| The 'Democracy' thread. 11:30 - Dec 12 with 10334 views | ItchySphincter |
Brexit - No, you can't have a second vote because you don't like it anymore, it's undemocratic.
Tory Party - Yes, we can vote out the PM that we voted in twice because we don't like her anymore, that's democracy.
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:11 - Dec 13 with 1498 views | Jango |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 13:18 - Dec 13 by londonlisa2001 |
Ah, so you know why you and everyone else voted, I haven’t a clue why people voted as they did, and yet I’m the one that thinks I know better?
Brilliant.
And there aren’t ‘plenty of experts’ thinking the Ireland question doesn’t need to be an issue. There are plenty of chancers like Boris Johnson and JRM saying it’s not. Because they don’t care about anything other than their own personal ambition, wealth and power.
No one has been able to come up with an answer to the Ireland situation that doesn’t involve everyone on all sides being part of a customs union (whatever it is called). No one. They just shout ‘sort it out’ at the people they contemptuously write off as ‘remoaners’.
If your actual answer is you don’t give a crap about Northern Ireland and are happy for it to become part of the Republic, then admit it. But in which case you also have to admit that what you want involves breaking up the United Kingdom. I’m pretty sure you don’t ‘regain sovereignty’ by giving away a significant chunk of your own country. |
Where in my post did I say everyone? I said myself, friends and work colleagues, none of whom voted for the reasons you suggest. I’m yet to come across someone who says they voted leave because we can spend £350m on the NHS or because David David said it’ll be easy to strike a deal.
There has been plenty of expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border issue. You don’t want the issue to be solved that’s the problem. You’re always very quick to suggest that leavers hang on to every word mogg and Johnson which is garbage, yet you seem to hang on to every word coming from the EU. You seem to have zero respect for anything our politicians say but are quite happy to believe everything that comes from Brussels. |  | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:52 - Dec 13 with 1466 views | londonlisa2001 |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:11 - Dec 13 by Jango |
Where in my post did I say everyone? I said myself, friends and work colleagues, none of whom voted for the reasons you suggest. I’m yet to come across someone who says they voted leave because we can spend £350m on the NHS or because David David said it’ll be easy to strike a deal.
There has been plenty of expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border issue. You don’t want the issue to be solved that’s the problem. You’re always very quick to suggest that leavers hang on to every word mogg and Johnson which is garbage, yet you seem to hang on to every word coming from the EU. You seem to have zero respect for anything our politicians say but are quite happy to believe everything that comes from Brussels. |
You said in your earlier post ‘people didn’t vote leave because...’
All sorts of things have changed since the referendum.
If you are now admitting that you have no idea why anyone voted the way they did outside you, your mates and colleagues, your statement that people didn’t vote the way they did because of circumstances that have now changed is nonsense. You’ve no clue.
And there have been absolutely no expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border question. Not one. It’s nothing to do with Brussels. The majority of our politicians want to remain. The ones that want to leave, have been unable to suggest a way of solving the Irish border question. Which is why none of the people who support a hard Brexit on this forum can give an answer (obviously ignoring highjack’s solution that Ireland leave the EU). | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:57 - Dec 13 with 1461 views | Highjack |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:52 - Dec 13 by londonlisa2001 |
You said in your earlier post ‘people didn’t vote leave because...’
All sorts of things have changed since the referendum.
If you are now admitting that you have no idea why anyone voted the way they did outside you, your mates and colleagues, your statement that people didn’t vote the way they did because of circumstances that have now changed is nonsense. You’ve no clue.
And there have been absolutely no expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border question. Not one. It’s nothing to do with Brussels. The majority of our politicians want to remain. The ones that want to leave, have been unable to suggest a way of solving the Irish border question. Which is why none of the people who support a hard Brexit on this forum can give an answer (obviously ignoring highjack’s solution that Ireland leave the EU). |
It is a solution that would definitely work. |  |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:02 - Dec 13 with 1456 views | Jango |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:52 - Dec 13 by londonlisa2001 |
You said in your earlier post ‘people didn’t vote leave because...’
All sorts of things have changed since the referendum.
If you are now admitting that you have no idea why anyone voted the way they did outside you, your mates and colleagues, your statement that people didn’t vote the way they did because of circumstances that have now changed is nonsense. You’ve no clue.
And there have been absolutely no expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border question. Not one. It’s nothing to do with Brussels. The majority of our politicians want to remain. The ones that want to leave, have been unable to suggest a way of solving the Irish border question. Which is why none of the people who support a hard Brexit on this forum can give an answer (obviously ignoring highjack’s solution that Ireland leave the EU). |
Well I guess we both have no clue then. Thanks for clearing that up. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:08 - Dec 13 with 1452 views | bluey_the_blue |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:52 - Dec 13 by londonlisa2001 |
You said in your earlier post ‘people didn’t vote leave because...’
All sorts of things have changed since the referendum.
If you are now admitting that you have no idea why anyone voted the way they did outside you, your mates and colleagues, your statement that people didn’t vote the way they did because of circumstances that have now changed is nonsense. You’ve no clue.
And there have been absolutely no expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border question. Not one. It’s nothing to do with Brussels. The majority of our politicians want to remain. The ones that want to leave, have been unable to suggest a way of solving the Irish border question. Which is why none of the people who support a hard Brexit on this forum can give an answer (obviously ignoring highjack’s solution that Ireland leave the EU). |
The report co-authored by Hans Maessen sounds an interesting one that would resolve the Irish border issue, an issue that seemed to grow in importance once Varadkar was elected.
EDIT: Seems some non Brits seem to believe the EU should change tact somewhat...
[Post edited 13 Dec 2018 18:15]
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:19 - Dec 13 with 1435 views | Jango |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:52 - Dec 13 by londonlisa2001 |
You said in your earlier post ‘people didn’t vote leave because...’
All sorts of things have changed since the referendum.
If you are now admitting that you have no idea why anyone voted the way they did outside you, your mates and colleagues, your statement that people didn’t vote the way they did because of circumstances that have now changed is nonsense. You’ve no clue.
And there have been absolutely no expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border question. Not one. It’s nothing to do with Brussels. The majority of our politicians want to remain. The ones that want to leave, have been unable to suggest a way of solving the Irish border question. Which is why none of the people who support a hard Brexit on this forum can give an answer (obviously ignoring highjack’s solution that Ireland leave the EU). |
Swedish expert offers post-Brexit Irish border solution
There is a technical solution to keeping an open border in Ireland after Brexit, a customs expert has suggested.
Lars Karlsson, a former senior officer in Swedish customs, was giving evidence to the Commons Brexit committee.
The elements of a "smart border" would make it possible to have no physical infrastructure at the frontier, he said.
He described the current Sweden-Norway border as "60-75% a smart border with the potential to be improved further".
Not one you say? Quick search finds quite a few. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:23 - Dec 13 with 1432 views | longlostjack |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:11 - Dec 13 by Jango |
Where in my post did I say everyone? I said myself, friends and work colleagues, none of whom voted for the reasons you suggest. I’m yet to come across someone who says they voted leave because we can spend £350m on the NHS or because David David said it’ll be easy to strike a deal.
There has been plenty of expert opinions on how to solve the Irish border issue. You don’t want the issue to be solved that’s the problem. You’re always very quick to suggest that leavers hang on to every word mogg and Johnson which is garbage, yet you seem to hang on to every word coming from the EU. You seem to have zero respect for anything our politicians say but are quite happy to believe everything that comes from Brussels. |
“Zero respect for anything our politicians say”. The majority of our politicians would clearly prefer to stay in the EU. As would nearly all politicians in the other 27 member states. The barmy brigade have yet to show how the UK will be better off outside the EU. Even their most ardent proponent admitted that it might take 50 years to see any benefit. Brexit is a complete and utter farce. |  |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:33 - Dec 13 with 1414 views | WarwickHunt |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:08 - Dec 13 by bluey_the_blue |
The report co-authored by Hans Maessen sounds an interesting one that would resolve the Irish border issue, an issue that seemed to grow in importance once Varadkar was elected.
EDIT: Seems some non Brits seem to believe the EU should change tact somewhat...
[Post edited 13 Dec 2018 18:15]
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Tack, Bluey. Change tack...
Sailing metaphor, innit. |  | | |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:36 - Dec 13 with 1406 views | bluey_the_blue |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:33 - Dec 13 by WarwickHunt |
Tack, Bluey. Change tack...
Sailing metaphor, innit. |
Just about.
There are options with regards to Ireland which could well work. The fact they weren't persued is telling. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:41 - Dec 13 with 1395 views | WarwickHunt |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:36 - Dec 13 by bluey_the_blue |
Just about.
There are options with regards to Ireland which could well work. The fact they weren't persued is telling. |
David Davis couldn't find one.
Then again, he couldn't find his dick with both hands and a flashlight. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:42 - Dec 13 with 1393 views | bluey_the_blue |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:41 - Dec 13 by WarwickHunt |
David Davis couldn't find one.
Then again, he couldn't find his dick with both hands and a flashlight. |
Cool story bro.
It seems either EU had similar problems then. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:53 - Dec 13 with 1381 views | sherpajacob |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:36 - Dec 13 by bluey_the_blue |
Just about.
There are options with regards to Ireland which could well work. The fact they weren't persued is telling. |
This is May's deal isn't it.
EU say you can leave whenever you want,,providing you find a solution to the Irish border that satisfies Ireland.
What's wrong with that? |  |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:58 - Dec 13 with 1375 views | bluey_the_blue |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:53 - Dec 13 by sherpajacob |
This is May's deal isn't it.
EU say you can leave whenever you want,,providing you find a solution to the Irish border that satisfies Ireland.
What's wrong with that? |
Options were there that could nail the issue without the backstop being needed at all.
May failed to press for any of them, EU content to offer the bare minimum knowing May is a weak negotiator.
I sense nothing would satisfy Varadkar. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:38 - Dec 13 with 1345 views | Highjack |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:58 - Dec 13 by bluey_the_blue |
Options were there that could nail the issue without the backstop being needed at all.
May failed to press for any of them, EU content to offer the bare minimum knowing May is a weak negotiator.
I sense nothing would satisfy Varadkar. |
Varadkar has repeatedly said there will be no border no matter what happens. Whether he means it or not is another story. It’s only the people in Brussels that insist on a border. | |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 20:13 - Dec 13 with 1316 views | exiledclaseboy |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 09:22 - Dec 13 by Catullus |
This coming from someone who sees a referendum as inherently undemocratic. A basic definition of democracy,
democracy. A system of government in which power is vested in the people, who rule either directly or through freely elected representatives.
Taken from the Greek, Demos-the people, kratia-power or rule. So people power or people rule.
Yet you say giving the people a vote is undemocratic.
Then of course we have other democratic minded people on here saying things like don't let anyone over 65 vote, or don't let anyone who voted leave vote and of course the claim that only a small minority of people were actually bothered about the EU. A 72% turnout rubbishes the last bit, the first two things are the stuff of swivel eyed lunacy.
Give it 40/50 years then tell those now old people they can't vote simply because they are older. All their knowledge and life experience counts for nothing but young people obviously know everything?
So laid bare is a remainers true idea of democracy, anyone who disagrees with remain shouldn't be allowed to vote, how very authoritarian |
Fair play, Cats. Your abject failure to understand the points you try and fail to make, your continued inability to grasp basic concepts and your penchant for attributing things to me that I haven’t even remotely said have finally worn me down. I no longer have the capacity to deal with your inability to comprehend anything. |  |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 21:29 - Dec 13 with 1276 views | WarwickHunt |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:42 - Dec 13 by bluey_the_blue |
Cool story bro.
It seems either EU had similar problems then. |
Have another go, preferably in fûcking English. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 23:39 - Dec 13 with 1213 views | jack_lord |
I spoke to someone yesterday who told me she voted leave because the Queen should be able to do her job properly. |  |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 00:08 - Dec 14 with 1196 views | DJack |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 23:06 - Dec 12 by Jango |
Information that you choose to use has changed. People didn’t vote leave because David Davies said it would be easy to do a deal. People voted leave for all sorts of reasons end of story. You don’t get to decide why they voted the way they did. It has to be implemented. |
Jango, I'll comment again and perhaps you could give me your reply...
You : "People voted leave for all sorts of reasons end of story."
me: Which is why there MUST be a vote to determine whether it is what they voted for in the referendum.
Your thoughts? |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 17:46 - Dec 14 with 1124 views | sherpajacob |
a few issues with this.
Firstly I don't think it should have been a secret ballot. MP's are accountable to their electorate and their constituency party who have a right to know how they vote on key issues. Issues don't come more key than this.
However, the vote was supposed to be secret, and votes were cast on that basis, so it must be respected. Any attempt by whips or May's minions to undermine the confidentiality of the vote is criminal imho.
If there is substance in this story it is yet more evidence of her demagoguery and yet another attempt to bypass democracy. I'm old fashioned in this respect but if this is true she should be removed from office. | |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:23 - Dec 14 with 1101 views | Jango |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 00:08 - Dec 14 by DJack |
Jango, I'll comment again and perhaps you could give me your reply...
You : "People voted leave for all sorts of reasons end of story."
me: Which is why there MUST be a vote to determine whether it is what they voted for in the referendum.
Your thoughts? |
Basically remainers want a second vote in the hope leave voters have changed their mind. There’s not a lot of noise from leave voters as far as I can see. If there is to be another vote there’s not a lot I can do about it. I’ll vote leave again and given the amount of MPs that have refused to accept the result of the vote from the beginning, I’ll never vote again after that regardless of the result. | | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 19:10 - Dec 14 with 1080 views | LeonWasGod |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 23:39 - Dec 13 by jack_lord |
I spoke to someone yesterday who told me she voted leave because the Queen should be able to do her job properly. |
I’d like the Queen to do my job for me too, but it’s not likely to happen |  | | |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 01:42 - Dec 15 with 1024 views | DJack |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 18:23 - Dec 14 by Jango |
Basically remainers want a second vote in the hope leave voters have changed their mind. There’s not a lot of noise from leave voters as far as I can see. If there is to be another vote there’s not a lot I can do about it. I’ll vote leave again and given the amount of MPs that have refused to accept the result of the vote from the beginning, I’ll never vote again after that regardless of the result. |
Ok...If leavers change their minds and remain wins that is still democracy in action - I'm assuming that leavers who change their minds do so because they feel that the information they now hold changes their mind or that they feel that vote leave broke the law and their are now distrusting the leave campaign (or both).
Secondly, you say that if the vote is done again you will vote against and will never vote again. Does that mean when you previously voted in Parliamentary elections and found out that the party you voted for reneged on it's manifesto or passed the buck and had a free Parliamentary vote then from that day you never voted in Parliamentary elections again? Because there is no difference other than your misguided ire.
Edit: Just to say that your ire is not misguided but wasted as politicians and politics in general has always been that way so don't blame events on "remainers" blame it on our inept and capricious politicians. [Post edited 15 Dec 2018 1:46]
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| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 02:53 - Dec 15 with 1015 views | Bloodyhills |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 01:11 - Dec 13 by DJack |
"It would be a landslide remain victory though this time as I think many people have realised they'd been duped the first time around"
That is very dangerous (and flawed) thinking.
If there was another referendum a large hard core of the Brexiters would feel aggrieved and vote again for Brexit a small number would join them seeing the 2nd referendum as dubious democracy. A chunk of the remain voters will assume a landslide and not bother to vote...then it would be in the lap of the gods. |
Fair comment but I don't imagine that remain voters will be complacent and not bother to vote. If there is a 2nd referendum there will probably be a pretty high turnout and at least people will be basing their votes on more accurate information rather than an empty red box covered in dubious messages.
If then the vote is leave then fair enough. | |
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| The 'Democracy' thread. on 03:06 - Dec 15 with 1015 views | Bloodyhills |
| The 'Democracy' thread. on 14:24 - Dec 13 by Highjack |
Polls are nearly always wrong. |
I suppose you cut and now can just keep pasting that. | |
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