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Should we have a second referendum? 13:04 - Oct 15 with 9530 viewsItchySphincter

Should we have a second referendum?


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Should we have a second referendum? on 17:44 - Oct 16 with 999 viewsItchySphincter

Back on topic - I'd say reluctantly that we probably should have another referendum now that people can make a more informed decision.

The Brexiteers that based their vote on legitimate knowledge, xenephobia or stupidity have no reason to change their vote but those who were duped by the vanity project of Farage or the ruthless personal ambition of Johnson and Gove have had a chance to recalibrate now that they're aware that the NHS won't be £350,000,000 a day better off. Likewise, remainers whose brains may have turned to mush in the interim have the opportunity to cast their leave vote.

If the PM had any principles whatsoever a general election would be called and all the parties would get an opportunity to show their true colours by including a second referendum, or not, in their manifesto.
[Post edited 16 Oct 2018 17:45]

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Should we have a second referendum? on 18:24 - Oct 16 with 966 viewsCatullus

Should we have a second referendum? on 17:23 - Oct 16 by sherpajacob

"The net gain in taxes is all well and good if the gain is enough to cover the costs incurred by the immigrant families"


That's what a net gain is!

They contribute more than they take out. That means their contribution to services and infrastructure is more than their consumption of services and infrastructure. its really not that difficult a concept. So there is a net gain which can be spent elsewhere

The only bit of Germany, I left out is the bit that 30 years ago was under the control of the soviet union. So wales and Cornwall are now on a par with French Caribbean colonies and the former east Germany.

rather than the daily mail try reading something that's' been researched properly.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac

Let me point out the conclusions on page 107-109

Public Finances
EEA migrants, especially those from EU13+, pay more in taxes than they receive in welfare benefits and consume in public services.
Public services: Health
EEA migrants make a larger contribution both in terms of money and work to the NHS than they receive in health services. No evidence that migration has reduced the quality of healthcare.
Public Services: Social Care
EEA migrants are a small but increasing share of social care workforce. Very few EEA migrants receive social care.


I shall clarify, working immigrants give a net gain in taxes but many immigrants are not, or are illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, then there's the criminals and yes.....NHS health tourists.
Working immigrants is what I should have said so I apologise.

it is still a widely argued point though, do immigrants provide a net gain? It's better if you just read the link,

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-re

It explains it better than I do!! It does say though that there is no guarantee (my words) that immigrants provide a net gain.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Should we have a second referendum? on 18:45 - Oct 16 with 952 viewsJango

Should we have a second referendum? on 12:28 - Oct 16 by sherpajacob

so Polish builders, Spanish nurses, Dutch teachers, Hungarian dentists should all be very welcome.


The infrastructure is groaning though austerity measures and lack of investment. EU immigrants as a group put more into the economy than they take out.


Shouldn’t be looked at as a group though should they. That’s the main problem. All well and good the high flying doctors and dentists and engineers contributing high sums of tax, but those figures shouldn’t be used to hide the ones that pay no tax at all. If they are not needed they shouldn’t be coming here clogging up our services.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 18:51 - Oct 16 with 943 viewssherpajacob

Should we have a second referendum? on 18:24 - Oct 16 by Catullus

I shall clarify, working immigrants give a net gain in taxes but many immigrants are not, or are illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, then there's the criminals and yes.....NHS health tourists.
Working immigrants is what I should have said so I apologise.

it is still a widely argued point though, do immigrants provide a net gain? It's better if you just read the link,

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-re

It explains it better than I do!! It does say though that there is no guarantee (my words) that immigrants provide a net gain.


Illegal immigrants and criminals.?

If you cannot see the gaping flaw in your argument,.?

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Should we have a second referendum? on 19:02 - Oct 16 with 934 viewssherpajacob

Should we have a second referendum? on 18:24 - Oct 16 by Catullus

I shall clarify, working immigrants give a net gain in taxes but many immigrants are not, or are illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, then there's the criminals and yes.....NHS health tourists.
Working immigrants is what I should have said so I apologise.

it is still a widely argued point though, do immigrants provide a net gain? It's better if you just read the link,

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-re

It explains it better than I do!! It does say though that there is no guarantee (my words) that immigrants provide a net gain.


Your words indeed.

Here are the exact words of the link you provided..

The latest findings estimate that recent immigrants from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 (mainly eastern European) contributed £1.12 for every £1 received. Those from the rest of the EU put in £1.64 for every £1.

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Should we have a second referendum? on 19:18 - Oct 16 with 915 viewstrampie

Should we have a second referendum? on 18:45 - Oct 16 by Jango

Shouldn’t be looked at as a group though should they. That’s the main problem. All well and good the high flying doctors and dentists and engineers contributing high sums of tax, but those figures shouldn’t be used to hide the ones that pay no tax at all. If they are not needed they shouldn’t be coming here clogging up our services.


High earners don't pay high levels of tax.

Continually being banned by Planet Swans for Porthcawl and then being reinstated.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 19:31 - Oct 16 with 904 viewsJango

Should we have a second referendum? on 19:18 - Oct 16 by trampie

High earners don't pay high levels of tax.


Avoided the point I made though I see. You keep throwing out figures of immigrants as a whole. That shouldn’t be how it’s looked at. It should be on individual basis.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 19:36 - Oct 16 with 897 viewsexiledclaseboy

The poll we had in here in the run up to the referendum in June 2016 ended up mirroring the eventual result almost identically. This poll, if equally accurate, says that the majority want a second referendum.

The people have spoken. Make it so. Itchy is PS’s David Cameron.

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Should we have a second referendum? on 19:38 - Oct 16 with 895 viewstrampie

Should we have a second referendum? on 19:31 - Oct 16 by Jango

Avoided the point I made though I see. You keep throwing out figures of immigrants as a whole. That shouldn’t be how it’s looked at. It should be on individual basis.


I do look at it on an individual basis and its not good for the Welsh economy when old English retired immigrants come to Wales, the English NHS should pay us to treat them as they are costing us a fortune.

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Should we have a second referendum? on 20:37 - Oct 16 with 864 viewsCatullus

Should we have a second referendum? on 19:02 - Oct 16 by sherpajacob

Your words indeed.

Here are the exact words of the link you provided..

The latest findings estimate that recent immigrants from the 10 countries that joined the EU in 2004 (mainly eastern European) contributed £1.12 for every £1 received. Those from the rest of the EU put in £1.64 for every £1.


That's very selective, what about the age related stats? You know, the 85p for every pound bit?

As for the flaw, well illegals come here (as do criminals) and still cost us money but put nothing into the system. We have a hard job deporting many of them these days though ironically no trouble deporting people who came here legally, have worked and paid their dues but then made administrative errors like filling out the wrong forms or getting dates wrong.

Anyway, a second referendum is looking more likely because it seems we don't trust our politicians to decide these things anymore.
Maybe we should do away with MP's and move to some kind of online voting system? You know, a secure system where the facts are all displayed and everyone entitled to vote can choose yea or nay? We'd save a fortune and would only need to elect a PM and cabinet then. We could use the system to have votes of no confidence and sack them too.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Should we have a second referendum? on 20:59 - Oct 16 with 852 viewslondonlisa2001

Should we have a second referendum? on 15:51 - Oct 16 by krunchykarrot

My local has a cross section of society but yes i agree they don't have an understanding but not many politicians do either and i don't see it as criticism just debate.

The point i was trying to make is they don't care what the outcome of WTO rules as they want to regain sovereignty how this is a con job?


Because we’ve never lost sovereignty.

As outlined in the Brexit white paper.

The other part of the con job is that WTO rules are made out to be some sort of ‘not that bad’ status which people are happy to live with.

If you look at some products necessary for ordinary life, the tariffs under WTO are enormous. They will stop trade. People just don’t get that bit. Plus there are a whole host of areas not covered by the WTO.

Just ask yourself why countries scramble to agree trade deals if WTO rules are fine to live with.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 21:02 - Oct 16 with 850 viewslondonlisa2001

Should we have a second referendum? on 16:05 - Oct 16 by Catullus

The net gains are in different areas to where the strain/overload is happening. In our schools, class sizes are growing but we don't have enough teachers or classrooms. In my sons school, the number of pupils has more than doubled in 6 years, the parents of the mostly foreign kids are mostly working (a large number are Polish with a few African....one is half Chinese, half Finnish!) so the parents are paying taxes but at the same time climing child benefit, working tax benefits and using our NHS etc.
In hospitals we need foreign doctors and nurses because we haven't enough but the system that has faced billions in cuts still hasn't the resources for all the extra immigrants. The lack of homegrown staff is a failing of our governments which has cut trainig allowances/bursaries and made it so people can't afford to train as nurses or other much needed staff.
Crime, we have imported many criminals most of whom we can't deport because of the use and interpretation of the Human Rights act. We don't have the police we need so as crime rises they stop investigating so called low level crime. A particular problem in some areas where burglaries, car crime or anti social behaviour are high.

Having a net gain in tax and service industries is fine but the positives don't always outweigh the negatives.


If there is an overall net gain (which there is), it can only be the fault of UK government if that gain is not properly applied. Not the fault of immigration in the first place.

By definition if the net gain is lost, there’s less money available to be spent on anything.

The ne5vgain is calculated after child benefit, tax credits, universal credit etc, by the way.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 21:04 - Oct 16 with 843 viewslondonlisa2001

Should we have a second referendum? on 16:51 - Oct 16 by Catullus

Ummm no, immigration is the EU policy on open borders. If the Uk had allocated resources better we wouldn't need so many immigrants but that's a seperate issue really.

Saying they are net contributors full stop is not good enough because those immigrants and their families use resources which cost money. The net gain in taxes is all well and good if the gain is enough to cover the costs incurred by the immigrant families, that little issue is yet to be proved one way or the other as far as I know but it drives perceptions about immigrants which causes hostility.

As for objective one funding, with the WAG in charge it won't matter how much we are given (yes it's the DM but, I believe, factually correct)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2121916/How-waste-6-billion-story-Wal

You can cherry pick countries to back your argument but you can't leave out parts of Germany and there are 20 other countries. France got quite a bit of O1 funding which went to it's overseas territories in the Caribbean.


The gain is net so has, in fact, been proved. That’s the whole point.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 21:05 - Oct 16 with 842 viewslondonlisa2001

Should we have a second referendum? on 18:24 - Oct 16 by Catullus

I shall clarify, working immigrants give a net gain in taxes but many immigrants are not, or are illegal immigrants who don't pay taxes, then there's the criminals and yes.....NHS health tourists.
Working immigrants is what I should have said so I apologise.

it is still a widely argued point though, do immigrants provide a net gain? It's better if you just read the link,

https://fullfact.org/immigration/do-eu-immigrants-contribute-134-every-1-they-re

It explains it better than I do!! It does say though that there is no guarantee (my words) that immigrants provide a net gain.


Illegal immigrants won’t be put off by us leaving the EU though will they. They’re illegal.
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Should we have a second referendum? on 21:06 - Oct 16 with 839 viewssherpajacob

Should we have a second referendum? on 20:37 - Oct 16 by Catullus

That's very selective, what about the age related stats? You know, the 85p for every pound bit?

As for the flaw, well illegals come here (as do criminals) and still cost us money but put nothing into the system. We have a hard job deporting many of them these days though ironically no trouble deporting people who came here legally, have worked and paid their dues but then made administrative errors like filling out the wrong forms or getting dates wrong.

Anyway, a second referendum is looking more likely because it seems we don't trust our politicians to decide these things anymore.
Maybe we should do away with MP's and move to some kind of online voting system? You know, a secure system where the facts are all displayed and everyone entitled to vote can choose yea or nay? We'd save a fortune and would only need to elect a PM and cabinet then. We could use the system to have votes of no confidence and sack them too.


"As for the flaw, well illegals come here (as do criminals) and still cost us money but put nothing into the system"


you can't see the flaw can you?


Edit

Lisa can
[Post edited 16 Oct 2018 21:07]

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