| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 14:20 - Mar 15 with 2125 views | Jonathans_coat |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 11:45 - Mar 15 by LeonWasGod |
I'll just leave this here. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/white-british-people-extremist-v
The main reason for posting that is for the statement of Assistant commissioner Neil Basu, the head of UK counterterror policing, agreeing with your comment about the spiral : “There is no doubt whatsoever in my mind that the two ideologies, both perverse, are feeding each other,”
But I'm sure the main findings will surprise a few people too. I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss the impact of the constant drip feed of anti-Islamic sentiment from the mainstream alt-right. The NZ killer says he was most influenced by US mainstream tory commentator/PR spinner Candace Owens after all. |
Two opposing extreme and violent ideologies, feeding on the fear and hatred of the other the grow.
Anyone who has studied European history 1918 - 1939 can see a very worrying similarities between that time period and our own.
Let’s hope, pray (if inclined), but more importantly ACT, to make sure the outcome is not the same. |  | |  |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 15:35 - Mar 15 with 2031 views | AnotherJohn |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 14:20 - Mar 15 by Jonathans_coat |
Two opposing extreme and violent ideologies, feeding on the fear and hatred of the other the grow.
Anyone who has studied European history 1918 - 1939 can see a very worrying similarities between that time period and our own.
Let’s hope, pray (if inclined), but more importantly ACT, to make sure the outcome is not the same. |
I think we all agree that violence directed at minority religious groups is entirely unacceptable, but I wonder whether (albeit unintentionally) this post is unfair to Jewish people in inter-war Germany, who as far as I can see had no real extremist wing. Even Goebbels did not claim there was much Jewish terrorism; rather the allegations were that Jewish elites had helped undermine Germany’s position in WWI and that there was a wider Jewish world conspiracy as suggested by the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Actually during the time of the Weimar Republic, although antisemitism existed, a Jewish middle-class seemed to be well integrated in many areas of German society. There was no equivalent of Manchester or London Bridge, and yet the German Jews still ended up in the camps as extreme right wing ideology gained traction after the depression. My take is that the present European situation is in some ways more challenging because there have been a lot of deaths. My other thought is that none of the European countries (except perhaps Greece) presently have the economic problems that afflicted 1930s Germany — though that could change. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:49]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 15:47 - Mar 15 with 2020 views | Lohengrin |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 15:35 - Mar 15 by AnotherJohn |
I think we all agree that violence directed at minority religious groups is entirely unacceptable, but I wonder whether (albeit unintentionally) this post is unfair to Jewish people in inter-war Germany, who as far as I can see had no real extremist wing. Even Goebbels did not claim there was much Jewish terrorism; rather the allegations were that Jewish elites had helped undermine Germany’s position in WWI and that there was a wider Jewish world conspiracy as suggested by the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Actually during the time of the Weimar Republic, although antisemitism existed, a Jewish middle-class seemed to be well integrated in many areas of German society. There was no equivalent of Manchester or London Bridge, and yet the German Jews still ended up in the camps as extreme right wing ideology gained traction after the depression. My take is that the present European situation is in some ways more challenging because there have been a lot of deaths. My other thought is that none of the European countries (except perhaps Greece) presently have the economic problems that afflicted 1930s Germany — though that could change. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:49]
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In fairness I don’t think Jonathan was talking about religion, I think he was referring to communism and Nationalism in its myriad forms rising to meet it in the interbellum period. |  |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 15:59 - Mar 15 with 1995 views | oh_tommy_tommy |
There’s some f&cking lunatics about . |  |
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:12 - Mar 15 with 1978 views | AnotherJohn |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 15:47 - Mar 15 by Lohengrin |
In fairness I don’t think Jonathan was talking about religion, I think he was referring to communism and Nationalism in its myriad forms rising to meet it in the interbellum period. |
But if that is the case, and the issue is similarities with the present, where are the communists now? Even I wouldn't accuse the EU of that. It seems to me less about Hannah Arendt than Samuel Huntington. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:18]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:23 - Mar 15 with 1957 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 12:53 - Mar 15 by londonlisa2001 |
I simply cannot understand the mentality of anyone sharing video footage of mass murder.
Nor of anyone watching it.
An appalling act of terrorism by murderous, obscene scum. |
I can not understand in anyway why anyone would want to view/share this. It is beyond my comprehension.
I'm getting fed up with tech companies hiding from their responsibilities.
Some of the billions made could be invested in algorithms to pick this stuff up immediately. The guy charged has apparently been posting extreme stuff on line for a while.
Hate material online is classified as a 'hate crime', presumable sharing it or facilitating sharing it is also a crime. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:25]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:31 - Mar 15 with 1938 views | Lohengrin |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:12 - Mar 15 by AnotherJohn |
But if that is the case, and the issue is similarities with the present, where are the communists now? Even I wouldn't accuse the EU of that. It seems to me less about Hannah Arendt than Samuel Huntington. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:18]
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It’s my take, and he will be along later to correct me if I’m wrong, that he was drawing a parallel between the clash of ideologies then and that of religion now. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:58 - Mar 15 with 1910 views | AnotherJohn |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:31 - Mar 15 by Lohengrin |
It’s my take, and he will be along later to correct me if I’m wrong, that he was drawing a parallel between the clash of ideologies then and that of religion now. |
We'll see. Some claim a parallel between 1930s antisemitism leading to the Holocaust and contemporary 'Islamophobia' leading to something nearly as bad, and that was what I read into the post.
In any event I don't want to deflect attention from the tragedy of the death of blameless people in Christchurch and so will desist from my musings about the implications for us. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 17:05]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:03 - Mar 15 with 1900 views | londonlisa2001 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 15:35 - Mar 15 by AnotherJohn |
I think we all agree that violence directed at minority religious groups is entirely unacceptable, but I wonder whether (albeit unintentionally) this post is unfair to Jewish people in inter-war Germany, who as far as I can see had no real extremist wing. Even Goebbels did not claim there was much Jewish terrorism; rather the allegations were that Jewish elites had helped undermine Germany’s position in WWI and that there was a wider Jewish world conspiracy as suggested by the fake Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Actually during the time of the Weimar Republic, although antisemitism existed, a Jewish middle-class seemed to be well integrated in many areas of German society. There was no equivalent of Manchester or London Bridge, and yet the German Jews still ended up in the camps as extreme right wing ideology gained traction after the depression. My take is that the present European situation is in some ways more challenging because there have been a lot of deaths. My other thought is that none of the European countries (except perhaps Greece) presently have the economic problems that afflicted 1930s Germany — though that could change. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:49]
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“I think we all agree that violence directed at minority religious groups is entirely unacceptable, but ...”
The only appropriate place to end your sentence was before the ‘but’. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:07 - Mar 15 with 1893 views | AnotherJohn |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:03 - Mar 15 by londonlisa2001 |
“I think we all agree that violence directed at minority religious groups is entirely unacceptable, but ...”
The only appropriate place to end your sentence was before the ‘but’. |
So it wasn't appropriate to ask for fairness for Jewish people? The but did not qualify the original statement. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:09 - Mar 15 with 1890 views | londonlisa2001 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:23 - Mar 15 by JACKMANANDBOY |
I can not understand in anyway why anyone would want to view/share this. It is beyond my comprehension.
I'm getting fed up with tech companies hiding from their responsibilities.
Some of the billions made could be invested in algorithms to pick this stuff up immediately. The guy charged has apparently been posting extreme stuff on line for a while.
Hate material online is classified as a 'hate crime', presumable sharing it or facilitating sharing it is also a crime. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:25]
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I agree re tech companies.
In fact, I was saying just earlier today that if Facebook continue to refuse to take some sort of control, they should just be shut down. The loss of $50bn plus may focus Zuckerberg’s mind on the issue.
Social media is fuelling a lot of this stuff. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:23 - Mar 15 with 1851 views | JACKMANANDBOY |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:09 - Mar 15 by londonlisa2001 |
I agree re tech companies.
In fact, I was saying just earlier today that if Facebook continue to refuse to take some sort of control, they should just be shut down. The loss of $50bn plus may focus Zuckerberg’s mind on the issue.
Social media is fuelling a lot of this stuff. |
Yes, it's the lack of sychronicity between the stated ambition to do ' social good ' and a failure to take action to deal with the criminal users of their services. Yet they make massive investment in the manipulation, sharing and use of data for financial gain. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 17:32]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:25 - Mar 15 with 1849 views | Lohengrin |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:09 - Mar 15 by londonlisa2001 |
I agree re tech companies.
In fact, I was saying just earlier today that if Facebook continue to refuse to take some sort of control, they should just be shut down. The loss of $50bn plus may focus Zuckerberg’s mind on the issue.
Social media is fuelling a lot of this stuff. |
”Social media is fuelling a lot of this stuff.
Collective insanity would appear to be a far more potent accelerant, Lisa. There could be some comfort to be found in thinking that Christchurch was an isolated horror, but it isn’t. A couple of weeks ago in Nigeria, within the Commonwealth, thirty two were gunned down at Church. An atrocity seemingly unremarked upon by just about anybody save for Justin Welby and HM. Three weeks prior to that Jolo Cathedral in the Philippines was attacked with twenty seven killed, including the Priest with a further one hundred and eleven wounded.
A rolling catalogue of obscenity. | |
| An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it. |
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:41 - Mar 15 with 1819 views | londonlisa2001 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:07 - Mar 15 by AnotherJohn |
So it wasn't appropriate to ask for fairness for Jewish people? The but did not qualify the original statement. |
It did qualify it.
The only possible use of the word ‘but’ in a sentence is to qualify what has come before to at least some extent. Your point was that Jewish people didn’t do anything to bring it on themselves, so the inference is clear.
Islam doesn’t have an extremist wing. There are extremists who are, nominally, followers of Islam. That’s a very real difference.
It’s like saying this murderous animal is part of the extremist wing of Christianity. It’s nonsense.
Terrorists are terrorists whatever their ethnicity or faith. By definition people who do this, or the Manchester bombings, or any other atrocity are without anything any sensible person would recognise as faith. And don’t bother with the whole ‘but the Koran...’ because ‘but the Bible...’ as well. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:49 - Mar 15 with 1803 views | Darran |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:25 - Mar 15 by Lohengrin |
”Social media is fuelling a lot of this stuff.
Collective insanity would appear to be a far more potent accelerant, Lisa. There could be some comfort to be found in thinking that Christchurch was an isolated horror, but it isn’t. A couple of weeks ago in Nigeria, within the Commonwealth, thirty two were gunned down at Church. An atrocity seemingly unremarked upon by just about anybody save for Justin Welby and HM. Three weeks prior to that Jolo Cathedral in the Philippines was attacked with twenty seven killed, including the Priest with a further one hundred and eleven wounded.
A rolling catalogue of obscenity. |
Social media is definitely fuelling it but it’s not just the rancid right it’s also the loony left but people don’t want to hear that. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 18:19]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 18:01 - Mar 15 with 1781 views | londonlisa2001 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:25 - Mar 15 by Lohengrin |
”Social media is fuelling a lot of this stuff.
Collective insanity would appear to be a far more potent accelerant, Lisa. There could be some comfort to be found in thinking that Christchurch was an isolated horror, but it isn’t. A couple of weeks ago in Nigeria, within the Commonwealth, thirty two were gunned down at Church. An atrocity seemingly unremarked upon by just about anybody save for Justin Welby and HM. Three weeks prior to that Jolo Cathedral in the Philippines was attacked with twenty seven killed, including the Priest with a further one hundred and eleven wounded.
A rolling catalogue of obscenity. |
The violence in Nigeria is sickening. The attack that happened there this month is one of at least half a dozen similar attacks in the past year or so.
I think the reason it’s ‘different’ to the Christchurch attack is because, although ‘faith based’ on the face of it (attacks largely by majority Moslem tribes against Christians), it’s a civil war being fought between warring tribal groups that happen to be largely of different religions (albeit, as I understand it, the group that committed the latest atrocity is of mixed faith, predominantly or vast majority Moslem , but all of the same tribe of what I’ve seen described as ‘herdsmen’).
The attack in Christchurch isn’t part of a civil war, it’s a lone murderous madman attacking others due solely to their faith. Same as the Manchester bombings - although that wasn’t directly an attack on ‘Christians’ but more accurately a ‘Western way of life’.
The hate that emanates from on one hand the likes of Anjem Choudary and his ilk and on the other Robinson and his ilk are two sides of a social media fuelled coin that is spiralling rapidly out of control. The whole lot of them should be given as little airtime as possible. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 18:16 - Mar 15 with 1755 views | AnotherJohn |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:41 - Mar 15 by londonlisa2001 |
It did qualify it.
The only possible use of the word ‘but’ in a sentence is to qualify what has come before to at least some extent. Your point was that Jewish people didn’t do anything to bring it on themselves, so the inference is clear.
Islam doesn’t have an extremist wing. There are extremists who are, nominally, followers of Islam. That’s a very real difference.
It’s like saying this murderous animal is part of the extremist wing of Christianity. It’s nonsense.
Terrorists are terrorists whatever their ethnicity or faith. By definition people who do this, or the Manchester bombings, or any other atrocity are without anything any sensible person would recognise as faith. And don’t bother with the whole ‘but the Koran...’ because ‘but the Bible...’ as well. |
There were a couple of points in Jonathan's post, and the different clauses of my sentence referred to different points. I basically said that I agree that violence against religious minorities is wrong without qualification, but also that it is incorrect to suggest that the Jewish people of the 1930s had any significant extremist wing. In other words I was saying that their situation does not fit the sentence:
"Two opposing extreme and violent ideologies, feeding on the fear and hatred of the other the grow. "
The implication was that on this basis the similarities with the present day are not as close as suggested. You might as well take Jonathan to task as me for suggesting that extremes exist today, but yes, I plead guilty to thinking that that is the case.
You wish to read things into my post that aren't there, and that is just as much a stretch as it would be for me to allege antisemitism on your part. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 18:35 - Mar 15 with 1721 views | swan85 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 16:23 - Mar 15 by JACKMANANDBOY |
I can not understand in anyway why anyone would want to view/share this. It is beyond my comprehension.
I'm getting fed up with tech companies hiding from their responsibilities.
Some of the billions made could be invested in algorithms to pick this stuff up immediately. The guy charged has apparently been posting extreme stuff on line for a while.
Hate material online is classified as a 'hate crime', presumable sharing it or facilitating sharing it is also a crime. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 16:25]
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Great post. Punitive damages is the way to go until they take their responsibility seriously. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 18:44 - Mar 15 with 1701 views | londonlisa2001 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 18:16 - Mar 15 by AnotherJohn |
There were a couple of points in Jonathan's post, and the different clauses of my sentence referred to different points. I basically said that I agree that violence against religious minorities is wrong without qualification, but also that it is incorrect to suggest that the Jewish people of the 1930s had any significant extremist wing. In other words I was saying that their situation does not fit the sentence:
"Two opposing extreme and violent ideologies, feeding on the fear and hatred of the other the grow. "
The implication was that on this basis the similarities with the present day are not as close as suggested. You might as well take Jonathan to task as me for suggesting that extremes exist today, but yes, I plead guilty to thinking that that is the case.
You wish to read things into my post that aren't there, and that is just as much a stretch as it would be for me to allege antisemitism on your part. |
The two extremist groups he was referring to were White supremacists wnd Islamic terrorists.
He then went on in a separate point to compare the demonisation of Islam with the demonisation of Judaism.
Your post qualified the comparison with saying the Jews didn’t have an extremist arm so the companirison with that time is unfair on Jews. He didn’t ever say the Jews had an extremist arm.
The similarity in the way Moslems are described and talked about now with the way Jews were described and talked about in 1930s Europe is obvious. A ‘normalisation’ of anti Islamic speech is obvious. Look at the papers. Look at people like Tommy Robinson. Katie Hopkins. That prisonplanet bloke. It is everywhere.
The fact that ISIS exist is no justification for any anti Moslem sentiment. It’s a justification for anti ISIS sentiment - and is shared by the Moslems who make up the majority of their victims. So saying ‘ah, but the Jews didn’t have an extremist arm’ is irrelevant to the point. Saying that, whether meant or not, adds justification. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 19:25 - Mar 15 with 1650 views | AnotherJohn |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 18:44 - Mar 15 by londonlisa2001 |
The two extremist groups he was referring to were White supremacists wnd Islamic terrorists.
He then went on in a separate point to compare the demonisation of Islam with the demonisation of Judaism.
Your post qualified the comparison with saying the Jews didn’t have an extremist arm so the companirison with that time is unfair on Jews. He didn’t ever say the Jews had an extremist arm.
The similarity in the way Moslems are described and talked about now with the way Jews were described and talked about in 1930s Europe is obvious. A ‘normalisation’ of anti Islamic speech is obvious. Look at the papers. Look at people like Tommy Robinson. Katie Hopkins. That prisonplanet bloke. It is everywhere.
The fact that ISIS exist is no justification for any anti Moslem sentiment. It’s a justification for anti ISIS sentiment - and is shared by the Moslems who make up the majority of their victims. So saying ‘ah, but the Jews didn’t have an extremist arm’ is irrelevant to the point. Saying that, whether meant or not, adds justification. |
If you expand Jonathan's text you can obviously make it mean whatever you wish it to mean. I merely responded to the words contained in a short post, which may be ambiguous, and said 'I wonder' if it was fair. If you allow that I read the 'similarity' claimed in the second point to mean that it related to the preceding sentence re opposing groups, it is hardly a sin for me to say that Jewish people did not include many extremists. Possibly this is a sensitive issue for some in contemporary left-liberal circles. I said nothing that bears on the last part of your latest post.
As to your claim that 'but' always qualifies a preceding sentence clause consider this one:
"I agree with your first point, but disagree with your second point". Nothing in that second clause qualifies my agreement with your first point.
I am not wasting my time with anything further on this. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 19:28]
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 19:59 - Mar 15 with 1599 views | londonlisa2001 |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 19:25 - Mar 15 by AnotherJohn |
If you expand Jonathan's text you can obviously make it mean whatever you wish it to mean. I merely responded to the words contained in a short post, which may be ambiguous, and said 'I wonder' if it was fair. If you allow that I read the 'similarity' claimed in the second point to mean that it related to the preceding sentence re opposing groups, it is hardly a sin for me to say that Jewish people did not include many extremists. Possibly this is a sensitive issue for some in contemporary left-liberal circles. I said nothing that bears on the last part of your latest post.
As to your claim that 'but' always qualifies a preceding sentence clause consider this one:
"I agree with your first point, but disagree with your second point". Nothing in that second clause qualifies my agreement with your first point.
I am not wasting my time with anything further on this. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 19:28]
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I didn’t expand his text.
Don’t know what is sensitive in left liberal circles as I’m nothing of the sort.
And I didn’t pull you up for saying Jewish people did not include extremists.
You’re barking up completely the wrong tree if you think I’m some Corbyn loving anti semite. | | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 20:06 - Mar 15 with 1586 views | Darran |
49 people dead and another bickerfest.
Sad. | |
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| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 20:16 - Mar 15 with 1574 views | LeonWasGod |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 17:49 - Mar 15 by Darran |
Social media is definitely fuelling it but it’s not just the rancid right it’s also the loony left but people don’t want to hear that. [Post edited 15 Mar 2019 18:19]
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We hear it all the time, as the rancid right never let us forget it (not aimed at you). |  | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 20:21 - Mar 15 with 1561 views | dickythorpe |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 20:06 - Mar 15 by Darran |
49 people dead and another bickerfest.
Sad. |
A shÃt day for a pleasant nation and there's cock waving going on. |  | | |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 20:39 - Mar 15 with 1532 views | Darran |
| New Zealand mosque Shooting on 20:21 - Mar 15 by dickythorpe |
A shÃt day for a pleasant nation and there's cock waving going on. |
Every time Dick,every time. | |
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