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A 2nd Referendum 12:36 - Dec 1 with 7895 viewsScottishEddie

Why are leavers so oposed to this? Niw that they now all the facts and how great Brexit is going to be surely they are more confident?

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A 2nd Referendum on 19:35 - Dec 2 with 800 viewsDJack

Itchy your post needed to be in bold font, mate.

Wales gets plenty of money from the EU, it's the the Welsh Government that's telling you to go f*ck yourself, unless you live in Cardiff or Carmarthen.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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A 2nd Referendum on 20:13 - Dec 2 with 771 viewsjack_lord

A 2nd Referendum on 17:47 - Dec 2 by bluey_the_blue

The predictions were immediate recession which would require an emergency budget - funnily enough, never happened.

The forecasts ( or scenarios as Carney now calls them ) haven't exactly been that accurate. Every story of EU favouring companies looking to leave without actually leaving has been reported by media as fact. Companies making redundancies have had that cited as due to Brexit. Jamie Oliver blames Brexit for some of his restaurants closing whilst ignoring the inconvenient facts that a) his food is shit and b) other of his restaurants were previously close. Every example of investment into Britain has, if reported, had "despite Brexit" tagged on to it.

We've seen scenarios, we've seen forecasts left right and center where the perceived outcome has been treated as fact without critical analysis of the methodology behind it.
Paul Krugman's views on the BoE claims?

"The Bank of England just released some very dire scenarios.
But their bad-case losses from a no-deal Brexit look extremely high. I mean, 8% of GDP was the kind of estimate we used to make for countries with 150 percent effective rates of protection.
I don’t understand how you can get that kind of cost without making some big ad hoc assumptions about productivity or something. And I have worried in all this about motivated reasoning on the part of people who oppose Brexit for the best of reasons.
As best I can tell, the big results depend on assumed relations between trade/FDI flows and productivity. It’s really important to understand that this channel does not follow from basic trade theory and comparative advantage; it’s a black-box story.
What we have are correlations between trade and investment flows and productivity that don’t really follow from standard models. Are these causal? There is surely room for skepticism. Yet that seems to be the big driver of the whole thing. So I’m worried.
Again, I’m anti-Brexit, and have no doubt that it will make Britain poorer. And the BoE could be right about the magnitude. But they’ve really gone pretty far out on a limb here."

Now, if Krugman can openly question the methodology and assumptions bheind the BoE forecasts ( downgraded to s cenarios by Carney ) what confidence can you have? It's not just BoE either, Treasury have been spectacularly wrong at times.


Krugman said that 2% would be a lot and that 8% puts us in the Russia category. These are based on the historical benefit that the UK has enjoyed as members of the EU

The economic flows of trade are a guestimate and the different models that have been forecast or viewed as scenarios but they are researched by very clever economists.

There is a guy from Cardiff University who has tried to come up with a much more profitable outcome and that is the best case scenario. I wish he was at least close to being right but our trade dealing with the US so far has been fraught with complexities including chicken of all things, but the US wants the best deal for them and not for the UK. That is the same as China and of course other nations. Again, Krugman is right that it is not simple trade theory or comparative advantage but as said above, we are playing against huge nations on our own where the odds are stacked in their favour.

Lord_Jack BA (Hons) MSc
Poll: The E U : Stay or Leave

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A 2nd Referendum on 21:34 - Dec 2 with 734 viewsGroo

How about best out of 5?

Groo does what Groo does best

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A 2nd Referendum on 22:32 - Dec 2 with 696 viewsKilkennyjack

A 2nd Referendum on 21:34 - Dec 2 by Groo

How about best out of 5?


How about where people are not lied to, and the Leave side does not commit criminal acts ?

Just a thought .....

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 YesCymru 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

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A 2nd Referendum on 22:52 - Dec 2 with 683 viewsA_Fans_Dad

How about the Government enacts the will of the people from the first Referendum, you know that democracy thing that all you leavers all deny.
There was absolutely no mention of any deal on ther referendum.
It sould have been leave and then negotiate.
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A 2nd Referendum on 23:00 - Dec 2 with 675 viewsDJack

A 2nd Referendum on 22:52 - Dec 2 by A_Fans_Dad

How about the Government enacts the will of the people from the first Referendum, you know that democracy thing that all you leavers all deny.
There was absolutely no mention of any deal on ther referendum.
It sould have been leave and then negotiate.


Will of the people was hijacked by the shenanigans of the populists. You all bang about democracy but it isn't a democratic vote if the process is subverted.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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A 2nd Referendum on 23:22 - Dec 2 with 662 viewsLeonWasGod

A 2nd Referendum on 22:52 - Dec 2 by A_Fans_Dad

How about the Government enacts the will of the people from the first Referendum, you know that democracy thing that all you leavers all deny.
There was absolutely no mention of any deal on ther referendum.
It sould have been leave and then negotiate.


That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum. As would a whole range of scenarios where we leave. And this deal barely touches the negotiations around the future relationship - most of that is still to come during the transition period, after we leave.

Do you see the problem with the referendum question? It was inevitably going to be a confused clusterfeck from the outset.
[Post edited 2 Dec 23:26]
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A 2nd Referendum on 23:37 - Dec 2 with 651 viewsScottishEddie

A 2nd Referendum on 23:22 - Dec 2 by LeonWasGod

That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum. As would a whole range of scenarios where we leave. And this deal barely touches the negotiations around the future relationship - most of that is still to come during the transition period, after we leave.

Do you see the problem with the referendum question? It was inevitably going to be a confused clusterfeck from the outset.
[Post edited 2 Dec 23:26]


Don’t confuse him.

Poll: Should the Americans invest and dilute the Trust’s shareholding?

1
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A 2nd Referendum on 23:53 - Dec 2 with 643 viewsWarwickHunt

A 2nd Referendum on 23:37 - Dec 2 by ScottishEddie

Don’t confuse him.


Too late.
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A 2nd Referendum on 06:36 - Dec 3 with 585 viewsHobo_Rodin

David Beckham
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A 2nd Referendum on 08:02 - Dec 3 with 561 viewsItchySphincter

A 2nd Referendum on 22:52 - Dec 2 by A_Fans_Dad

How about the Government enacts the will of the people from the first Referendum, you know that democracy thing that all you leavers all deny.
There was absolutely no mention of any deal on ther referendum.
It sould have been leave and then negotiate.


Gove, Johnson, Farage.

I’m starting to believe that there is an upside to leaving, ie, dumbos like you get what you wish for. Trouble is, the collateral damage is too high.
[Post edited 3 Dec 8:07]

CLEMENT OUT!
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A 2nd Referendum on 10:35 - Dec 3 with 509 viewsJACKMANANDBOY

A 2nd Referendum on 21:34 - Dec 2 by Groo

How about best out of 5?


How about we partition the country, we could have Remainia and Leavistan?

Besian Idrizaj Forever a Jack

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A 2nd Referendum on 10:38 - Dec 3 with 503 viewsHighjack

A 2nd Referendum on 10:35 - Dec 3 by JACKMANANDBOY

How about we partition the country, we could have Remainia and Leavistan?


You mean turn the M25 and Hadrian's Wall into a hard border?

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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A 2nd Referendum on 11:06 - Dec 3 with 490 viewsswan65split

Lets just leave. the remoaners can move to the eu.......simples.
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A 2nd Referendum on 12:45 - Dec 3 with 449 viewsA_Fans_Dad

A 2nd Referendum on 23:22 - Dec 2 by LeonWasGod

That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum. As would a whole range of scenarios where we leave. And this deal barely touches the negotiations around the future relationship - most of that is still to come during the transition period, after we leave.

Do you see the problem with the referendum question? It was inevitably going to be a confused clusterfeck from the outset.
[Post edited 2 Dec 23:26]


If you actually believe that "That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum."
then I feel very sorry for you, you are beyond Naive.
It was never incompetence, it was the plan all along.
If you think May's deal delivers any kind of Brexit then you know absolutely nothing about it at all.
Why do you think there is so much opposition from MPs (who just toe the party line) of all people?
[Post edited 3 Dec 16:05]
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A 2nd Referendum on 13:27 - Dec 3 with 423 viewssherpajacob

A 2nd Referendum on 12:45 - Dec 3 by A_Fans_Dad

If you actually believe that "That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum."
then I feel very sorry for you, you are beyond Naive.
It was never incompetence, it was the plan all along.
If you think May's deal delivers any kind of Brexit then you know absolutely nothing about it at all.
Why do you think there is so much opposition from MPs (who just toe the party line) of all people?
[Post edited 3 Dec 16:05]


The referendum asked one binary question. Remain or Leave the EU.

May's deal means we leave the EU, Brexit means brexit.

The problem ,which was always bleeding obvious to anyone with a brain, is all those leavers who say they knew exactly what they voted for, all voted for different things.

Some want Canada +, some EFTA, some EEA, some want just WTO. There is no consensus and no agreement because they all promised different things, many of which are contradictory.

The promises of vote leave were never deliverable, and now these people champion no deal, so that they can still blame UK woes on supposed EU intransigence.

The only people not worried by no deal are those already with sufficient assets to pay privately for their health care and children's education.

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A 2nd Referendum on 13:39 - Dec 3 with 408 viewsJango

A 2nd Referendum on 13:27 - Dec 3 by sherpajacob

The referendum asked one binary question. Remain or Leave the EU.

May's deal means we leave the EU, Brexit means brexit.

The problem ,which was always bleeding obvious to anyone with a brain, is all those leavers who say they knew exactly what they voted for, all voted for different things.

Some want Canada +, some EFTA, some EEA, some want just WTO. There is no consensus and no agreement because they all promised different things, many of which are contradictory.

The promises of vote leave were never deliverable, and now these people champion no deal, so that they can still blame UK woes on supposed EU intransigence.

The only people not worried by no deal are those already with sufficient assets to pay privately for their health care and children's education.


With the current deal we could be stuck in the custom unions indefinitely, have continued free movement and be stuck abiding by EU law. Every leave voter knew voting leave would end all of those. So no, brexit doesn’t mean brexit, stop being stupid.
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A 2nd Referendum on 14:22 - Dec 3 with 370 viewsHighjack

A 2nd Referendum on 12:45 - Dec 3 by A_Fans_Dad

If you actually believe that "That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum."
then I feel very sorry for you, you are beyond Naive.
It was never incompetence, it was the plan all along.
If you think May's deal delivers any kind of Brexit then you know absolutely nothing about it at all.
Why do you think there is so much opposition from MPs (who just toe the party line) of all people?
[Post edited 3 Dec 16:05]


The usual suspects will be along shortly to tell you that’s a conspiracy theory despite it being obviously true.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Poll: After dumping Leanne, who is Trampie’s latest crush?

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A 2nd Referendum on 14:26 - Dec 3 with 364 viewsBatterseajack

A 2nd Referendum on 12:45 - Dec 3 by A_Fans_Dad

If you actually believe that "That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum."
then I feel very sorry for you, you are beyond Naive.
It was never incompetence, it was the plan all along.
If you think May's deal delivers any kind of Brexit then you know absolutely nothing about it at all.
Why do you think there is so much opposition from MPs (who just toe the party line) of all people?
[Post edited 3 Dec 16:05]


That's obviously not true and is a conspiracy theory.
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A 2nd Referendum on 14:30 - Dec 3 with 358 viewssherpajacob

A 2nd Referendum on 13:39 - Dec 3 by Jango

With the current deal we could be stuck in the custom unions indefinitely, have continued free movement and be stuck abiding by EU law. Every leave voter knew voting leave would end all of those. So no, brexit doesn’t mean brexit, stop being stupid.


Turkey is in the customs union, Switzerland has freedom of movement and is a member of
Schengen.

are Turkey and Switzerland in the EU?
Where did it mention freedom of movement and customs union on the ballot paper?

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A 2nd Referendum on 14:35 - Dec 3 with 356 viewsBatterseajack

A 2nd Referendum on 13:39 - Dec 3 by Jango

With the current deal we could be stuck in the custom unions indefinitely, have continued free movement and be stuck abiding by EU law. Every leave voter knew voting leave would end all of those. So no, brexit doesn’t mean brexit, stop being stupid.


Your patron saint of leaving, Michael Gove, thinks May's Brexit deal its a cracking deal.
[Post edited 3 Dec 14:35]
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A 2nd Referendum on 14:40 - Dec 3 with 347 viewssherpajacob

A 2nd Referendum on 12:45 - Dec 3 by A_Fans_Dad

If you actually believe that "That’s pretty much what they’re doing (delays due to incompetence aside). May’s deal will deliver the outcome of the referendum."
then I feel very sorry for you, you are beyond Naive.
It was never incompetence, it was the plan all along.
If you think May's deal delivers any kind of Brexit then you know absolutely nothing about it at all.
Why do you think there is so much opposition from MPs (who just toe the party line) of all people?
[Post edited 3 Dec 16:05]


"It was never incompetence, it was the plan all along. "

You believe this is all a plan conceived and masterly executed by Theresa May.

You could be right, however one critical piece of evidence suggests otherwise. - Name something else Theresa May has conceived and executed with masterly competence.

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A 2nd Referendum on 14:51 - Dec 3 with 336 viewssherpajacob

A 2nd Referendum on 13:39 - Dec 3 by Jango

With the current deal we could be stuck in the custom unions indefinitely, have continued free movement and be stuck abiding by EU law. Every leave voter knew voting leave would end all of those. So no, brexit doesn’t mean brexit, stop being stupid.


Founder of vote leave, Daniel Hannan "staying within a common market and with continued free movement of labour, but outside the political structure"

That's Theresa's deal isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/jun/25/tory-mep-daniel-hannan-te

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A 2nd Referendum on 15:45 - Dec 3 with 302 viewsJango

A 2nd Referendum on 14:30 - Dec 3 by sherpajacob

Turkey is in the customs union, Switzerland has freedom of movement and is a member of
Schengen.

are Turkey and Switzerland in the EU?
Where did it mention freedom of movement and customs union on the ballot paper?


If you’re gonna keep going on about what was on the ballot paper then where did it say that we’d have another vote after 2 years? cos you lot don’t half go on about one.
[Post edited 3 Dec 15:48]
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A 2nd Referendum on 15:48 - Dec 3 with 299 viewsJango

A 2nd Referendum on 14:51 - Dec 3 by sherpajacob

Founder of vote leave, Daniel Hannan "staying within a common market and with continued free movement of labour, but outside the political structure"

That's Theresa's deal isn't it?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/jun/25/tory-mep-daniel-hannan-te


People voted on the back of what the prime minster said the deal meant, not that donkey.
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