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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches 00:33 - Feb 12 with 1691 viewsWinner_

Let’s try and keep this civil and have a fair debate about what has been happening this week. Anyone wanting to just disrupt the board and the thread could you please refrain.

Lots of talk about this stuff on here in the last few days. It’s clear that now Jenkins has gone, the misguided anger, as predicted, needs to now go somewhere else, apparently it’s been sort of decided that it will head towards the Americans... although nobody knows why exactly. Nobody knows what they are wanting to change or what the alternatives are. The fanbase is in more of a mess now than it ever has been in the 25 years or so I have followed the club.

Ok so let’s go through them:-

Boycott of merchandise and refreshments etc - any money made from this stuff after costs will go to the club pot that is currently trying hard to service the hole that Dan James was nearly sold to help close. By restricting that avenue of cashflow, it would mean it is even more likely players like James will have to be sold.

So bear that in mind. You are more than welcome to do it, but just don’t moan when the transfer window comes around and we have to find the extra money that was budgeted for in merchandise etc that was withheld due to the boycott. It’s important when people are advocating for a certain action they also think logically about the outcome.

Marching - for a start I spent around 10-12 pages asking people what it is about the way the club is being run currently that you are trying to change by marching - not a single person was able to answer. The truth is nobody knows what they are marching for, they just want to get social media pics and feel like they are doing something even though they aren’t entirely sure what. The only semblance of any goal I heard was to get them to sell to someone else who would be willing to throw tens and tens of millions at the club and not expect it back.... aye, you and nearly every single club in the world.

All the above while the club is a handful of points outside the play-offs, it’s pitiful really.

The whole ‘movement’ perfectly encapsulated by one answer from a marcher to a WoL reporter last week:-

Fellow supporter Tony Sharpe from Gendros, who's been a season ticket holder for seven years, added: "I didn't renew my season ticket this year because the Americans are clearly not interested in investing in the club, they're just interested in taking from the club.”

7 years a consecutive ST holder... but didn’t renew this season? That’s a very familiar timeframe. Wonder what prompted him to buy a ST for 7 consecutive years prior to this one then. No, nothing coming to mind.

So what I’m proposing is that any action you take, if any, has a clear message a clear goal, a clear reason and a clear plan should it be successful. Let’s not forget this is our club so these things need to really be thought about and can’t be done haphazardly like we have been seeing.
[Post edited 12 Feb 0:38]
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 04:05 - Feb 12 with 1627 viewsPozuelosSideys

People wont like this thread, but he aint wrong.

Those people that have sunk the club to this position are HJ, Morgan, Dineen etc ie the sellouts. Thats where the vitriol should be aimed. They shafted the Trust by working behind their backs to make a sale and cut them out of any financial rewards that were obtained via the share purchase. They ran the club into the ground and threw it over the fence to the first possible buyer like a hot potato. Why do you think they snapped up the first offer that came their way? Yes, its because they knew the state of the financial position they had created and needed out before their millions disappeared into thin air due to relegation.

Im really interested now at the direction of the potential legal action. Should it be undertaken, who is the target? The Americans? Not sure whether that makes any sense. IMO it should be aimed straight between the eyes of the sellers. Not the Yanks fault that potato landed in their lap at the worst possible time.

DO NOT LET JENKINS, MORGAN ET AL GET AWAY WITH THIS. DO NOT BE DUPED INTO BLAMING THE YANKS ONLY

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
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2

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 06:11 - Feb 12 with 1581 viewsWhiterockin

Will boycotting refreshments have any immediate affect, if there is a contract in place for a private company to supply this service. If there is such a contract in place, it could in the long term affect the value of the contract on renewal, but would have no immediate effect for the board to be concerned about.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 08:26 - Feb 12 with 1418 viewsSwansea93

It doesn't look like many tickets have been sold for Sundays game.

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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 08:37 - Feb 12 with 1398 viewsbuilthjack

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 08:26 - Feb 12 by Swansea93

It doesn't look like many tickets have been sold for Sundays game.


I really don't see the point of boycotting the game, its a tenner for adults, a quid for kids. Staying away is not going to hurt the yanks, but it may hurt Potter and the team.
Sunday afternoon, the roads will be quiet, all those who want to get home quick can.
Really not sure how some think.

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5

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 08:46 - Feb 12 with 1380 viewsRiscaJack

I think that's a good post.

At present, the Yanks have done everything they said they were going to do. I don't agree with some posters who thought promotion or play offs were the target this year, they obviously wanted to be competitive, but were realistic in the sense that at the same time, if not in danger of getting relegated, they were willing to make financial decisions to protect the club from the shortfalls of getting relegated (happy to see James, Fer, Carroll, Montero go).

I have made a complete 180 from what I said on deadline day, I was devastated James etc were going, but on reflection after things had calmed down I can see their thinking.

I do believe Jenkins had to go, he has, so at present I'll be reserving my judgement on the Americans until the summer. I would be lying if I said I wasn't even slighly concerned with the rumours going about the place that they are looking to sell the Academy facilities etc though.
[Post edited 12 Feb 8:47]

JENKINS OUT

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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 08:56 - Feb 12 with 1334 viewsItchySphincter

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 04:05 - Feb 12 by PozuelosSideys

People wont like this thread, but he aint wrong.

Those people that have sunk the club to this position are HJ, Morgan, Dineen etc ie the sellouts. Thats where the vitriol should be aimed. They shafted the Trust by working behind their backs to make a sale and cut them out of any financial rewards that were obtained via the share purchase. They ran the club into the ground and threw it over the fence to the first possible buyer like a hot potato. Why do you think they snapped up the first offer that came their way? Yes, its because they knew the state of the financial position they had created and needed out before their millions disappeared into thin air due to relegation.

Im really interested now at the direction of the potential legal action. Should it be undertaken, who is the target? The Americans? Not sure whether that makes any sense. IMO it should be aimed straight between the eyes of the sellers. Not the Yanks fault that potato landed in their lap at the worst possible time.

DO NOT LET JENKINS, MORGAN ET AL GET AWAY WITH THIS. DO NOT BE DUPED INTO BLAMING THE YANKS ONLY


He's right.

I don't like what I interpret as subversive digs at the fans in general, but the rest in on point.

CLEMENT OUT!
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 09:11 - Feb 12 with 1310 viewsPegojack

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 04:05 - Feb 12 by PozuelosSideys

People wont like this thread, but he aint wrong.

Those people that have sunk the club to this position are HJ, Morgan, Dineen etc ie the sellouts. Thats where the vitriol should be aimed. They shafted the Trust by working behind their backs to make a sale and cut them out of any financial rewards that were obtained via the share purchase. They ran the club into the ground and threw it over the fence to the first possible buyer like a hot potato. Why do you think they snapped up the first offer that came their way? Yes, its because they knew the state of the financial position they had created and needed out before their millions disappeared into thin air due to relegation.

Im really interested now at the direction of the potential legal action. Should it be undertaken, who is the target? The Americans? Not sure whether that makes any sense. IMO it should be aimed straight between the eyes of the sellers. Not the Yanks fault that potato landed in their lap at the worst possible time.

DO NOT LET JENKINS, MORGAN ET AL GET AWAY WITH THIS. DO NOT BE DUPED INTO BLAMING THE YANKS ONLY


I agree that the sellouts should be the main target, but do you think the Yanks are blameless?
I imagine the conversation went something like this:

YANKS - Well, Mr J, we're sure interested in buying the club, but how come the people who own 21% of the shares aren't included in this negotiation? They do represent the fans, after all.

BIG NOSE - look, you don't want them involved, they put the kybosh on the deal the last time we tried to sell the club to shysters, er, I mean investors like you. Let's keep them out of it and we'll all get what we want.

YANKS - OK, Mr J, you know best. Feck the Supporters Trust, let's do it.

Or words to that effect.
[Post edited 12 Feb 9:12]
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 09:18 - Feb 12 with 1285 viewsjasper_T

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 09:11 - Feb 12 by Pegojack

I agree that the sellouts should be the main target, but do you think the Yanks are blameless?
I imagine the conversation went something like this:

YANKS - Well, Mr J, we're sure interested in buying the club, but how come the people who own 21% of the shares aren't included in this negotiation? They do represent the fans, after all.

BIG NOSE - look, you don't want them involved, they put the kybosh on the deal the last time we tried to sell the club to shysters, er, I mean investors like you. Let's keep them out of it and we'll all get what we want.

YANKS - OK, Mr J, you know best. Feck the Supporters Trust, let's do it.

Or words to that effect.
[Post edited 12 Feb 9:12]


Yanks: We want to buy controlling interest in your football club.

Huw & Friends: Okay, buy our shares and voting rights.

Yanks: Isn't there a shareholder agreement that says we have to offer to purchase evenly from everyone?

Huw: I've never heard of any supporter's trust.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 09:43 - Feb 12 with 1254 viewswestwales

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 09:18 - Feb 12 by jasper_T

Yanks: We want to buy controlling interest in your football club.

Huw & Friends: Okay, buy our shares and voting rights.

Yanks: Isn't there a shareholder agreement that says we have to offer to purchase evenly from everyone?

Huw: I've never heard of any supporter's trust.


The Americans aren't stupid and were fully aware of the Supporters Trust and what our share holding meant. We were shafted by both sides.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:19 - Feb 12 with 1185 viewsJesusJack

Saw this earlier:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47206376

Thought boycotting kick-off is an interesting idea as it's the best of both worlds. It's supporting the team whilst sending a clear message at the same time.

Poll: What was your expectation for this season?

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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:23 - Feb 12 with 1165 viewswaynekerr55

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 09:43 - Feb 12 by westwales

The Americans aren't stupid and were fully aware of the Supporters Trust and what our share holding meant. We were shafted by both sides.


Yes, but Jenkins and Dineen started it and Katzen/Morgan and the faceless expat twàt finished it

Misguided anger towards Jenkins? What part about he fúcked us off the field by selling to these mugs and on the field by playing real life championship manager don't people understand???

How many of you know what DP stands for?
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:32 - Feb 12 with 1140 viewsWinner_

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:19 - Feb 12 by JesusJack

Saw this earlier:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/47206376

Thought boycotting kick-off is an interesting idea as it's the best of both worlds. It's supporting the team whilst sending a clear message at the same time.


For what reason?
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:33 - Feb 12 with 1134 viewsJinxy

We are where we are unfortunately. For me, the most important thing to try and establish would be for the owners to fully and formerly engage with the Trust, so that they will be integral in all the decision making processes going forward (not just in the selection of a DOF), maybe even re-establishing voting rights & increase in share holding, who knows (all that is highly unlikely I know but that could form part of an out of court settlement re the ongoing potential legal action?).

If any guidance, change in direction or challenge is needed, then The Trust are the correct route - and if "we" are not happy with them, then stand for election etc.?
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:35 - Feb 12 with 1128 viewsjasper_T

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:33 - Feb 12 by Jinxy

We are where we are unfortunately. For me, the most important thing to try and establish would be for the owners to fully and formerly engage with the Trust, so that they will be integral in all the decision making processes going forward (not just in the selection of a DOF), maybe even re-establishing voting rights & increase in share holding, who knows (all that is highly unlikely I know but that could form part of an out of court settlement re the ongoing potential legal action?).

If any guidance, change in direction or challenge is needed, then The Trust are the correct route - and if "we" are not happy with them, then stand for election etc.?


The most likely outcome of successful legal action is that the trust can sell their shares at a good price. It's not going to give them any more control or say in the football club.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:38 - Feb 12 with 1113 viewsJinxy

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:35 - Feb 12 by jasper_T

The most likely outcome of successful legal action is that the trust can sell their shares at a good price. It's not going to give them any more control or say in the football club.


True, but I'm talking out of court, where pretty much anything goes. The purpose of the Trust is to have a say and keep a watchful eye over the running of the club, no? If anything's worth fighting for, it's that.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:46 - Feb 12 with 1090 viewsWinner_

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:33 - Feb 12 by Jinxy

We are where we are unfortunately. For me, the most important thing to try and establish would be for the owners to fully and formerly engage with the Trust, so that they will be integral in all the decision making processes going forward (not just in the selection of a DOF), maybe even re-establishing voting rights & increase in share holding, who knows (all that is highly unlikely I know but that could form part of an out of court settlement re the ongoing potential legal action?).

If any guidance, change in direction or challenge is needed, then The Trust are the correct route - and if "we" are not happy with them, then stand for election etc.?


This is the problem we have though. I don’t think that will ever happen, be that these owners or any other.

They have completely different aims and goals. The Americans just want a solvent club to make a profit on their investment, the Trust want a meaningful say in how the club is run yet their aims don’t necessarily match.

There is pretty much no realistic owner we could have that would willingly want to work closely with the fans organisation. They may throw a few crumbs or posture a bit to keep up appearances but that’s it.

So we have to think how much better than now a change of owner could realistically be and then compare than with how much worse it could realistically be. I don’t personally see how it would be that much better but think it could be one hell of a lot worse.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 12:25 - Feb 12 with 970 viewsPozuelosSideys

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 10:35 - Feb 12 by jasper_T

The most likely outcome of successful legal action is that the trust can sell their shares at a good price. It's not going to give them any more control or say in the football club.


IMO, if legal action forced the Americans to purchase the Trust shares at PL rates, then ill bet half my pocket money the very next day you will see them take the Sellers to court to recoup their losses. If i were the sellouts, id be squirming very uncomfortably right now. The pressure must be on, especially given some of the underhand dealings which were rumoured a year or so ago by other posters. Everything we hear from the Sellers now is just PR and smokescreen. Dont buy it.

IMO the American intentions were to pick the club up, wring out as much cost as possible, add a few more revenue streams (ie the stadium, naming rights etc) and flip the club on to the next buyer in a more stable financial position and claim a small profitable margin for their stakeholders. Look at Oaktree Capital for instance, Kaplan's business - this is exactly what they do - pick up business in financial distress and turn them around.Unfortunately they knew nothing about football and left HJ as Operating Officer and Football guru who eventually panned it all chasing his loses with crappy, overpriced signings like a Vegas addict. I can partly forgive this as better men than him have done this and he wont be the last. Im sure this gives him nightmares, despite his millions.

I think the Yanks have three options now:

i.) Continue to strip out costs/add revenue streams and eventually get the club back to how we were pre-2012, ie self sufficient, sustainable and not in need of any outside finance except for the odd bridging loan. This would be my preference. Its just unfortunate that relegation has meant the process needs to be far more aggressive and less fan friendly. I think an element of this would have been undertaken had we been in the PL anyway, but not to the extent it has to be done in the Championship.So effectively sit around for the medium term and hope for a return to the PL where they can flip and get some profit back in.

ii.) Sell the club at a significant loss - not happening

iii.) Pursue legal route. Cant see that happening unless Trust can force a share buyout

Not a chance they will go for options 2 or 3. 1 sits ok with me, not sure it will with many others though.


Apologies for the the essay.
[Post edited 12 Feb 12:27]

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

1
Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 12:37 - Feb 12 with 941 viewsWinner_

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 12:25 - Feb 12 by PozuelosSideys

IMO, if legal action forced the Americans to purchase the Trust shares at PL rates, then ill bet half my pocket money the very next day you will see them take the Sellers to court to recoup their losses. If i were the sellouts, id be squirming very uncomfortably right now. The pressure must be on, especially given some of the underhand dealings which were rumoured a year or so ago by other posters. Everything we hear from the Sellers now is just PR and smokescreen. Dont buy it.

IMO the American intentions were to pick the club up, wring out as much cost as possible, add a few more revenue streams (ie the stadium, naming rights etc) and flip the club on to the next buyer in a more stable financial position and claim a small profitable margin for their stakeholders. Look at Oaktree Capital for instance, Kaplan's business - this is exactly what they do - pick up business in financial distress and turn them around.Unfortunately they knew nothing about football and left HJ as Operating Officer and Football guru who eventually panned it all chasing his loses with crappy, overpriced signings like a Vegas addict. I can partly forgive this as better men than him have done this and he wont be the last. Im sure this gives him nightmares, despite his millions.

I think the Yanks have three options now:

i.) Continue to strip out costs/add revenue streams and eventually get the club back to how we were pre-2012, ie self sufficient, sustainable and not in need of any outside finance except for the odd bridging loan. This would be my preference. Its just unfortunate that relegation has meant the process needs to be far more aggressive and less fan friendly. I think an element of this would have been undertaken had we been in the PL anyway, but not to the extent it has to be done in the Championship.So effectively sit around for the medium term and hope for a return to the PL where they can flip and get some profit back in.

ii.) Sell the club at a significant loss - not happening

iii.) Pursue legal route. Cant see that happening unless Trust can force a share buyout

Not a chance they will go for options 2 or 3. 1 sits ok with me, not sure it will with many others though.


Apologies for the the essay.
[Post edited 12 Feb 12:27]


I think that is a fantastic post.

Refreshing to read.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 14:14 - Feb 12 with 780 viewsLoyal

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 12:37 - Feb 12 by Winner_

I think that is a fantastic post.

Refreshing to read.


E20 trying not to be controversial.

Nolan sympathiser, clout expert, personal friend of Leigh Dineen, advocate and enforcer of porridge swallows. The official inventor of the tit w@nk.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 14:41 - Feb 12 with 749 viewsWinner_

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 14:14 - Feb 12 by Loyal

E20 trying not to be controversial.


There is nothing controversial about anything I post. Got any examples?
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 15:11 - Feb 12 with 715 viewsLeonWasGod

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 12:25 - Feb 12 by PozuelosSideys

IMO, if legal action forced the Americans to purchase the Trust shares at PL rates, then ill bet half my pocket money the very next day you will see them take the Sellers to court to recoup their losses. If i were the sellouts, id be squirming very uncomfortably right now. The pressure must be on, especially given some of the underhand dealings which were rumoured a year or so ago by other posters. Everything we hear from the Sellers now is just PR and smokescreen. Dont buy it.

IMO the American intentions were to pick the club up, wring out as much cost as possible, add a few more revenue streams (ie the stadium, naming rights etc) and flip the club on to the next buyer in a more stable financial position and claim a small profitable margin for their stakeholders. Look at Oaktree Capital for instance, Kaplan's business - this is exactly what they do - pick up business in financial distress and turn them around.Unfortunately they knew nothing about football and left HJ as Operating Officer and Football guru who eventually panned it all chasing his loses with crappy, overpriced signings like a Vegas addict. I can partly forgive this as better men than him have done this and he wont be the last. Im sure this gives him nightmares, despite his millions.

I think the Yanks have three options now:

i.) Continue to strip out costs/add revenue streams and eventually get the club back to how we were pre-2012, ie self sufficient, sustainable and not in need of any outside finance except for the odd bridging loan. This would be my preference. Its just unfortunate that relegation has meant the process needs to be far more aggressive and less fan friendly. I think an element of this would have been undertaken had we been in the PL anyway, but not to the extent it has to be done in the Championship.So effectively sit around for the medium term and hope for a return to the PL where they can flip and get some profit back in.

ii.) Sell the club at a significant loss - not happening

iii.) Pursue legal route. Cant see that happening unless Trust can force a share buyout

Not a chance they will go for options 2 or 3. 1 sits ok with me, not sure it will with many others though.


Apologies for the the essay.
[Post edited 12 Feb 12:27]


I don't think the outcome of (i) is a positive one. Clubs tend not to progress out of this league anymore without substantial owner investment above and beyond normal income. Which we won't see. We'll on paper be competitive next year but then it becomes very difficult. I think they'll be hoping for a return to the PL in vain through this model. (There's always a chance of course, but it's unlikely).

I think their best option was to have a bit of a go this season whilst we still had very good players for this league. Maybe recruited that DM that Potter so badly wanted, or held on to Carroll/Jeff so we had strength in depth. That's too late now of course and I fear it will cost us a PO place. And then each season after this one is going to get more difficult.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 15:29 - Feb 12 with 688 viewsjasper_T

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 15:11 - Feb 12 by LeonWasGod

I don't think the outcome of (i) is a positive one. Clubs tend not to progress out of this league anymore without substantial owner investment above and beyond normal income. Which we won't see. We'll on paper be competitive next year but then it becomes very difficult. I think they'll be hoping for a return to the PL in vain through this model. (There's always a chance of course, but it's unlikely).

I think their best option was to have a bit of a go this season whilst we still had very good players for this league. Maybe recruited that DM that Potter so badly wanted, or held on to Carroll/Jeff so we had strength in depth. That's too late now of course and I fear it will cost us a PO place. And then each season after this one is going to get more difficult.


Calling Carroll "strength in depth" is rewriting the first half of the season a bit.

Norwich and Sheffield United are clear counter examples to your idea of needing big owner investment and an immediate push. Not sure about Leeds spending but they're no Stoke or Villa, either. Some clubs need a big reset and if it means dropping down and rebuilding from scratch - even losing their best young talent along the way - so be it.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 15:53 - Feb 12 with 656 viewsThornburyswan

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 15:11 - Feb 12 by LeonWasGod

I don't think the outcome of (i) is a positive one. Clubs tend not to progress out of this league anymore without substantial owner investment above and beyond normal income. Which we won't see. We'll on paper be competitive next year but then it becomes very difficult. I think they'll be hoping for a return to the PL in vain through this model. (There's always a chance of course, but it's unlikely).

I think their best option was to have a bit of a go this season whilst we still had very good players for this league. Maybe recruited that DM that Potter so badly wanted, or held on to Carroll/Jeff so we had strength in depth. That's too late now of course and I fear it will cost us a PO place. And then each season after this one is going to get more difficult.


True although every so often a club makes it, we did it 8 years ago & more recently Huddersfield have done it without significant investment but your point is valid in that at best you become a yo-yo club.

Having been a fan for 45/46 years I can accept that & I'm comfortable with minimal debt & investment within our means whilst bringing youngsters through the academy & accepting that the really good ones will go as soon as £££££s are offered.

Not sure that's the majority dream/vision though.
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Some sense regarding boycotts and marches (n/t) on 16:20 - Feb 12 with 617 viewscontroversial_jack

Some sense regarding boycotts and marches on 14:14 - Feb 12 by Loyal

E20 trying not to be controversial.


[Post edited 12 Feb 16:24]
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