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The 'Democracy' thread. 11:30 - Dec 12 with 10259 viewsItchySphincter

Brexit - No, you can't have a second vote because you don't like it anymore, it's undemocratic.

Tory Party - Yes, we can vote out the PM that we voted in twice because we don't like her anymore, that's democracy.


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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:07 - Dec 12 with 881 viewslonglostjack

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:01 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

117 votes against her. That’s not good.


Hardly a ringing endorsement!

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:09 - Dec 12 with 874 viewsmajorraglan

TM has retained the confidence of the Conservative Party, by a fair margin. I suspect her decision to quit before the next General Election will have persuaded a number of MPs who could have voted against her to support her tonight. It allows her to take forward the poisoned chalice that is Brexit and those who are jostling to be the next leader can hide their time knowing she will have to do the difficult stuff and they can have a clear run at Labour and JC in a year or 2. No doubt JRM, Boris and the ERG will be well upset tonight, they have been out manoeuvred and are stuck with TM for another year unless she decides to resign.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:10 - Dec 12 with 866 viewslonglostjack

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:04 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

It's not unexpected though, is it?

There's no chance she survives to the next election, tonight was about getting through Brexit but the votes against show she's zero chance of getting the deal through as is.

I don't see how this has changed anything.


It hasn’t. Corbyn pointed out the complete irrelevance of this vote this afternoon. May is still a lame duck waddling away from a vote on her deal.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 21:12]

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:12 - Dec 12 with 858 viewsWarwickHunt

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:57 - Dec 12 by Flashberryjack

Anyone that voted leave should not be allowed to vote if there is a second referendum.
Lower the age you're allowed to vote to 12.

Bingo..job done


Anyone who voted leave should not be allowed to vote in the second referendum.

Job done.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:21 - Dec 12 with 840 viewssherpajacob

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:49 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

I'd have said "WTF has May done really f*cking everything up" given non of what you postulate was ever on the table.

It was a binary choice - Remain as is or Leave. General election, the manifestos were well documented; Tories one leaving single market and customs union.

Has stuff changed? Stuff always changes - when were the public consulted over, for example, Maastricht? ( And if Major had done so then, we probably wouldn't have had a lot of the problems we have now ).


- "when were the public consulted over, for example, Maastricht? "

There was a general election in 92 that Major won.

The referendum party spent a, fortune at the 97 election and got 2% of the vote and no seats.

The EU is really only a key issue for a tiny number of people ( mostly Tory right wing loons, and BNP and EDL types.)

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:24 - Dec 12 with 836 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:21 - Dec 12 by sherpajacob

- "when were the public consulted over, for example, Maastricht? "

There was a general election in 92 that Major won.

The referendum party spent a, fortune at the 97 election and got 2% of the vote and no seats.

The EU is really only a key issue for a tiny number of people ( mostly Tory right wing loons, and BNP and EDL types.)


Elections are fought on numerous issues.

Again, if Major had consulted the people over Maastricht then maybe, just maybe things wouldn't have eventually come to a head. Hindsight but I suspect that kicked the can down the road.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:28 - Dec 12 with 831 viewsmajorraglan

The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:11 - Dec 12 by hobo

No they won't. If the majority still vote leave now even when knowing full details of both options, then leave will be the option we will have to pursue.

It would be a landslide remain victory though this time as I think many people have realised they'd been duped the first time around


We now have elections every 5 year, but in the past we have had them whenever the Government of the day or MP’s called it. I don’t see that a referendum is any different. The Brexit vote took place nearly 2 and a half years ago and a lot has changed since then. People made their choice based on the information available at the time and a lot of lies were told, now a lot more information has become available on both sides and I believe people are in a position to make more informed choice. People change their minds at elections, why can’t they have a chance to change their mind at a referendum.

If the politicians can’t agree a way forward, then I think there is merit in considering a further referendum. If, as has been said the majority is still in favour of voting to leave after all the facts are out on the table, then that is the path we should follow. If the vote is to stay in, then so be it.

I was listening to the radio the other day, it was clear that immigration was a big factor in the way a lot of people voted, I suspect that whichever way a future vote went (if there as indeed one) a government wouldnt be prepared to deal with that issue.

The mess continues.

Edit - typo would changed to wouldnt in last line.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 22:36]
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:29 - Dec 12 with 828 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:04 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

It's not unexpected though, is it?

There's no chance she survives to the next election, tonight was about getting through Brexit but the votes against show she's zero chance of getting the deal through as is.

I don't see how this has changed anything.


It hasn’t changed a thing, it was never going to. That’s about 40% of her own MPs voting to remove her from office though. When you consider the number of Tory MPs employed by the government that’s a much larger figure than she’d have liked or expected. What little authority she has is further weakened and all the problems she had this morning remain.

She’s on TV now in full Maybot soundbit cliche mode.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:34 - Dec 12 with 815 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:29 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

It hasn’t changed a thing, it was never going to. That’s about 40% of her own MPs voting to remove her from office though. When you consider the number of Tory MPs employed by the government that’s a much larger figure than she’d have liked or expected. What little authority she has is further weakened and all the problems she had this morning remain.

She’s on TV now in full Maybot soundbit cliche mode.


What she has done is bought herself time, another year. Like her or not, ( and I want her out... ) got to admire her stickability.

What it's shown is it was a vote on the deal; ERG is what, 50-60 members tops. Almost double voted against the deal; I'm sure many want her out but voted for her due to her words of not leading for the next general election.

I suspect May was expecting a far worse result.

All it means now is May will continue trying to push this deal, with minimal support in HoC. She lacks the determination to really push EU on anything so we know the deal won't change one iota. It'll be voted down with zero Plan B - parliament can "demand" any deal gets signed to prevent WTO rules but that's bs - no deal will get enough support.

EDIT: Even if May was a steely negotiator, EU look at that and see she's not popular; after GE17 that's no surprise.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 21:37]
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:37 - Dec 12 with 806 viewsWarwickHunt

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:34 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

What she has done is bought herself time, another year. Like her or not, ( and I want her out... ) got to admire her stickability.

What it's shown is it was a vote on the deal; ERG is what, 50-60 members tops. Almost double voted against the deal; I'm sure many want her out but voted for her due to her words of not leading for the next general election.

I suspect May was expecting a far worse result.

All it means now is May will continue trying to push this deal, with minimal support in HoC. She lacks the determination to really push EU on anything so we know the deal won't change one iota. It'll be voted down with zero Plan B - parliament can "demand" any deal gets signed to prevent WTO rules but that's bs - no deal will get enough support.

EDIT: Even if May was a steely negotiator, EU look at that and see she's not popular; after GE17 that's no surprise.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 21:37]


No deal won’t get enough support.

Please bookmark.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:39 - Dec 12 with 803 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:34 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

What she has done is bought herself time, another year. Like her or not, ( and I want her out... ) got to admire her stickability.

What it's shown is it was a vote on the deal; ERG is what, 50-60 members tops. Almost double voted against the deal; I'm sure many want her out but voted for her due to her words of not leading for the next general election.

I suspect May was expecting a far worse result.

All it means now is May will continue trying to push this deal, with minimal support in HoC. She lacks the determination to really push EU on anything so we know the deal won't change one iota. It'll be voted down with zero Plan B - parliament can "demand" any deal gets signed to prevent WTO rules but that's bs - no deal will get enough support.

EDIT: Even if May was a steely negotiator, EU look at that and see she's not popular; after GE17 that's no surprise.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 21:37]


I’d love to live in your fantasy world aye. You look at things in front of you and see something completely different.

She’ll have to go if/when Parliament refuses to ratify her Brexit deal. She’s already lost the confidence of the House. All it needs is that vote to go against her and we’ll be in election territory.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:39 - Dec 12 with 800 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:37 - Dec 12 by WarwickHunt

No deal won’t get enough support.

Please bookmark.


I’ve been trying to tell him that all night. He doesn’t understand.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:43 - Dec 12 with 793 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:37 - Dec 12 by WarwickHunt

No deal won’t get enough support.

Please bookmark.


Who needs to support it?

Unless May's deal gets passed through, default is no deal.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:45 - Dec 12 with 788 viewsWarwickHunt

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:39 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

I’ve been trying to tell him that all night. He doesn’t understand.


Your sterling pastoral work hasn’t gone unnoticed. Unfortunately, Catullus and Bluey remain resolutely dim and impervious to reason.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:46 - Dec 12 with 786 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:43 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

Who needs to support it?

Unless May's deal gets passed through, default is no deal.


There are other options. Election, referendum, common sense.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:47 - Dec 12 with 783 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:45 - Dec 12 by WarwickHunt

Your sterling pastoral work hasn’t gone unnoticed. Unfortunately, Catullus and Bluey remain resolutely dim and impervious to reason.


It’s a cross I have to bear. It’s hard at times.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:47 - Dec 12 with 782 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:39 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

I’d love to live in your fantasy world aye. You look at things in front of you and see something completely different.

She’ll have to go if/when Parliament refuses to ratify her Brexit deal. She’s already lost the confidence of the House. All it needs is that vote to go against her and we’ll be in election territory.


And how will she go? If there's a no confidence vote. Corbyn will only call that when he can guarantee DUP will vote with him.

I don't disagree she's lost the confidence of the House. I'm disagreeing with your view she will be forced out by Parliament. She's survived a lot longer than I expected after all.

Winning the vote tonight has no doubt encouraged her that she's on the right course, that there's a chance her deal could get through - which is the worst result.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:51 - Dec 12 with 772 viewsexiledclaseboy

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:47 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

And how will she go? If there's a no confidence vote. Corbyn will only call that when he can guarantee DUP will vote with him.

I don't disagree she's lost the confidence of the House. I'm disagreeing with your view she will be forced out by Parliament. She's survived a lot longer than I expected after all.

Winning the vote tonight has no doubt encouraged her that she's on the right course, that there's a chance her deal could get through - which is the worst result.


I’ve been through this. Try and concentrate. If once May fails to get her deal through and indicates that she is prepared to take the U.K. out of the EU without a deal, there will be enough sensible Tory MPs who will vote with the opposition in a confidence motion to stop that happening. That’s if she doesn’t resign when it becomes clear her deal is toast.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:56 - Dec 12 with 762 viewsbluey_the_blue

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:51 - Dec 12 by exiledclaseboy

I’ve been through this. Try and concentrate. If once May fails to get her deal through and indicates that she is prepared to take the U.K. out of the EU without a deal, there will be enough sensible Tory MPs who will vote with the opposition in a confidence motion to stop that happening. That’s if she doesn’t resign when it becomes clear her deal is toast.


You seem to be living in a world of wishful thinking. There may be enough Tory MPs who vote with the opposition - there are many opposed to no deal who won't countenace voting against the government in a no confidence vote. Your claim is thus a possibility, not a certainty.

It's been clear her deal is toast for a long time, no resignation. Even if she resigns, that doesn't in itself trigger a general election.

So try and concentrate based upon historical evidence. May has an uncanny knack for clinging on. She'll be gone after Brexit, no doubt about that - and I'm sure many in the Tory party are happy she's there to take the blame.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:01 - Dec 12 with 754 viewsWarwickHunt

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:47 - Dec 12 by bluey_the_blue

And how will she go? If there's a no confidence vote. Corbyn will only call that when he can guarantee DUP will vote with him.

I don't disagree she's lost the confidence of the House. I'm disagreeing with your view she will be forced out by Parliament. She's survived a lot longer than I expected after all.

Winning the vote tonight has no doubt encouraged her that she's on the right course, that there's a chance her deal could get through - which is the worst result.


Her deal won’t get through - 117 of her own party just effectively voted against it.

Listen to Clasey. He’s a clever bastard. He’s a civil servant. He knows stuff.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:06 - Dec 12 with 738 viewswaynekerr55

The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:01 - Dec 12 by WarwickHunt

Her deal won’t get through - 117 of her own party just effectively voted against it.

Listen to Clasey. He’s a clever bastard. He’s a civil servant. He knows stuff.


But beware of him as he has flaws, those being aversion to dishwashers and Aldi 😁

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:22 - Dec 12 with 704 viewsWarwickHunt

The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:06 - Dec 12 by waynekerr55

But beware of him as he has flaws, those being aversion to dishwashers and Aldi 😁


He’s by no means perfect - he watches Dr. Who for a start.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:23 - Dec 12 with 704 viewsJango

The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:45 - Dec 12 by londonlisa2001

Let’s say remain had won.

And in the two years following the vote, the UK had given up our veto, had indicated we were joining the Euro, an EU army, given up our rebate, voted for Turkey to join.

Would you still have said ‘it’s the will of the people’ or would you say ‘hang on, stuff has changed materially and we know more - we should vote again’.


We would have remained for 2 years though. We haven’t left for 2 years so your argument is a load of crap. We have an EU and majority of MPs doing their best to make sure brexit doesn’t happen. Once we’ve left come back in 2 years with that argument.
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The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:30 - Dec 12 with 685 viewslonglostjack

The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:28 - Dec 12 by majorraglan

We now have elections every 5 year, but in the past we have had them whenever the Government of the day or MP’s called it. I don’t see that a referendum is any different. The Brexit vote took place nearly 2 and a half years ago and a lot has changed since then. People made their choice based on the information available at the time and a lot of lies were told, now a lot more information has become available on both sides and I believe people are in a position to make more informed choice. People change their minds at elections, why can’t they have a chance to change their mind at a referendum.

If the politicians can’t agree a way forward, then I think there is merit in considering a further referendum. If, as has been said the majority is still in favour of voting to leave after all the facts are out on the table, then that is the path we should follow. If the vote is to stay in, then so be it.

I was listening to the radio the other day, it was clear that immigration was a big factor in the way a lot of people voted, I suspect that whichever way a future vote went (if there as indeed one) a government wouldnt be prepared to deal with that issue.

The mess continues.

Edit - typo would changed to wouldnt in last line.
[Post edited 12 Dec 2018 22:36]


Excellent post.

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The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:35 - Dec 12 with 679 viewslondonlisa2001

The 'Democracy' thread. on 22:23 - Dec 12 by Jango

We would have remained for 2 years though. We haven’t left for 2 years so your argument is a load of crap. We have an EU and majority of MPs doing their best to make sure brexit doesn’t happen. Once we’ve left come back in 2 years with that argument.


Sigh.

It’s to do with information changing since the vote happened.

As it has. The ‘deal’ that was predicted (easiest deal in the world, remember) does not exist.
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