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Does Brexit die tonight? 11:59 - Sep 3 with 12269 viewswestwalesed

When this bill passes, which I expect it to, my understanding is that the EU theoretically can propose a different extension to the proposed January 31st, 2020 date currently in the bill.

The bill states that the PM has to accept that date, and that Parliament has two days to either accept or reject it (thereby putting any future extension date in the hands of Parliament as opposed to the PM). Given that we have a remain leaning parliament currently it's hard tp see how any proposed date would be rejected.

PM Johnson would then seek an election as he has stated, but now that it is looking as if the opposition parties may not get to the two-thirds of MPs required to trigger it, there will be no election at all. What then?

With a Govt that has to accept any date given and Parliament refusing to give him an opportunity to change the make up of the Commons, is this the day that Brexit dies?

Is it revoking A50 by the back door?

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:28 - Sep 8 with 539 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:11 - Sep 8 by Highjack

If only those racist thick economically unproductive old people would all snuff it then we’d be living in paradise with money pouring out of our pockets. The selfish c*nts.


Again, no one has said that.

Stop making stuff up.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:09 - Sep 8 with 509 viewsGroo

I'm sure nobody wants a no deal, but it has to be on the table.

By not allowing the UK to even threaten no deal means that the EU side will have no reason to buckle and compromise on anything.

They know that any current no deal threat is empty, the remainders are purposely removing the capability of the government to effectively negotiate. The reason of course is they don't want Brexit and by taking away no deal they know that they can, with the EU, reverse Brexit.

So much for democracy.

Groo does what Groo does best

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:28 - Sep 8 with 492 viewsGowerjack

Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:09 - Sep 8 by Groo

I'm sure nobody wants a no deal, but it has to be on the table.

By not allowing the UK to even threaten no deal means that the EU side will have no reason to buckle and compromise on anything.

They know that any current no deal threat is empty, the remainders are purposely removing the capability of the government to effectively negotiate. The reason of course is they don't want Brexit and by taking away no deal they know that they can, with the EU, reverse Brexit.

So much for democracy.


This is of course nonsense peddled by the snake oil salesmen to confuse the hard of thinking.

Plastic since 1974
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:42 - Sep 8 with 482 viewsGroo

Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:28 - Sep 8 by Gowerjack

This is of course nonsense peddled by the snake oil salesmen to confuse the hard of thinking.


Of course its not nonsense.

In any negotiation you need the tools to do the job, removing something, the only thing, that would make one side negotiate will mean you have no chance of getting the deal you want.

They're great deal means Britain would leave but still be bound by rules and regulations that Britain would no longer have a say in. That is what they want, without a threat of no deal, they will never change from that.

Groo does what Groo does best

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:45 - Sep 8 with 470 viewsJango

Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:28 - Sep 8 by Gowerjack

This is of course nonsense peddled by the snake oil salesmen to confuse the hard of thinking.


No, that is the response of someone hard of thinking. EU and the remainers have been colluding from the very beginning. Anyone who argues against that is either deluded or in blatant denial.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:48 - Sep 8 with 470 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:10 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

It’s not intimating anything of the sort.

It’s a statement of fact.

If you are older than working age you are, by definition, a recipient at that point rather than a contributor (the odd exception being someone whose tax on private income from investment is higher than their receipts - that is very much a minority position).

People of that age are protected against economic uncertainty and collapse. Because of the lock. The lock could be withdrawn in theory, but even Corbyn hasn’t suggested it is.

No one is suggesting anyone’s opinion is weighted less for any reason. Age, employment status, whatever. I certainly haven’t. But the economics of the situation are what they are. Someone of 79 is never going to be economically active, and so they are not gambling their own money.

Stop making accusations Bluey. It’s really becoming annoying.


"If you are older than working age you are, by definition, a recipient at that point rather than a contributor (the odd exception being someone whose tax on private income from investment is higher than their receipts - that is very much a minority position). "

You have outdone yourself.

I am over 65 and paid National Insurance for 40 years which according to the Government ENTITLES me to an Old Age Pension, one of the worst in the top EU countries by the way. So my old age pension is not FREE, I paid for it, I also contributed so that every body using the welfare state and National Health Service who have not contributed can do so.
I paid into a Company Pension for 38 years which provides for a very moderate pension.
I have paid Income Tax for 52 years and still do so.
Now for the part that you totally dismiss, all those people who have and still do pay in to Pension Schemes are providing money for investment in Business, if we all took it out and blew it on world cruises the Country would be in dire straights.

Now compare that to someone who has never worked and never contributed a penny to the running of the the country.
But I do not begrudge them a vote, maybe I should as they are nothing but a burden and most likely their kids will be too and will probably vote to increase the welfare state even further.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:03 - Sep 8 with 443 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:48 - Sep 8 by A_Fans_Dad

"If you are older than working age you are, by definition, a recipient at that point rather than a contributor (the odd exception being someone whose tax on private income from investment is higher than their receipts - that is very much a minority position). "

You have outdone yourself.

I am over 65 and paid National Insurance for 40 years which according to the Government ENTITLES me to an Old Age Pension, one of the worst in the top EU countries by the way. So my old age pension is not FREE, I paid for it, I also contributed so that every body using the welfare state and National Health Service who have not contributed can do so.
I paid into a Company Pension for 38 years which provides for a very moderate pension.
I have paid Income Tax for 52 years and still do so.
Now for the part that you totally dismiss, all those people who have and still do pay in to Pension Schemes are providing money for investment in Business, if we all took it out and blew it on world cruises the Country would be in dire straights.

Now compare that to someone who has never worked and never contributed a penny to the running of the the country.
But I do not begrudge them a vote, maybe I should as they are nothing but a burden and most likely their kids will be too and will probably vote to increase the welfare state even further.


That’s all great. But isn’t what I was saying. Even slightly.

As an aside, since it was irrelevant to the post I actually made, your tax and NI didn’t pay for your state pension. That’s not the way it works. It paid for the pensions of the people who were retired when you were working. Your pension is being paid by the people in work now.
Your private pension is different. That will have been paid on either a defined benefit or defined contribution basis. Probably defined benefit at least initially due to your age, although it may have converted at some point to defined contribution (as many companies did that in the 1990s onwards). That pension pot went into an investment plan to pay your pension. Managed by trustees outside the company (not for all your working life over that length of time - the pension pot used to be more fungible with the other company assets until legislation was tightened after Maxwell). It’s a little more complicated than that in practice because of pension deficits, changes in equity returns over the past years and so on, but simplistically it’s ‘your’ money being used. Of course, the public purse still acts as an insurance policy through the PPF which again complicates as it requires people in work now to pay, but I don’t have time, or inclination to fully explain.

The state doesn’t build up a pot. It’s effectively a ponzi scheme. And it’s the numbers of retirees requiring that state pension by the way, along with falling birth rates among the ‘British’ population that require us to have immigrants. We need them to pay your pension.
Decisions decisions.
[Post edited 8 Sep 16:04]
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:40 - Sep 8 with 404 viewsKilkennyjack

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:03 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

That’s all great. But isn’t what I was saying. Even slightly.

As an aside, since it was irrelevant to the post I actually made, your tax and NI didn’t pay for your state pension. That’s not the way it works. It paid for the pensions of the people who were retired when you were working. Your pension is being paid by the people in work now.
Your private pension is different. That will have been paid on either a defined benefit or defined contribution basis. Probably defined benefit at least initially due to your age, although it may have converted at some point to defined contribution (as many companies did that in the 1990s onwards). That pension pot went into an investment plan to pay your pension. Managed by trustees outside the company (not for all your working life over that length of time - the pension pot used to be more fungible with the other company assets until legislation was tightened after Maxwell). It’s a little more complicated than that in practice because of pension deficits, changes in equity returns over the past years and so on, but simplistically it’s ‘your’ money being used. Of course, the public purse still acts as an insurance policy through the PPF which again complicates as it requires people in work now to pay, but I don’t have time, or inclination to fully explain.

The state doesn’t build up a pot. It’s effectively a ponzi scheme. And it’s the numbers of retirees requiring that state pension by the way, along with falling birth rates among the ‘British’ population that require us to have immigrants. We need them to pay your pension.
Decisions decisions.
[Post edited 8 Sep 16:04]


Great post 👏

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:49 - Sep 8 with 397 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:03 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

That’s all great. But isn’t what I was saying. Even slightly.

As an aside, since it was irrelevant to the post I actually made, your tax and NI didn’t pay for your state pension. That’s not the way it works. It paid for the pensions of the people who were retired when you were working. Your pension is being paid by the people in work now.
Your private pension is different. That will have been paid on either a defined benefit or defined contribution basis. Probably defined benefit at least initially due to your age, although it may have converted at some point to defined contribution (as many companies did that in the 1990s onwards). That pension pot went into an investment plan to pay your pension. Managed by trustees outside the company (not for all your working life over that length of time - the pension pot used to be more fungible with the other company assets until legislation was tightened after Maxwell). It’s a little more complicated than that in practice because of pension deficits, changes in equity returns over the past years and so on, but simplistically it’s ‘your’ money being used. Of course, the public purse still acts as an insurance policy through the PPF which again complicates as it requires people in work now to pay, but I don’t have time, or inclination to fully explain.

The state doesn’t build up a pot. It’s effectively a ponzi scheme. And it’s the numbers of retirees requiring that state pension by the way, along with falling birth rates among the ‘British’ population that require us to have immigrants. We need them to pay your pension.
Decisions decisions.
[Post edited 8 Sep 16:04]


Please provide catagorical evidence that my NICs were used to pays previously retired workers. Because obviously the Government are yet again lying to us, along with most other references that I have looked at.
You confidently make lots of statements without providing references that prove what you say.

More bullshit "And it’s the numbers of retirees requiring that state pension by the way, along with falling birth rates among the ‘British’ population that require us to have immigrants. We need them to pay your pension."
To compensate for less people paying in it is only necessary to increase the NI payment, but Governments are disinclined to do so.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:55 - Sep 8 with 390 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:49 - Sep 8 by A_Fans_Dad

Please provide catagorical evidence that my NICs were used to pays previously retired workers. Because obviously the Government are yet again lying to us, along with most other references that I have looked at.
You confidently make lots of statements without providing references that prove what you say.

More bullshit "And it’s the numbers of retirees requiring that state pension by the way, along with falling birth rates among the ‘British’ population that require us to have immigrants. We need them to pay your pension."
To compensate for less people paying in it is only necessary to increase the NI payment, but Governments are disinclined to do so.


https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2787888/how-state-pension-f

Knock yourself out.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:57 - Sep 8 with 383 viewsexiledclaseboy

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:55 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2787888/how-state-pension-f

Knock yourself out.


That’ll be fake news or some such I’d imagine.

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:01 - Sep 8 with 377 viewsFlashberryjack

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:55 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2787888/how-state-pension-f

Knock yourself out.


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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:02 - Sep 8 with 376 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:57 - Sep 8 by exiledclaseboy

That’ll be fake news or some such I’d imagine.


Oh probably.

I actually thought everyone realised the way the state pension works and is funded. It’s hardly a secret.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:20 - Sep 8 with 353 viewssherpajacob

Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:09 - Sep 8 by Groo

I'm sure nobody wants a no deal, but it has to be on the table.

By not allowing the UK to even threaten no deal means that the EU side will have no reason to buckle and compromise on anything.

They know that any current no deal threat is empty, the remainders are purposely removing the capability of the government to effectively negotiate. The reason of course is they don't want Brexit and by taking away no deal they know that they can, with the EU, reverse Brexit.

So much for democracy.


No deal is either a threat to be used in negotiations or nothing to be worried about.

Which is it?

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:24 - Sep 8 with 345 viewssherpajacob

Does Brexit die tonight? on 16:03 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

That’s all great. But isn’t what I was saying. Even slightly.

As an aside, since it was irrelevant to the post I actually made, your tax and NI didn’t pay for your state pension. That’s not the way it works. It paid for the pensions of the people who were retired when you were working. Your pension is being paid by the people in work now.
Your private pension is different. That will have been paid on either a defined benefit or defined contribution basis. Probably defined benefit at least initially due to your age, although it may have converted at some point to defined contribution (as many companies did that in the 1990s onwards). That pension pot went into an investment plan to pay your pension. Managed by trustees outside the company (not for all your working life over that length of time - the pension pot used to be more fungible with the other company assets until legislation was tightened after Maxwell). It’s a little more complicated than that in practice because of pension deficits, changes in equity returns over the past years and so on, but simplistically it’s ‘your’ money being used. Of course, the public purse still acts as an insurance policy through the PPF which again complicates as it requires people in work now to pay, but I don’t have time, or inclination to fully explain.

The state doesn’t build up a pot. It’s effectively a ponzi scheme. And it’s the numbers of retirees requiring that state pension by the way, along with falling birth rates among the ‘British’ population that require us to have immigrants. We need them to pay your pension.
Decisions decisions.
[Post edited 8 Sep 16:04]


All good, but I'll also add that if your "company" pension is a public sector scheme, it is also effectively a ponzi scheme and you are costing the country a fortune.

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:27 - Sep 8 with 344 viewsexiledclaseboy

Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:24 - Sep 8 by sherpajacob

All good, but I'll also add that if your "company" pension is a public sector scheme, it is also effectively a ponzi scheme and you are costing the country a fortune.


Sorry.

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:31 - Sep 8 with 334 viewssherpajacob

Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:27 - Sep 8 by exiledclaseboy

Sorry.


I forgive you, it wasn't your fault.

It just reinforces the recent research that shows the only segment of the population making a,positive contribution to the exchequer are EU migrants.

Those born and bred in the UK cost the country money.

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:34 - Sep 8 with 329 viewsHighjack

Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:24 - Sep 8 by sherpajacob

All good, but I'll also add that if your "company" pension is a public sector scheme, it is also effectively a ponzi scheme and you are costing the country a fortune.


And he drinks which puts a massive strain on the nhs as only drunk people use it the utter bastard.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:13 - Sep 8 with 291 viewsGowerjack

Does Brexit die tonight? on 15:45 - Sep 8 by Jango

No, that is the response of someone hard of thinking. EU and the remainers have been colluding from the very beginning. Anyone who argues against that is either deluded or in blatant denial.


So we sit at the table with Mr Barnier and tell him unless he gives us the deal we want we are going to do something really stupid that will hurt us much more than it hurts you..

That's a good plan and meanwhile in the real world it has failed hence your latest outbreak of full on tin foil hattery.

You're too far down the rabbit hole mate beyond help or reason.

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:29 - Sep 8 with 273 viewssherpajacob

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1170667320097869824

Nothing of importance here, because Johnson and his team are working round the clock to deliver a,deal and making great progress.

The UK PM wouldn't lie about something of such importance, would he?

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:48 - Sep 8 with 258 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:24 - Sep 8 by sherpajacob

All good, but I'll also add that if your "company" pension is a public sector scheme, it is also effectively a ponzi scheme and you are costing the country a fortune.


It is. But fansdad has previously said he worked at Ford, so I’ve made the assumption it’s their company scheme.

No public pensions or nationalised pensions are funded. There is a nominal calculation done (eg the national insurance ‘pot’) but it’s not a pot of actual money, just a number.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:50 - Sep 8 with 255 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:29 - Sep 8 by sherpajacob

https://mobile.twitter.com/i/web/status/1170667320097869824

Nothing of importance here, because Johnson and his team are working round the clock to deliver a,deal and making great progress.

The UK PM wouldn't lie about something of such importance, would he?


The French have said they’ll veto in the ‘current circumstances’. Which won’t exist when they’re asked. Plus Macron wouldn’t dare as everyone (including the government) would then blame him for no deal chaos.
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Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:56 - Sep 8 with 242 viewsmonmouth

Does Brexit die tonight? on 17:02 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

Oh probably.

I actually thought everyone realised the way the state pension works and is funded. It’s hardly a secret.


Me too. Do people think they are investing NI conts?? Do they even think NI conts are hypothecated to NHS, benefits and pensions?

Unfunded scheme, just like the civil service gold plated final salary ones.

Coudn't resist, obviously....

Actually now the DVLC is an A, are the pensions contributory and less generous, or are they still leeching off the taxpayer udder?



Edit. Just seen Sherpa beat me to it. Bloody Sherpas. first up everest, first to bring rich mandarins to book...
[Post edited 8 Sep 19:01]

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:58 - Sep 8 with 239 viewsmonmouth

Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:50 - Sep 8 by londonlisa2001

The French have said they’ll veto in the ‘current circumstances’. Which won’t exist when they’re asked. Plus Macron wouldn’t dare as everyone (including the government) would then blame him for no deal chaos.


Could they veto with the proviso that the UK parliament chooses between no deal, WA or remain?

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Does Brexit die tonight? on 19:00 - Sep 8 with 232 viewslondonlisa2001

Does Brexit die tonight? on 18:58 - Sep 8 by monmouth

Could they veto with the proviso that the UK parliament chooses between no deal, WA or remain?


I wouldn’t think so.

But by the date, we’ll probably know when an election is going to be and they’ll change the date to allow for that.
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