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Churchill... 08:41 - Feb 14 with 9433 viewswaynekerr55

John McDonnell hey!

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Churchill... on 02:36 - Feb 15 with 2105 viewsGroo

Churchill... on 20:15 - Feb 14 by Kilkennyjack

‘If the Welsh are striking over hunger, then we must fill their bellies with lead’

Winston Churchill. 1910.

Enough.

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Tonypandy, Wales, November 1910
The coalminers’ strike in the Rhondda Valley grew out of disputes over wage differentials for working hard and soft coal seams and the need for more safety inspections–death rates in the mines had reached the highest level since statistics had been compiled. Up to 30,000 miners struck, and some rioted; local authorities appealed for troops. On November 6, William Abraham, a Member of Parliament and president of the South Wales Miners federation, arrived at the Home Office to plead with Churchill that troops not be sent.

The next day Churchill met with Secretary of State for War Richard Haldane. They decided to dispatch police constables, but to withhold troops. Churchill said the use of soldiers was inappropriate in a civil disorder. He also promised the strikers an immediate Board of Trade inquiry, and sent them a message:

“Their best friends here are greatly distressed at the trouble which has broken out and will do their best to help them get fair treatment….But rioting must cease at once so that the enquiry shall not be prejudicial and to prevent the credit of the Rhondda Valley being impaired. Confiding in the good sense of the Cambrian workmen we are holding back the soldiers for the present and sending police instead.”3

The Conservative press attacked. The Times said that Churchill “hardly seems to understand that an acute crisis has arisen which needs decisive handling. The rosewater of conciliation is all very well in its place, but its place is not in face of a wild mob drunk with the desire of destruction. Men’s lives are in danger, not to mention the poor horses….”4

The Liberal press praised Churchill’s restraint. “The brave course was also the wise one,” wrote the Manchester Guardian. “One can imagine what would have happened if the soldiers instead of the policemen had come on the rioters while they were pillaging. Bayonets would have been used instead of truncheons; the clumsier methods of the soldiers would have exasperated the crowds, and instead of a score of cases for the hospital there might have been as many for the mortuary.”5

Churchill’s decision not to send troops proved short-lived. Rioting did not end, and spread to the town of Tonypandy, where one man was fatally injured and sixty-three shops were looted and damaged. The officer commanding the Southern Command dispatched 400 standby soldiers. Yet on 8 November Churchill issued verbal instructions that “in no case should soldiers come in direct contact with rioters unless and until action had been taken by the police.” If police were overpowered, troops could be deployed, but even then a number of police should remain, “to emphasise the fact that the armed forces act merely as the support of the civil power.”6

“By preventing bloodshed,” Paul Addison wrote, “Churchill also prevented a debacle for Liberalism.” Writing to Lloyd George the following spring, Churchill attempted to follow-up his November promise to address grievances. The government, he said, should institute stronger safety regulations and inspections, financing the expense with a surcharge on mineowners’ royalties. His hopes were thwarted, Addison continued: “The soldiers did not kill anybody, but they remained in the Rhondda until October 1911 and as David Smith observes, their presence ‘ensured that the miners’ demands would be utterly rejected.’”7


https://winstonchurchill.hillsdale.edu/tonypandy-and-llanelli/

Groo does what Groo does best

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Churchill... on 03:06 - Feb 15 with 2097 viewsGroo

Churchill... on 22:29 - Feb 14 by Ebo

Such a great politician he was voted out as soon as the war ended. A drunken racist buffoon and nearly as bad as Stalin with his taste for genocide. Surely you can't bat this one away Loh where Churchill ignored pleas for emergency food aid for millions in Bengal left to starve as their rice paddies were turned over to jute for sandbag production and supplies of rice from Burma stopped after Japanese occupation.

Between one and three million died of hunger in 1943.


Of course he did, shame there wasn't a war on isn't it.

The Cabinet cited other causes of the famine rarely mentioned in latter-day denunciations of Churchill: the shortages were “partly political in character, caused by Marwari supporters of Congress [Gandhi’s party] in an effort to embarrass the existing Muslim Government of Bengal.” Another cause, they added, was corrupt local officials: “The Government of India were unduly tender with speculators and hoarders.”12

Amery and Wavell continued to press for wheat, and in the Cabinet of February 14th Churchill tried to accommodate them. While shipping difficulties were “very real,” Churchill said, he was “most anxious that we should do everything possible to ease the Viceroy’s position. No doubt the Viceroy felt that if this corner could be turned, the position next year would be better.” Churchill added that “refusal of India’s request was not due to our underrating India’s needs, but because we could not take operational risks by cutting down the shipping required for vital operations.”13

The war pressed Britain on all sides; shipping was needed everywhere. Indeed, at the same time as India was demanding another million tons, Churchill was fending off other demands: “I have been much concerned at the apparently excessive quantities of grain demanded by Allied HQ for civilians in Italy, which impose a great strain on our shipping and finances,” he wrote War Secretary Sir James Grigg. “Will you let me have, at the earliest possible moment…estimates of the amount of food which is really needed….”14

Groo does what Groo does best

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Churchill... on 11:27 - Feb 15 with 2016 viewsEbo

Churchill... on 21:09 - Feb 14 by exiledclaseboy

You can add mart to that list as well. The ability to trigger rightie snowflakes just by clicking an arrow on the internet is a rare talent indeed.


He's at war with 6TRAM and Eurasia.

Thank you, goodnight and bollocks
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Churchill... on 13:29 - Feb 15 with 1985 viewssherpajacob

For all churchills numerous faults, his champions refer to his status as a great war leader. Indeed It must be recognised that Churchill deserves praise for identifying that Britain had no hope of winning the war on its own and needed the full support of all its allies, and he left no stone unturned in bringing the USA into the war.

However, as a military strategist it's difficult to think of anything he proposed that didn't turn into a,complete disaster. Narvik and Gallipoli are well documented, but less well known is his requisition of 2 Turkish battleships before the outbreak of WW1 and thereby ensuring neutral Turkey entered the war on the German side.

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Churchill... on 13:45 - Feb 15 with 1978 viewscontroversial_jack

He was a meddler. He often intervened with strategy and tactics and tried to tell professional generals with a lifetime of experience how to do their job. He had no concept of logistics or supply , often ordering British units to take the offensive when they weren't prepared to do so. He was too quick to sack Generals who wouldn't do his bidding.

He did make some great motivational speeches and was the ideal frontman, but the war outcome wasn't influenced by him at all, although he did draw the USA into it and kept Russia alive by supplying them through the convoys. He was also one of the main supporters of disarming the country after w12, and ironically enough, Chamberlain wasn't and could see the danger ahead.
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Churchill... on 20:55 - Feb 15 with 1897 viewsPentyrchJack

A bit rich coming from McDonnell the IRA sympathiser and apologist.

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Churchill... on 20:58 - Feb 15 with 1894 viewsPozuelosSideys

I do enjoy reading the left furiously try and change history and blacken the name (no pun intended) of those involved to suit their own agendas for the modern world.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

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Churchill... on 13:00 - Feb 16 with 1815 viewsKilkennyjack

Churchill... on 20:58 - Feb 15 by PozuelosSideys

I do enjoy reading the left furiously try and change history and blacken the name (no pun intended) of those involved to suit their own agendas for the modern world.


Do you also enjoy Mogg defending the use of Concentration Camps live on the BBC ?

This is a monster with a second class degree in History.

Of course, he should resign immediately.
Over 20,000 women and children lost their lives.
In Moggs world, they were being held for the own protection.
Of course all unchallenged on the BBCQT.

Mogg OUT.

Beware of the Risen People

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Churchill... on 13:22 - Feb 16 with 1799 viewsGroo

Churchill... on 13:00 - Feb 16 by Kilkennyjack

Do you also enjoy Mogg defending the use of Concentration Camps live on the BBC ?

This is a monster with a second class degree in History.

Of course, he should resign immediately.
Over 20,000 women and children lost their lives.
In Moggs world, they were being held for the own protection.
Of course all unchallenged on the BBCQT.

Mogg OUT.


Reading about it, they were started at refugee camps for displaced people, its only when Kitchener took over command and he started a scorched earth policy, destroying farms, poisoning wells, etc, to cut off the Boers supplies that they became overloaded.

They would destroy a farm and force the families there to the camps.

Caused massive suffering.

Churchill was a young officer then, can't see how this was attributed to him.

Groo does what Groo does best

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Churchill... on 14:44 - Feb 16 with 1768 viewsLohengrin

Churchill... on 13:22 - Feb 16 by Groo

Reading about it, they were started at refugee camps for displaced people, its only when Kitchener took over command and he started a scorched earth policy, destroying farms, poisoning wells, etc, to cut off the Boers supplies that they became overloaded.

They would destroy a farm and force the families there to the camps.

Caused massive suffering.

Churchill was a young officer then, can't see how this was attributed to him.


He wasn’t even a serving soldier at that juncture, Groo. He was in South Africa as an accredited reporter with The Morning Post.

Look, Churchill was just a man, despite attempts by different sections of the media to either beatify or demonise his memory. He wasn’t a God or anything like, he was the same mix of the good and the bad, wisdom and intemperance as the rest of us, albeit a man who led an immeasurably more exciting life than any of us could aspire to.

* Killy, on the subject of concentration camps the Republic of Ireland was operating one less than a decade before I was born jamming 1500 shinners into bell tents at The Curragh. Let’s not conflate the purpose of administrative measures like that with what went on in altogether different sorts of camps in Eastern Europe within living memory. It’s reaching for a completely false equivalence.

An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Churchill... on 15:53 - Feb 16 with 1739 viewsDJack

Churchill... on 20:58 - Feb 15 by PozuelosSideys

I do enjoy reading the left furiously try and change history and blacken the name (no pun intended) of those involved to suit their own agendas for the modern world.


Do you enjoy it as much when the right do it?

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Churchill... on 16:18 - Feb 16 with 1726 viewsKilkennyjack

Churchill... on 14:44 - Feb 16 by Lohengrin

He wasn’t even a serving soldier at that juncture, Groo. He was in South Africa as an accredited reporter with The Morning Post.

Look, Churchill was just a man, despite attempts by different sections of the media to either beatify or demonise his memory. He wasn’t a God or anything like, he was the same mix of the good and the bad, wisdom and intemperance as the rest of us, albeit a man who led an immeasurably more exciting life than any of us could aspire to.

* Killy, on the subject of concentration camps the Republic of Ireland was operating one less than a decade before I was born jamming 1500 shinners into bell tents at The Curragh. Let’s not conflate the purpose of administrative measures like that with what went on in altogether different sorts of camps in Eastern Europe within living memory. It’s reaching for a completely false equivalence.


Hi Loh,

Unlike Mogg, most people basically take the view that all Concentration camps are wrong.
Lets start there and end there shall we ?

All are bad things, all are evil and wrong.
No ifs and no buts ....

Mogg must resign.

Beware of the Risen People

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Churchill... on 16:24 - Feb 16 with 1719 viewsPozuelosSideys

Churchill... on 15:53 - Feb 16 by DJack

Do you enjoy it as much when the right do it?


I think its hilarious. But im referring to whats being done in this thread..

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

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Churchill... on 16:34 - Feb 16 with 1712 viewsDJack

Churchill... on 16:24 - Feb 16 by PozuelosSideys

I think its hilarious. But im referring to whats being done in this thread..


Granted. The issue for me is that your post just adds to the further entrenchment of "both sides" when we both know that most of hamanity can be asshats and politicians doubly so whilst the use of the phrases "left"/"right" become perjoratives for some. Lets face ir, it's far left and far right thats the problem and in the middle is good and bad but at least it's an attempt at some inclusivity/common ground.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Churchill... on 16:41 - Feb 16 with 1705 viewsPozuelosSideys

Churchill... on 16:34 - Feb 16 by DJack

Granted. The issue for me is that your post just adds to the further entrenchment of "both sides" when we both know that most of hamanity can be asshats and politicians doubly so whilst the use of the phrases "left"/"right" become perjoratives for some. Lets face ir, it's far left and far right thats the problem and in the middle is good and bad but at least it's an attempt at some inclusivity/common ground.


Course it does. I absolutely agree with you. But the left have a tendency to deliver their thoughts and ideas with a "I know better than you. Im more educated than you, youre thick, racist etc etc". Then follow that up by applying modern day standards to issues and situations which happened decades or more ago. All in an attempt to discredit people from the past to add to their argument.

Of course the flip side is people like Rees-Mogg. The guy will often come up with some very sensible, pertinent point which have been very well thought out. He will then blow it entirely by following it up with some rediculous statement like he did with the concentration camps stuff. This adds fuel to the lefts argument, which then entrenches the right. Before you know it we are in a situation like we are now where each side will never agree and is really very polarised.

PlanetSwans is an absolute microcosm of this. For instance, i virtually disagree with everything that Sherpa fella, kilkenny and the like post, and they absolutely disagree with most things i post. Fortunately i suspect most of us dont give two flying pigs as its just the internet.

In real life though, this stuff matters. We will all lose in the end i think

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

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Churchill... on 16:50 - Feb 16 with 1698 viewsDJack

Churchill... on 16:41 - Feb 16 by PozuelosSideys

Course it does. I absolutely agree with you. But the left have a tendency to deliver their thoughts and ideas with a "I know better than you. Im more educated than you, youre thick, racist etc etc". Then follow that up by applying modern day standards to issues and situations which happened decades or more ago. All in an attempt to discredit people from the past to add to their argument.

Of course the flip side is people like Rees-Mogg. The guy will often come up with some very sensible, pertinent point which have been very well thought out. He will then blow it entirely by following it up with some rediculous statement like he did with the concentration camps stuff. This adds fuel to the lefts argument, which then entrenches the right. Before you know it we are in a situation like we are now where each side will never agree and is really very polarised.

PlanetSwans is an absolute microcosm of this. For instance, i virtually disagree with everything that Sherpa fella, kilkenny and the like post, and they absolutely disagree with most things i post. Fortunately i suspect most of us dont give two flying pigs as its just the internet.

In real life though, this stuff matters. We will all lose in the end i think


Equally you've got Trump using(abusing) Obama history and Orban demonising Soros and liberal thinking.

I'd happily see the far left/right burnt at the stake for their "hereticism" of humanity but to claim one is worse than the other is nonsensical in my opinion.

Yes we all lose out in the end.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Churchill... on 16:53 - Feb 16 with 1694 viewsPozuelosSideys

Churchill... on 16:50 - Feb 16 by DJack

Equally you've got Trump using(abusing) Obama history and Orban demonising Soros and liberal thinking.

I'd happily see the far left/right burnt at the stake for their "hereticism" of humanity but to claim one is worse than the other is nonsensical in my opinion.

Yes we all lose out in the end.


Trump is a clown though. If any of us were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt before hand, he continues to prove the left correct in their assertions. I have zero argument with your point. Hes a polarising character and a dangerous one.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
Poll: Hattricks

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Churchill... on 16:59 - Feb 16 with 1686 viewsDJack

Churchill... on 16:53 - Feb 16 by PozuelosSideys

Trump is a clown though. If any of us were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt before hand, he continues to prove the left correct in their assertions. I have zero argument with your point. Hes a polarising character and a dangerous one.


Worse is to come I suspect . Money is being pumped in to populists of either end of the spectrum in the "first world".

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Churchill... on 17:18 - Feb 16 with 1677 viewsLohengrin

Churchill... on 16:50 - Feb 16 by DJack

Equally you've got Trump using(abusing) Obama history and Orban demonising Soros and liberal thinking.

I'd happily see the far left/right burnt at the stake for their "hereticism" of humanity but to claim one is worse than the other is nonsensical in my opinion.

Yes we all lose out in the end.


As a former protege almost a favoured son of Soros I’d say Orban is pretty well placed to sound the alarm as to the true nature of the financier’s machinations. He certainly has a far better handle on what goes on behind those particular closed doors than any of us on here.

I’m in a rush for work now so I’ll have to pick this back up tomorrow but I’d be interested to read why you regard “Liberal thinking” as an unalloyed good? I’m unsure as to what exactly it is you mean when you use the term but if you could possibly avoid a ‘whiskers on kittens and warm wooden mittens’ response I’d be eternally grateful.

Ta in advance.

An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Churchill... on 17:32 - Feb 16 with 1668 viewsDJack

Churchill... on 17:18 - Feb 16 by Lohengrin

As a former protege almost a favoured son of Soros I’d say Orban is pretty well placed to sound the alarm as to the true nature of the financier’s machinations. He certainly has a far better handle on what goes on behind those particular closed doors than any of us on here.

I’m in a rush for work now so I’ll have to pick this back up tomorrow but I’d be interested to read why you regard “Liberal thinking” as an unalloyed good? I’m unsure as to what exactly it is you mean when you use the term but if you could possibly avoid a ‘whiskers on kittens and warm wooden mittens’ response I’d be eternally grateful.

Ta in advance.


"I’d be interested to read why you regard “Liberal thinking” as an unalloyed good?"

I've never stated that.

It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan

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Churchill... on 13:25 - Feb 18 with 1548 viewsfelixstowe_jack

Churchill was well respected by Attlee, Labour's greatest Prime Minister, who put the interests of the country first in the coalition government during the war as was made deputy Prime Minister by Churchill in 1942. Attlee was also very anti communist and was a leading supporter and helped to found NATO. I guess that would make Attlee a villain in communist loving Macdonnell and Corbyn eyes.

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Churchill... on 13:05 - Feb 19 with 1416 viewscontroversial_jack

Churchill... on 13:25 - Feb 18 by felixstowe_jack

Churchill was well respected by Attlee, Labour's greatest Prime Minister, who put the interests of the country first in the coalition government during the war as was made deputy Prime Minister by Churchill in 1942. Attlee was also very anti communist and was a leading supporter and helped to found NATO. I guess that would make Attlee a villain in communist loving Macdonnell and Corbyn eyes.


I hate to break this to you, But Corbyn and macdonnell aren't communists.The idea behind NATO was sound and fair until it was hijacked by US foreign policy.
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Churchill... on 13:19 - Feb 19 with 1408 viewsLohengrin

Churchill... on 13:05 - Feb 19 by controversial_jack

I hate to break this to you, But Corbyn and macdonnell aren't communists.The idea behind NATO was sound and fair until it was hijacked by US foreign policy.


Fellow travellers would be a better description as I doubt Corbyn has enough going on upstairs to fully grasp Leninist idiom. Still, talk of “defending the gains of the revolution” in relation to October 1917 is hardly the proclivity of a social democrat.

Silly man.


An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.

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Churchill... on 13:25 - Feb 19 with 1402 viewswaynekerr55

Churchill... on 13:19 - Feb 19 by Lohengrin

Fellow travellers would be a better description as I doubt Corbyn has enough going on upstairs to fully grasp Leninist idiom. Still, talk of “defending the gains of the revolution” in relation to October 1917 is hardly the proclivity of a social democrat.

Silly man.



Another MSM smear, mun

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Churchill... on 13:51 - Feb 19 with 1393 viewsWarwickHunt

Churchill... on 13:05 - Feb 19 by controversial_jack

I hate to break this to you, But Corbyn and macdonnell aren't communists.The idea behind NATO was sound and fair until it was hijacked by US foreign policy.


Attlee (and Gaitskell, Wilson et al) would no doubt be seen as "class traitors" by McDonnell and Corbyn.

Perhaps being a Marxist isn't semantically a communist but it's close enough for most people...
[Post edited 19 Feb 2019 15:43]
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