which is ironic considering you continuously accuse me of not acknowledging other people’s opinions - even though my debates are rarely if ever, involve opinion. |
Hold on a minute? You don’t have form for threads like this and I do? Seriously?
By ‘fan base’ I’m guessing you mean I don’t regularly get accused of being a troll?
And as for the first paragraph, all those are characteristics of fans who solely base their opinion on pure tangible facts. They weren’t intended as personal digs. Some may apply to you, they may not. | | | |
| Roberto Martinez on 14:04 - Jul 2 with 695 views | E20Jack |
| Roberto Martinez on 13:55 - Jul 2 by jack247 |
Hold on a minute? You don’t have form for threads like this and I do? Seriously?
By ‘fan base’ I’m guessing you mean I don’t regularly get accused of being a troll?
And as for the first paragraph, all those are characteristics of fans who solely base their opinion on pure tangible facts. They weren’t intended as personal digs. Some may apply to you, they may not. |
Absolutely. My point being any form I have for threads such as this is due to my online fanbase, those threads in the main are built in fact with me. You are no stranger threads like this either, yet yours is usually opinion based.
No, I don’t mean people calling you or anyone else a troll, why would that be a fanbase?. Are you being disingenuous again? I mean the people who follow around someone they admire on the internet due to their ability to debate common sense scenarios and see it as a challenge to debate with them. Even if it is based on fact. Those same people do then get frustrated and start labelling “troll” if that is what you are referring to?
Then your last paragraph is strawman. At no point did anyone say that. You were replying to me who made a point based on honest debate. You created the scenario you are now talking about, you were essentially arguing with yourself. [Post edited 2 Jul 2018 14:14]
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