| An Independent Wales 17:59 - Jul 28 with 6851 views | SgorioFruit |
Its not a matter of if, more like a matter of WHEN |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 16:24 - Jul 29 with 1011 views | Wingstandwood |
I think the prospect of an independent Wales would absolutely terrify all of rational mind based upon what has gone before.
It's only natural to assume that it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division. And to anyone who says an independent Wales rejoining a EU after a no-deal Brexit event would drive the country forward should ask yourselves this.........Why after so many years of common market/EU membership does Wales have a transport (ITV current affairs reporting) network/system that belongs to the 1960's?
The fact that a leading clinician and SW Wales head of regional cancer services resigned in last resort cry-for-help protest to get desperately required facilities at Singleton Hospital says it all. What utter sh1te we have representing us down Cardiff H.Q. Less power they should have not more. |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 16:31 - Jul 29 with 994 views | Ebo |
| An Independent Wales on 16:24 - Jul 29 by Wingstandwood |
I think the prospect of an independent Wales would absolutely terrify all of rational mind based upon what has gone before.
It's only natural to assume that it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division. And to anyone who says an independent Wales rejoining a EU after a no-deal Brexit event would drive the country forward should ask yourselves this.........Why after so many years of common market/EU membership does Wales have a transport (ITV current affairs reporting) network/system that belongs to the 1960's?
The fact that a leading clinician and SW Wales head of regional cancer services resigned in last resort cry-for-help protest to get desperately required facilities at Singleton Hospital says it all. What utter sh1te we have representing us down Cardiff H.Q. Less power they should have not more. |
"it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division"
No it would not. The whole idea of YesCymru is to eradicate this not to repeat it. |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 16:38 - Jul 29 with 983 views | blaenaugwentjack |
| An Independent Wales on 16:24 - Jul 29 by Wingstandwood |
I think the prospect of an independent Wales would absolutely terrify all of rational mind based upon what has gone before.
It's only natural to assume that it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division. And to anyone who says an independent Wales rejoining a EU after a no-deal Brexit event would drive the country forward should ask yourselves this.........Why after so many years of common market/EU membership does Wales have a transport (ITV current affairs reporting) network/system that belongs to the 1960's?
The fact that a leading clinician and SW Wales head of regional cancer services resigned in last resort cry-for-help protest to get desperately required facilities at Singleton Hospital says it all. What utter sh1te we have representing us down Cardiff H.Q. Less power they should have not more. |
We have a transport system belonging to the 1960,s because Westminster either cancels promised inward investment scheme,s or will not even entertain the idea in the first place. Ask yourself, in what other european country, do you have to go into another country to get from one end of our country to the other by rail? |  | | |
| An Independent Wales on 16:38 - Jul 29 with 983 views | londonlisa2001 |
| An Independent Wales on 15:56 - Jul 29 by Kerouac |
"But an independent Wales within the EU would be more positive and prosperous than a combination of just England and Wales outside the EU. Ideally we’ll all stay as we are. But if not, the UK is finished anyway."
- very telling into the mindset of the elite up in London, in short...
You want to see UK outside the EU? Well you can't have it, and if you find a way to circumnavigate the plot at Westminster to deny you your democratic right? We will break this country up out of spite."
The UK is not finished. There is a huge silent majority that will not allow that to happen.
"The bizarre thing to me of people loving GB, being proud to be ‘British’ yet wanting out of the EU is that the UK is exactly the same thing as the EU, just older. A political union of independent nations. The people currently waving Union flags around would have been the ones moaning about how awful it was that we were joining together to form GB a few hundred years ago. "
This paragraph is so full of ignorance it is laughable.
The UK is the same as the EU?
Accept that we share the same language, same culture, same history, we built an empire together, we went through the Industrial Revolution together, we went through a political awakening together, built some of the world's oldest political institutions together, share the same law, are inter related (you tell me of a British family you know of that doesn't have blood relatives in either England, Ireland, Scotland or Wales...impossible. Now try and think of a British family that doesn't have blood relations on the continent...the vast majority don't).
Whether a political union between countries is a good idea or not depends on where you draw the lines on the map.
The UK makes sense because we are so similar and think so alike that the union is stable, because when we make compromises with each other we are making compromises with our extended family.
What we have to put up with is therefore worth putting up with for the benefits gained from the economy of scale. We are stronger together as a result.
The European Union does not make sense as a political union at all, hence all the friction and tensions and the lack of agreement/compromises between the nations trapped within the EU.
Different languages, different history, different law, different philosophical and political traditions, different cultures and unsettled scores between nations (see Germany and Greece and WWII reparations).
It will break apart. |
“very telling into the mindset of the elite up in London, ”
The greatest con of Brexit is making you think that someone who went to the local comprehensive school in Swansea and is the daughter of a steel worker is the ‘elite’ and Boris Johnson, who went to Eton and is the son of a Conservative MEP, former member of the World Bank and journalist is on your side. And Farage (Dulwich College) and Rees Mogg (Eton), and Richard Tice (Uppingham).
You sound like a complete plum when you say that. You must realise that surely?
And the majority in Scotland, silent or otherwise, want independence in the event of Brexit. So you can allow it, not allow it, whatever, it will happen. And, at that point, the UK is finished in its current state. The rest of your post shows the same degree of incomprehension as the bits mentioned above. No shared European culture and history? Yeah, right. | | | |
| An Independent Wales on 16:59 - Jul 29 with 949 views | Wingstandwood |
| An Independent Wales on 16:31 - Jul 29 by Ebo |
"it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division"
No it would not. The whole idea of YesCymru is to eradicate this not to repeat it. |
Am I right to assume that basically if it's going to be accountable to its own electorate it'll hold elections but ban mainstream parties from standing? Cos everyone knows that if Labour stood it would sweep the board when Welsh voters resort back to habitual tribal/donkey voting.
Either that or it becomes even more undemocratic and bans elections completely? | |
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| An Independent Wales on 17:10 - Jul 29 with 930 views | Ebo |
| An Independent Wales on 16:59 - Jul 29 by Wingstandwood |
Am I right to assume that basically if it's going to be accountable to its own electorate it'll hold elections but ban mainstream parties from standing? Cos everyone knows that if Labour stood it would sweep the board when Welsh voters resort back to habitual tribal/donkey voting.
Either that or it becomes even more undemocratic and bans elections completely? |
There will be elections as we will be a fully democratic nation.
It would not surprise me to see new parties formed either. | |
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| An Independent Wales on 17:24 - Jul 29 with 917 views | Andy1300 |
| An Independent Wales on 20:00 - Jul 28 by builthjack |
It will happen in the next 10 years |
Rubbish |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 17:28 - Jul 29 with 907 views | Neath_Jack |
What a great thread this is.
I'm undecided on this personally.
But reading through the thread from a neutral point of view, the most articulate and sensible arguments are coming from the pro-independent posters. Most interesting. |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 19:52 - Jul 29 with 850 views | Kilkennyjack |
| An Independent Wales on 16:24 - Jul 29 by Wingstandwood |
I think the prospect of an independent Wales would absolutely terrify all of rational mind based upon what has gone before.
It's only natural to assume that it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division. And to anyone who says an independent Wales rejoining a EU after a no-deal Brexit event would drive the country forward should ask yourselves this.........Why after so many years of common market/EU membership does Wales have a transport (ITV current affairs reporting) network/system that belongs to the 1960's?
The fact that a leading clinician and SW Wales head of regional cancer services resigned in last resort cry-for-help protest to get desperately required facilities at Singleton Hospital says it all. What utter sh1te we have representing us down Cardiff H.Q. Less power they should have not more. |
You seem to think that of all the peoples of the world, then the Welsh are uniquely unable to run their own affairs.
I believe thats an accurate summary of what you are posting.
Its what 800 years of people telling you that you are not good enough does to you.
Feck that, our young people can do this, just like every other normal nation in the world.
To take our rightful seat alongside the nations of the world. |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| An Independent Wales on 20:04 - Jul 29 with 846 views | exiledclaseboy |
I’m not nationalist in any way (Welsh or British) but for me independence is simply a matter of demographics and politics. The break up of the UK was/is the inevitable end result of devolution and the rise of nationalist driven populism resulting in Brexit will only accelerate that. It may not be a full break up, may be a looser, federal type union but the UK in its current form is doomed. Just a matter of time. |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 20:16 - Jul 29 with 815 views | londonlisa2001 |
| An Independent Wales on 20:04 - Jul 29 by exiledclaseboy |
I’m not nationalist in any way (Welsh or British) but for me independence is simply a matter of demographics and politics. The break up of the UK was/is the inevitable end result of devolution and the rise of nationalist driven populism resulting in Brexit will only accelerate that. It may not be a full break up, may be a looser, federal type union but the UK in its current form is doomed. Just a matter of time. |
Yep.
The only disagreement I have with you is you think it will take two generations (by which I read 40 years). I think it will happen much more quickly. When Scotland and N Ireland go, it will snowball pretty fast. Within 15-20 years would be my guess. | | | |
| An Independent Wales on 20:17 - Jul 29 with 806 views | exiledclaseboy |
| An Independent Wales on 20:16 - Jul 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Yep.
The only disagreement I have with you is you think it will take two generations (by which I read 40 years). I think it will happen much more quickly. When Scotland and N Ireland go, it will snowball pretty fast. Within 15-20 years would be my guess. |
May well do, Brexit will certainly accelerate it, Brexit with no deal will accelerate it quicker. | |
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| An Independent Wales on 20:20 - Jul 29 with 795 views | londonlisa2001 |
| An Independent Wales on 20:17 - Jul 29 by exiledclaseboy |
May well do, Brexit will certainly accelerate it, Brexit with no deal will accelerate it quicker. |
If we don’t Brexit, then I think it will all die down again, although I think a gradual move to the type of federalism you mention will still happen. As much as anything, that will be forced by English regions. The wealth inequality throughout the UK will demand it. | | | |
| An Independent Wales on 20:25 - Jul 29 with 789 views | exiledclaseboy |
| An Independent Wales on 20:20 - Jul 29 by londonlisa2001 |
If we don’t Brexit, then I think it will all die down again, although I think a gradual move to the type of federalism you mention will still happen. As much as anything, that will be forced by English regions. The wealth inequality throughout the UK will demand it. |
And that’s a point that’s often missed in these nationalism/independence debates around the future of the UK. It’s not just Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, there are rising breakaway/separatist movements in a number of regions of England as well. These aren’t (mostly) fuelled by nationalistic/patriotic feelings like they are in Wales et al but other factors are in play like the one you mentioned. England is the only country in the UK that doesn’t have its own legislative assembly. That would probably piss me off if I was English. I’m not though so I don’t care. | |
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| An Independent Wales on 20:50 - Jul 29 with 766 views | Kilkennyjack |
| An Independent Wales on 20:25 - Jul 29 by exiledclaseboy |
And that’s a point that’s often missed in these nationalism/independence debates around the future of the UK. It’s not just Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, there are rising breakaway/separatist movements in a number of regions of England as well. These aren’t (mostly) fuelled by nationalistic/patriotic feelings like they are in Wales et al but other factors are in play like the one you mentioned. England is the only country in the UK that doesn’t have its own legislative assembly. That would probably piss me off if I was English. I’m not though so I don’t care. |
At the end of June 2019, Boris addressed this one in a speech in Carlisle.
He said ...
‘asked about where there could be more English devolution for those who feel there is a “democratic deficit”, he said: “I’ve often thought about that and actually I do think there’s a case for devolution in England.
“There are things you can do. But I’m not convinced of the case for an England-only parliament. We have an England parliament, it’s in Westminster.’
So there you go, from the horses mouth ... westminster is for England. And , in truth, England only. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| An Independent Wales on 21:00 - Jul 29 with 763 views | Jack59 |
| An Independent Wales on 16:24 - Jul 29 by Wingstandwood |
I think the prospect of an independent Wales would absolutely terrify all of rational mind based upon what has gone before.
It's only natural to assume that it would be independence with the same mainstream parties pursuing yet more Cardiff centric governance and Thatcherite-esque regional division. And to anyone who says an independent Wales rejoining a EU after a no-deal Brexit event would drive the country forward should ask yourselves this.........Why after so many years of common market/EU membership does Wales have a transport (ITV current affairs reporting) network/system that belongs to the 1960's?
The fact that a leading clinician and SW Wales head of regional cancer services resigned in last resort cry-for-help protest to get desperately required facilities at Singleton Hospital says it all. What utter sh1te we have representing us down Cardiff H.Q. Less power they should have not more. |
Independence from Cardiff is what we need in Swansea and South West Wales.
The Welsh Labour / Plaid alliance has been a total disaster for virtually all of Wales except Cardiff. Many years ago you could have relied upon the Welsh media to highlight the failings of the WAG, but for as long as everything works to the benefit of Cardiff, the Welsh/Cardiff Media allow them 'Carte Blanche' It's a disgrace!
Last week it was announced that £2bn would be set aside for a pay rise for nurses,
police officers, and teachers. The BBC national news bulletins opened all day with the story, as did ITV news and Sky. BBC Wales Today never even mentioned it, they probably didn't want to embarrass the Welsh Government. That sums it up. | | | |
| An Independent Wales on 21:49 - Jul 29 with 727 views | Kilkennyjack |
the British State generates less money in taxes than it spends ..
2018 deficit - £32bn
Overall debt - £1821.bn
Can the UK really afford to be independent ? | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| An Independent Wales on 22:03 - Jul 29 with 715 views | sherpajacob |
| An Independent Wales on 21:49 - Jul 29 by Kilkennyjack |
the British State generates less money in taxes than it spends ..
2018 deficit - £32bn
Overall debt - £1821.bn
Can the UK really afford to be independent ? |
And without the net contribution from EU migrants the deficit would be even worse. |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 23:21 - Jul 29 with 680 views | BytholWyn |
I think it's fair to say that a fair few of my compatriots are suffering from Skokholm syndrome. |  | | |
| An Independent Wales on 23:40 - Jul 29 with 674 views | Ebo |
| An Independent Wales on 21:00 - Jul 29 by Jack59 |
Independence from Cardiff is what we need in Swansea and South West Wales.
The Welsh Labour / Plaid alliance has been a total disaster for virtually all of Wales except Cardiff. Many years ago you could have relied upon the Welsh media to highlight the failings of the WAG, but for as long as everything works to the benefit of Cardiff, the Welsh/Cardiff Media allow them 'Carte Blanche' It's a disgrace!
Last week it was announced that £2bn would be set aside for a pay rise for nurses,
police officers, and teachers. The BBC national news bulletins opened all day with the story, as did ITV news and Sky. BBC Wales Today never even mentioned it, they probably didn't want to embarrass the Welsh Government. That sums it up. |
The Yes Cymru movement is for ALL of Wales. many of those members and prominent figures are from West and North Wales. | |
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| An Independent Wales on 00:34 - Jul 30 with 661 views | Kerouac |
| An Independent Wales on 07:37 - Jul 29 by Kilkennyjack |
Well i think the welsh people deserve a fair deal, and it looks like progressive change is needed to achieve it.
If people think Boris the clown gives a toss about Wales (why would he ?), then they are seriously misled.
Ireland is doing much better than wales. Why ? |
"progressive"
Orwellian language, propaganda, has now been adopted wholesale by the left.
Capitalism is good.
Capitalism has made everybody on the planet's living standards rise.
How come everybody who spouts anti-capitalist bollocks calls themselves a "progressive"?
The reason why Wales is poorer than other regions of the UK or even Denmark is because we don't have enough people who are entrepreneurs, and the reason for that is because of a century+ of bullshit from our politicians in Wales who like to preach that making money is somehow dirty and immoral.
"If people think Boris the clown gives a toss about Wales (why would he ?), then they are seriously misled."
If Boris doesn't give a toss about Wales why the f*ck then should anyone assume that some Frenchman or German would?
"Ireland is doing much better than wales. Why ?"
Ireland is not doing much better than Wales. Why has rural, backward, Ireland seen an uptick in the last couple of decades?
Major factors include;
1 - Subsidy from the EU (that's our money, as the 2nd largest contributors). Ireland will have to be contributors to the EU budget from here on in though. Good luck.
2 - Investment from American business...because Ireland turned itself into a low tax economy for business THE EU HAS PLEDGED TO PUT A STOP TO THAT THOUGH, JUST WAIT UNTIL THEY'RE DONE USING YOU DURING THE BREXIT PROCESS, and because American business saw it as the next best thing to investing in the UK what with sharing a language etc.
Will American business feel the same way after Brexit when we have a trade deal and are taxed more competitively than Ireland?
3 - The UK economy has grown faster than the EU economy in the last 2/3 decades and we are their best customer.
Will the Irish economy be damaged if we end up leaving on a no deal? You bet your arse it will...maybe that's the best example of how the French and the Germans couldn't give less of a toss about small provincial outposts of the EU. |  |
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| An Independent Wales on 00:55 - Jul 30 with 651 views | Kerouac |
| An Independent Wales on 09:33 - Jul 29 by BytholWyn |
I mean seriously... So, the GDP figures for Ireland are made up then...
Of course there are poorer and richer parts of all countries, but you'll find it hard to find a country in Europe with greater disparity between rich and poor regions/nations as the UK. Those are facts. Rather inconvenient for your argument but facts nevertheless. |
There is such a disparity only because London is one of 3 financial hubs for the World.
Your argument is a bit like saying Everton is a poor club because of the disparity between them and Man City...Everton are still one of the wealthiest clubs in the World however, even if that is only possible because they happen to be in the same league as Man City/Man Utd/Arsenal/Chelsea/Liverpool and are therefore "subsidised" by the TV money coming their way via the Premier League.
However, there is very little disparity between the clubs of the Danish league, their richest club is still a damn site worse off than Everton though.
The fact is that Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland and regions of England are all subsidised by London...but that's ok because London needs the UK as much as we need London...just as Man City need Everton and the likes of Crystal Palace to do what they do...and Everton/Palace would be poorer without Man City. | |
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| An Independent Wales on 01:06 - Jul 30 with 642 views | Kerouac |
| An Independent Wales on 09:52 - Jul 29 by Ebo |
Except we can't influence govt in London, we've tried and failed and constantly get ignored. When the inevitable happens we will have no choice but to push for Welsh ref like it or not. |
We have had a Welsh Prime Minister.
We have had many Welsh cabinet ministers.
We have a Welsh Assembly which means that how the money is spent in Wales is largely decided by Welsh politicians we elect...and the Welsh Assembly has more money to spend on Wales than Welsh tax payers generate.
We are also part of a political system where 3/4 parties depend on our votes for their seats at Westminster...we, the Welsh, diminish our power at the ballot box by returning the same political party at each and every election MAKING THE COURTING OF OUR VOTES BY THE MAJOR POLITICAL PARTIES VIRTUALLY POINTLESS AND IRRELEVANT.
How on earth do you think you'll have more influence in a Wales that uses the Euro (so monetary policy is set in Germany) and surrenders much of it's policy and law to the European Commission?!?!?!?
You know, that place where the top jobs are always divvied out amongst the big boys in backroom deals conducted in a different language.
Please at least try to explain that one... | |
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| An Independent Wales on 01:58 - Jul 30 with 632 views | Kerouac |
| An Independent Wales on 16:38 - Jul 29 by londonlisa2001 |
“very telling into the mindset of the elite up in London, ”
The greatest con of Brexit is making you think that someone who went to the local comprehensive school in Swansea and is the daughter of a steel worker is the ‘elite’ and Boris Johnson, who went to Eton and is the son of a Conservative MEP, former member of the World Bank and journalist is on your side. And Farage (Dulwich College) and Rees Mogg (Eton), and Richard Tice (Uppingham).
You sound like a complete plum when you say that. You must realise that surely?
And the majority in Scotland, silent or otherwise, want independence in the event of Brexit. So you can allow it, not allow it, whatever, it will happen. And, at that point, the UK is finished in its current state. The rest of your post shows the same degree of incomprehension as the bits mentioned above. No shared European culture and history? Yeah, right. |
Everyone up and down this country know exactly who is doing the conning thanks...
- The Westminster establishment
- The Labour Party
- The frauds at the BBC who have the brass neck to call themselves journalists.
Don't believe me?
This isn't an opinion, this is fact, demonstrable...
- The referendum result itself.
- The last General Election, which the Tories won with the most votes ever, campaigning on a platform of Brexit means Brexit.
(I don't know if you remember but Labour played a con trick on the electorate, also campaigning on a Brexit platform...when speaking to their working class audience... whilst speaking over the heads of the working class to reassure every middle-class 'Remainer' in the land that a vote for them was the best way to try and block Brexit at Westminster...chuck in the old "the milky bars are on me" trick and they managed to get the result they wanted.
Now however, the TRUTH is out and they will have to fight the forthcoming election with all of their Brexit voters understanding fully what their game has been. Good luck with that one!
- The European elections which every 'Remainer' I know threw themselves into...for some of them it must have been the first time they'd ever voted in a European election never mind campaigned...oh how they wanted to make a point at that one...and we ALL know who actually won at the ballot box don't we.
You are part of the London elite Lisa, don't play that "how much money have they got?" and "where did they go to school?" game with me...
Do you really want me to go through the list of Labour grandees, ministers and prominent 'Remainer's?
You must know that they are largely from similar backgrounds as your little list.
By your logic Ted Heath wasn't a part of the London elite, because his father was a carpenter and his mother a maid...Maggie Thatcher wasn't part of the elite because of her background...John Major etc.
You are a member of the elite because you moved to London for the big bucks and you are doing very well (thank-you very much) and because you are in that tiny little red section of the referendum map that voted remain.
It is SO amusing that you have spent so much time and energy arguing for our membership of a political union (the EU) yet when it comes to the small political union you and your ancestors have always been a part of (the UK)...you can't bring yourself to respect the vote of the other citizens of that political union.
This attitude betrays your elitism.
Your support for the EU therefore makes perfect sense, because it has constructed political institutions that are designed to ignore the wishes of provincial voters, a plutocracy.
The majority in Scotland you talk about?
May I remind you that at the last General Election...you know, the one AFTER the referendum result to leave the EU, the one where both of the major political parties of Westminster campaigned on a Brexit ticket...the SNP LOST 21 (T-W-E-N-T-Y O-N-E) seats in Scotland.
Now, please elaborate on our shared European culture and History and honestly compare the EU with the UK on this metric.
Go on, I dare you  | |
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| An Independent Wales on 07:57 - Jul 30 with 586 views | Yossarian |
| An Independent Wales on 09:05 - Jul 29 by Kilkennyjack |
Go home , eh ?
Maybe you might want to go to Trumps new America ?
And black and brown people who disagree with you ?
Should they go home as well ?
Its a nasty little message dressed up in some posh words.
So feck you.
Wales is having this debate like it or not. |
Read my post again you thick kent. No one, except you, said ‘Go home’, no one , except you, mentioned people of different skin colour. Just goes to show how twisted the Nationalist are. Someone who doesn’t share their little world view it’s enough to provoke your nasty bile and vitriol. Dream on son....because that’s all you’ve got. You certainly aren’t capable of persuasion. |  |
| "Yossarian- the very sight of the name made him shudder.There were so many esses in it. It just had to be subversive" (Catch 22) |
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