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The 'Democracy' thread. 11:30 - Dec 12 with 10261 viewsItchySphincter

Brexit - No, you can't have a second vote because you don't like it anymore, it's undemocratic.

Tory Party - Yes, we can vote out the PM that we voted in twice because we don't like her anymore, that's democracy.


‘……. like a moth to Itchy’s flame ……’
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:48 - Dec 12 with 1008 viewsLeonWasGod

The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:21 - Dec 12 by jacktheripper

Just the way the EU likes it. Keep voting until its the correct result


If you read this it will explain why that happens and why it’s not quite as you describe it.

In short the No campaign plays on fear, and if those fears are listened to and removed through guarantees/amendments people are more likely to agree with what’s on the table. Once the No campaign fears have been taken away, the Yes side can use the fear of what would be lost if the treaty isn’t adopted.

Worth noting that it’s the individual countries themselves that drive these second votes, not the EU.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2015/10/19/asking-the-public-twice-why-do-vote
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:13 - Dec 12 with 984 viewsItchySphincter

Would it be democracy to stop anyone over the age of 65 from voting?

The youngsters of this generation, especially those too young to vote, are going to have to have this Albatross around their necks for the rest of their lives. Sounds fair.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:16 - Dec 12 with 982 viewsexiledclaseboy

Corbyn’s best bet is to call a motion of no confidence tonight, immediately after May survives in the hope that the DUP or enough of the Tory hard Brexit loons are so desperate to get rid of her and her Brexit “deal” that they’d bring the entire government down to do it. May would have to resign if she lost a Commons confidence vote and the outcome of the ensuing election is frankly anyone’s guess at the moment.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:23]

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:22 - Dec 12 with 973 viewsJACKMANANDBOY

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:16 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

Corbyn’s best bet is to call a motion of no confidence tonight, immediately after May survives in the hope that the DUP or enough of the Tory hard Brexit loons are so desperate to get rid of her and her Brexit “deal” that they’d bring the entire government down to do it. May would have to resign if she lost a Commons confidence vote and the outcome of the ensuing election is frankly anyone’s guess at the moment.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:23]


The problem is that things are so factional and democratic processes such as the referendum are being undermined that anything can happen.
I think that the integrity and capability of politicians on all sides has been found out by the EU referendum.
It feels like there is room for a new paradigm in British politics.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:25 - Dec 12 with 967 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:16 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

Corbyn’s best bet is to call a motion of no confidence tonight, immediately after May survives in the hope that the DUP or enough of the Tory hard Brexit loons are so desperate to get rid of her and her Brexit “deal” that they’d bring the entire government down to do it. May would have to resign if she lost a Commons confidence vote and the outcome of the ensuing election is frankly anyone’s guess at the moment.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:23]


Corbyn would lose if he calls it now - DUP will still vote against him as all Tories. They may want May out but helping Corbyn? No chance.

Only way he could win a no confidence vote would be for DUP to drop May - only happens if her deal goes through.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:27 - Dec 12 with 965 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:22 - Dec 12 by JACKMANANDBOY

The problem is that things are so factional and democratic processes such as the referendum are being undermined that anything can happen.
I think that the integrity and capability of politicians on all sides has been found out by the EU referendum.
It feels like there is room for a new paradigm in British politics.


We have a fundamental disagreement on how the referendum is being “undermined” I’m afraid. To me this is clearly a case of following up the initial vote with a second confirming the wishes of the public now that more details are known. Choices - this deal, no deal or remain. I view referendums as inherently undemocratic anyway but the only way to invalidate or confirm the first one is to have another one now that we can all make a more informed choice knowing what the consequences will be. If the first referendum was the people making a democratic choice I don’t understand how the same people can say that a second is somehow undemocratic.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:30 - Dec 12 with 960 viewsItchySphincter

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:16 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

Corbyn’s best bet is to call a motion of no confidence tonight, immediately after May survives in the hope that the DUP or enough of the Tory hard Brexit loons are so desperate to get rid of her and her Brexit “deal” that they’d bring the entire government down to do it. May would have to resign if she lost a Commons confidence vote and the outcome of the ensuing election is frankly anyone’s guess at the moment.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 19:23]


Lib Dem could rise again on the promise of a second referendum. I predicted it in 2016.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:32 - Dec 12 with 956 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:25 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

Corbyn would lose if he calls it now - DUP will still vote against him as all Tories. They may want May out but helping Corbyn? No chance.

Only way he could win a no confidence vote would be for DUP to drop May - only happens if her deal goes through.


I’m not as convinced as you that the entire ERG would vote to keep this government amd it’s antithetical Brexit policy in place rather than take their chances with general election which may or may not increase their numbers. It would only take a few of them to break ranks. It’s unlikely and we’re all only speculating. But nit out of the question.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:33 - Dec 12 with 952 viewsItchySphincter

30 minutes to go..........

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:33 - Dec 12 with 952 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:30 - Dec 12 by ItchySphincter

Lib Dem could rise again on the promise of a second referendum. I predicted it in 2016.


I remember. But I doubt it.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:43 - Dec 12 with 944 viewsItchySphincter

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:33 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

I remember. But I doubt it.


I doubt it too, maybe if they hadn’t committed political suicide by bringing the conservatives in to power..... but who would have predicted back then that the lunatics would be running the asylum a few short years later, and that the voting public had chosen a course of xenophobia and returning the country to the dark ages?

I bet you’d vote for them if they promised an EU referendum.....

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:46 - Dec 12 with 940 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:43 - Dec 12 by ItchySphincter

I doubt it too, maybe if they hadn’t committed political suicide by bringing the conservatives in to power..... but who would have predicted back then that the lunatics would be running the asylum a few short years later, and that the voting public had chosen a course of xenophobia and returning the country to the dark ages?

I bet you’d vote for them if they promised an EU referendum.....


Chances are I’d vote for them anyway if there was an election tomorrow. It would be far from being the first time.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:57 - Dec 12 with 929 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:32 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

I’m not as convinced as you that the entire ERG would vote to keep this government amd it’s antithetical Brexit policy in place rather than take their chances with general election which may or may not increase their numbers. It would only take a few of them to break ranks. It’s unlikely and we’re all only speculating. But nit out of the question.


You're not separating Brexit deal and government though.

The deal May presents has zero chance of being passed; ERG don't need to be the only ones against it, plenty on all sides of the House are against it, Leaver and Remainer alike.

Keeping government intact, knowing May's deal won't be approved and defaulting to WTO rules is in ERG's interests for the most part.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:05 - Dec 12 with 916 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:57 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

You're not separating Brexit deal and government though.

The deal May presents has zero chance of being passed; ERG don't need to be the only ones against it, plenty on all sides of the House are against it, Leaver and Remainer alike.

Keeping government intact, knowing May's deal won't be approved and defaulting to WTO rules is in ERG's interests for the most part.


Neither the government nor parliament will allow a no deal scenario to occur.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:40 - Dec 12 with 898 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:05 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

Neither the government nor parliament will allow a no deal scenario to occur.


Time will tell.

Since EU publicly state they won't renegotiate, what is the killer plan? Bend over and accept their bogus backstop plan?

If no other deal is on the table then no deal is the only scenario honours referendum result, honours Tory manifesto of leaving custom union and single market.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:40 - Dec 12 with 898 viewssherpajacob

The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:35 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

She'd be challenged then anyway.

She should have gone after that piss-poor campaign in the last GE.


who is your choice then Bluey?

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:43 - Dec 12 with 893 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:40 - Dec 12 by sherpajacob

who is your choice then Bluey?


Tough call tbh - plenty damned by machinations in the past, Gove trying to re-invent himself for example. There are plenty in the public eye that I'd not personally favour, I guess Javid would have to be up there as a contender. Can't rule out a backbencher coming to prominence either.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:45 - Dec 12 with 893 viewslondonlisa2001

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:40 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

Time will tell.

Since EU publicly state they won't renegotiate, what is the killer plan? Bend over and accept their bogus backstop plan?

If no other deal is on the table then no deal is the only scenario honours referendum result, honours Tory manifesto of leaving custom union and single market.


Let’s say remain had won.

And in the two years following the vote, the UK had given up our veto, had indicated we were joining the Euro, an EU army, given up our rebate, voted for Turkey to join.

Would you still have said ‘it’s the will of the people’ or would you say ‘hang on, stuff has changed materially and we know more - we should vote again’.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:48 - Dec 12 with 888 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:40 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

Time will tell.

Since EU publicly state they won't renegotiate, what is the killer plan? Bend over and accept their bogus backstop plan?

If no other deal is on the table then no deal is the only scenario honours referendum result, honours Tory manifesto of leaving custom union and single market.


It’s not unheard of for manifesto pledges to be discarded.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:49 - Dec 12 with 884 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:45 - Dec 12 by londonlisa2001

Let’s say remain had won.

And in the two years following the vote, the UK had given up our veto, had indicated we were joining the Euro, an EU army, given up our rebate, voted for Turkey to join.

Would you still have said ‘it’s the will of the people’ or would you say ‘hang on, stuff has changed materially and we know more - we should vote again’.


I'd have said "WTF has May done really f*cking everything up" given non of what you postulate was ever on the table.

It was a binary choice - Remain as is or Leave. General election, the manifestos were well documented; Tories one leaving single market and customs union.

Has stuff changed? Stuff always changes - when were the public consulted over, for example, Maastricht? ( And if Major had done so then, we probably wouldn't have had a lot of the problems we have now ).
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:54 - Dec 12 with 879 viewslondonlisa2001

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:49 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

I'd have said "WTF has May done really f*cking everything up" given non of what you postulate was ever on the table.

It was a binary choice - Remain as is or Leave. General election, the manifestos were well documented; Tories one leaving single market and customs union.

Has stuff changed? Stuff always changes - when were the public consulted over, for example, Maastricht? ( And if Major had done so then, we probably wouldn't have had a lot of the problems we have now ).


It’s the equivalent.

The reality is that the promises leave made no longer exist. It doesn’t matter why. They don’t.

There is no windfall in the NHS. No one is falling over themselves to give us a great deal. The German car manufacturers or French cheese makers or Italian Prosecco makers don’t give a toss.

There isn’t a deal which respects the GFA and sees us leave a customs union. The economics are shocking. It’s all complete nonsense.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:57 - Dec 12 with 876 viewsFlashberryjack

The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:13 - Dec 12 by ItchySphincter

Would it be democracy to stop anyone over the age of 65 from voting?

The youngsters of this generation, especially those too young to vote, are going to have to have this Albatross around their necks for the rest of their lives. Sounds fair.


Anyone that voted leave should not be allowed to vote if there is a second referendum.
Lower the age you're allowed to vote to 12.

Bingo..job done

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:00 - Dec 12 with 867 viewsFlashberryjack

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:57 - Dec 12 by Flashberryjack

Anyone that voted leave should not be allowed to vote if there is a second referendum.
Lower the age you're allowed to vote to 12.

Bingo..job done


May won the vote.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:01 - Dec 12 with 866 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:00 - Dec 12 by Flashberryjack

May won the vote.


117 votes against her. That’s not good.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:04 - Dec 12 with 856 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:01 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

117 votes against her. That’s not good.


It's not unexpected though, is it?

There's no chance she survives to the next election, tonight was about getting through Brexit but the votes against show she's zero chance of getting the deal through as is.

I don't see how this has changed anything.
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