| Does Brexit die tonight? 11:59 - Sep 3 with 29776 views | westwalesed |
When this bill passes, which I expect it to, my understanding is that the EU theoretically can propose a different extension to the proposed January 31st, 2020 date currently in the bill.
The bill states that the PM has to accept that date, and that Parliament has two days to either accept or reject it (thereby putting any future extension date in the hands of Parliament as opposed to the PM). Given that we have a remain leaning parliament currently it's hard tp see how any proposed date would be rejected.
PM Johnson would then seek an election as he has stated, but now that it is looking as if the opposition parties may not get to the two-thirds of MPs required to trigger it, there will be no election at all. What then?
With a Govt that has to accept any date given and Parliament refusing to give him an opportunity to change the make up of the Commons, is this the day that Brexit dies?
Is it revoking A50 by the back door? |  |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 09:39 - Sep 9 with 1229 views | LeonWasGod |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 23:23 - Sep 8 by jackrmee |
Either the Boris wants them leaked for reasons unknown, or the people above him want to ruin the kunt |
I'm assuming it's all part of Cumming's master plan to sow discord and confusion. Could well be wrong though - I suppose it could equally be a civil servant who's fed up with the utter bollox coming out on No. 10. |  | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 10:46 - Sep 9 with 1205 views | DdraigGoch |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 22:09 - Sep 8 by Catullus |
The state pension, really? How it is funded is irrelevant. You have to pay into the system to be entitled to it. That you are paying for the already retired to have their pensions doesn't matter, if you don't pay in, you don't get it, simple.
Right, SherpaJacob, you claim that Wales could be self sufficient for water, electricity and food. So tell me, how much would we need to spend on infrastructure to gain self sufficiency? Who would lend us the money? Bearing in mind we'd start from a position of roughly 100 billion in debt the first year and tax receipts that don't cover much more than the NHS, schools and policing.
Wales could be indepedent one day but that day is a long way off and first we need to get Westminster to stump up money to invest in our infrastructure and economy. Scotland gets a far better settlement than us, we need better political representatives so we can can at least try and squeeze more money out of Westminster.
Whatever happens, the Senedd needs to spend money elsewhere besides the SE corner.
Question Sherpajacob, how much food do we grow in Wales? How much actual crop growing land is there? I'll save you the bother, mostly. We only grow around 20% of the food we eat in Wales because most farmland is not suitable for growing crops, it is mostly used as grazing land. Dairy farming is in hard times with milk production barely covering it's own costs. We have approx 86000 acres of horticultural land. That is roughly half compared to the 60's possibly partly because of the population increase and new houses being built on former farmland.
The last few pages of this thread are really depressing and demonstrate amply why this country is screwed for decades to come. Whatever happens with brexit, many people are long past proper debate. They want to argue, ridicule, dismiss and insult those they disagree with.
Take the points about people of a certain age.....those people mostly have kids. They didn't vote for brexit to ruin their own kids futures. Most certainly they want better for their kids than they had. Are they economically inactive? It depends on which perspective you take but older people spend their money and this year it has been found that the "Bank of Mum and Dad" equates to being the 10th largest mortgage provider in the UK, helping their kids get on the property ladder, very selfish that is eh!
They have also usually paid into the system which is more than unemployed school leavers have done, more than people who earn less than the tax allowance do since the inception of working tax credits, child allowance etc. The economically inactive are not just the elderly and it's not just the elderly who are net recipients.
Someone please tell me what our options are now? None of the remainers want to admit it but we have been manouvered into a remain position by politicians who have worked with the EU. It was all over the media that MP's checked with the EU before passing the law stopping no deal. Why have our politicians turned down every single option that allows us to leave if they are not working towards remain? They won't have another referendum because apart from it not solving anything unless we vote very strongly to remain, what if we actually voted even more strongly to leave, they don't trust the electorate to vote the way they want.
Yes Boris has taken a kicking inside Westminster yet outside that place his popularity has grown whilst Corbyn's has shrunk. Is that because to most people, no matter how they voted, brexit must be sorted and finished with, we cannot keep this nonsense going indefinitely, how harmful would that be?
There are rabid brexiteers and there are rabid remainers, neither will accept they can possibly be wrong, both tell lies and make predictions for the a future they cannot possibly know.
Worst of these (to me at least) are the WelshNats who insist leaving the EU will be disastrous but leaving the UK will make us better off. The EU gives us a net 250 million approx, Westminster gives us a net 8 BILLION approx. These Nats are both rabid leaver AND remainers who often display extreme hostility towards England, the English and the "English Government"
Brexit needs to be finished with one way or the other and soon. We need to stop arguing, stop throwing insults and find common ground, move ahead.
Whatever happens, anyone who claims to know what the future will bring (if we leave or remain) is every bit as much of a liar as Boris Johnson.
When I voted leave it was in the hope of a better future. Just like in a General Election, I made a choice and hoped for the best, what the future will bring for myself and my son, I will have to wait and see. |
Great post Catullus! Well reasoned with great points being made along the way. | | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 11:25 - Sep 9 with 1170 views | costalotta |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 09:17 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
I mostly agree but.....if Parliament revokes A50 or by other means forces a remain outcome, are Parliament not acting against the will of the people and wouldn't that be illegal or at least immoral and to many people an act of treason? |
Far from being any sort of expert on the subject... but given the Ref was advisory then no law would be broken? Immoral, not sure about that neither, in Which way? And finally treason, I would have thought not. What it would be is sensible in that it would allow us to reset. Give us time. If we want to triggerA50 in the future and once we’ve actually got an idea of what we want and actually need to do to both leave properly and mitigate an damage to our country and all allow us to build it going forward and to simultaneously prosper. [Post edited 9 Sep 2019 11:25]
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 11:46 - Sep 9 with 1152 views | JJJack |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 10:46 - Sep 9 by DdraigGoch |
Great post Catullus! Well reasoned with great points being made along the way. |
Wow - what a post by Catallus. I wish people like him were speaking on TV about thisrather than the usual vacuous, self-serving vvankers. |  | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:00 - Sep 9 with 1140 views | WarwickHunt |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 09:17 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
I mostly agree but.....if Parliament revokes A50 or by other means forces a remain outcome, are Parliament not acting against the will of the people and wouldn't that be illegal or at least immoral and to many people an act of treason? |
Neither illegal nor immoral.
As for treason, you've got it arse about tit... |  | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:26 - Sep 9 with 1109 views | Catullus |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:00 - Sep 9 by WarwickHunt |
Neither illegal nor immoral.
As for treason, you've got it arse about tit... |
Really Warwick? Parliament enacted the referendum, told us it would be a once in a lifetime vote and they would honour the result. If they overturn brexit they are acting against the will of the majority (who voted) therefore breaking their promose and acting against the will of the people.
For the Parliament of the day to act against the government of the day, against the will of the people and be collaborating with a foreign political orgnisation to do so, is that not immoral and treasonous?
There are elected representatives who openly state they will do everything they can to prevent brexit, by whatever means. Jo Swinson amongst them. When Mugabe held votes but ignored the ourcome or did the opposite he was called a dictator.
Now because the losers in the referendum agree with what the politicians are doing they call it defending democracy. If this is how politicians behave, what is the point in having elections? Then, thinking ahead, what when the politicians are going against a democratic vote that you, Warwick, agreed with and had voted for, will you then think it's ok? | |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:31 - Sep 9 with 1099 views | jackrmee |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:26 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
Really Warwick? Parliament enacted the referendum, told us it would be a once in a lifetime vote and they would honour the result. If they overturn brexit they are acting against the will of the majority (who voted) therefore breaking their promose and acting against the will of the people.
For the Parliament of the day to act against the government of the day, against the will of the people and be collaborating with a foreign political orgnisation to do so, is that not immoral and treasonous?
There are elected representatives who openly state they will do everything they can to prevent brexit, by whatever means. Jo Swinson amongst them. When Mugabe held votes but ignored the ourcome or did the opposite he was called a dictator.
Now because the losers in the referendum agree with what the politicians are doing they call it defending democracy. If this is how politicians behave, what is the point in having elections? Then, thinking ahead, what when the politicians are going against a democratic vote that you, Warwick, agreed with and had voted for, will you then think it's ok? |
But what about the people who've changed their minds due to being lied to first time round about brexit? |  |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:36 - Sep 9 with 1098 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 22:09 - Sep 8 by Catullus |
The state pension, really? How it is funded is irrelevant. You have to pay into the system to be entitled to it. That you are paying for the already retired to have their pensions doesn't matter, if you don't pay in, you don't get it, simple.
Right, SherpaJacob, you claim that Wales could be self sufficient for water, electricity and food. So tell me, how much would we need to spend on infrastructure to gain self sufficiency? Who would lend us the money? Bearing in mind we'd start from a position of roughly 100 billion in debt the first year and tax receipts that don't cover much more than the NHS, schools and policing.
Wales could be indepedent one day but that day is a long way off and first we need to get Westminster to stump up money to invest in our infrastructure and economy. Scotland gets a far better settlement than us, we need better political representatives so we can can at least try and squeeze more money out of Westminster.
Whatever happens, the Senedd needs to spend money elsewhere besides the SE corner.
Question Sherpajacob, how much food do we grow in Wales? How much actual crop growing land is there? I'll save you the bother, mostly. We only grow around 20% of the food we eat in Wales because most farmland is not suitable for growing crops, it is mostly used as grazing land. Dairy farming is in hard times with milk production barely covering it's own costs. We have approx 86000 acres of horticultural land. That is roughly half compared to the 60's possibly partly because of the population increase and new houses being built on former farmland.
The last few pages of this thread are really depressing and demonstrate amply why this country is screwed for decades to come. Whatever happens with brexit, many people are long past proper debate. They want to argue, ridicule, dismiss and insult those they disagree with.
Take the points about people of a certain age.....those people mostly have kids. They didn't vote for brexit to ruin their own kids futures. Most certainly they want better for their kids than they had. Are they economically inactive? It depends on which perspective you take but older people spend their money and this year it has been found that the "Bank of Mum and Dad" equates to being the 10th largest mortgage provider in the UK, helping their kids get on the property ladder, very selfish that is eh!
They have also usually paid into the system which is more than unemployed school leavers have done, more than people who earn less than the tax allowance do since the inception of working tax credits, child allowance etc. The economically inactive are not just the elderly and it's not just the elderly who are net recipients.
Someone please tell me what our options are now? None of the remainers want to admit it but we have been manouvered into a remain position by politicians who have worked with the EU. It was all over the media that MP's checked with the EU before passing the law stopping no deal. Why have our politicians turned down every single option that allows us to leave if they are not working towards remain? They won't have another referendum because apart from it not solving anything unless we vote very strongly to remain, what if we actually voted even more strongly to leave, they don't trust the electorate to vote the way they want.
Yes Boris has taken a kicking inside Westminster yet outside that place his popularity has grown whilst Corbyn's has shrunk. Is that because to most people, no matter how they voted, brexit must be sorted and finished with, we cannot keep this nonsense going indefinitely, how harmful would that be?
There are rabid brexiteers and there are rabid remainers, neither will accept they can possibly be wrong, both tell lies and make predictions for the a future they cannot possibly know.
Worst of these (to me at least) are the WelshNats who insist leaving the EU will be disastrous but leaving the UK will make us better off. The EU gives us a net 250 million approx, Westminster gives us a net 8 BILLION approx. These Nats are both rabid leaver AND remainers who often display extreme hostility towards England, the English and the "English Government"
Brexit needs to be finished with one way or the other and soon. We need to stop arguing, stop throwing insults and find common ground, move ahead.
Whatever happens, anyone who claims to know what the future will bring (if we leave or remain) is every bit as much of a liar as Boris Johnson.
When I voted leave it was in the hope of a better future. Just like in a General Election, I made a choice and hoped for the best, what the future will bring for myself and my son, I will have to wait and see. |
You say:
“Whatever happens, anyone who claims to know what the future will bring (if we leave or remain) is every bit as much of a liar as Boris Johnson. ”
That’s simply not true. You’re right to say that no one can categorically and exactly predict the future ever, about anything, but that wouldn’t stop you from saying if you threw yourself from a plane without a parachute it would be remarkably stupid. The same applies with Brexit.
If you threw yourself from a plane, no one would know exactly which bones you’d break, which part of your body would be crumpled to a heap. You wouldn’t know which way the wind would blow, whether you’d be blown into a tree, smash into the ground, There have probably been people who have fallen from a plane without a working parachute and survived. But you wouldn’t do it because death, in some way or another, would be by far the most likely option. That’s a prediction of the future.
With Brexit, they can’t say whether one part of the economy would fall by 10% or 5% or another by 8% or 4%. They can’t say what else would happen anywhere in the world to affect it. But they can say that an economic shock is by far the most likely option. Every single government and independent report says so.
I’m not sure why experts telling you to refrain from falling from 35,000 feet can be trusted, yet other experts telling you to refrain from cutting yourself off from your biggest trading market cannot? | | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:40 - Sep 9 with 1092 views | barry_island |
I’m yet to hear a single argument in favour of Brexit that makes any sense to working people in the UK. Perhaps politicians realise that Cameron’s useless attempt to sort out the right wing of the Tory Party is not in the interests of our country. I hope so. | |
| Swansea City, THE Austerity Club. |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:43 - Sep 9 with 1089 views | WarwickHunt |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:26 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
Really Warwick? Parliament enacted the referendum, told us it would be a once in a lifetime vote and they would honour the result. If they overturn brexit they are acting against the will of the majority (who voted) therefore breaking their promose and acting against the will of the people.
For the Parliament of the day to act against the government of the day, against the will of the people and be collaborating with a foreign political orgnisation to do so, is that not immoral and treasonous?
There are elected representatives who openly state they will do everything they can to prevent brexit, by whatever means. Jo Swinson amongst them. When Mugabe held votes but ignored the ourcome or did the opposite he was called a dictator.
Now because the losers in the referendum agree with what the politicians are doing they call it defending democracy. If this is how politicians behave, what is the point in having elections? Then, thinking ahead, what when the politicians are going against a democratic vote that you, Warwick, agreed with and had voted for, will you then think it's ok? |
As long as the vote was advisory and Parliament remained sovereign, yes.
'For the Parliament of the day to act against the government of the day..." - you farkin' what? | | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:49 - Sep 9 with 1073 views | Catullus |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:43 - Sep 9 by WarwickHunt |
As long as the vote was advisory and Parliament remained sovereign, yes.
'For the Parliament of the day to act against the government of the day..." - you farkin' what? |
Parliament backed the referendum, said they'd honour the result but then did everything it could to stop brexit going against the will of the people.
wwe're not talking about the usual political nonsense here, Parliament is acting against the will of the majority.
PS, jackrmee, the only way to know how many (from either side) have changed their minds is to have another vote. | |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:00 - Sep 9 with 1055 views | Catullus |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:36 - Sep 9 by londonlisa2001 |
You say:
“Whatever happens, anyone who claims to know what the future will bring (if we leave or remain) is every bit as much of a liar as Boris Johnson. ”
That’s simply not true. You’re right to say that no one can categorically and exactly predict the future ever, about anything, but that wouldn’t stop you from saying if you threw yourself from a plane without a parachute it would be remarkably stupid. The same applies with Brexit.
If you threw yourself from a plane, no one would know exactly which bones you’d break, which part of your body would be crumpled to a heap. You wouldn’t know which way the wind would blow, whether you’d be blown into a tree, smash into the ground, There have probably been people who have fallen from a plane without a working parachute and survived. But you wouldn’t do it because death, in some way or another, would be by far the most likely option. That’s a prediction of the future.
With Brexit, they can’t say whether one part of the economy would fall by 10% or 5% or another by 8% or 4%. They can’t say what else would happen anywhere in the world to affect it. But they can say that an economic shock is by far the most likely option. Every single government and independent report says so.
I’m not sure why experts telling you to refrain from falling from 35,000 feet can be trusted, yet other experts telling you to refrain from cutting yourself off from your biggest trading market cannot? |
OK, so you think that knowing a 35000 ft drop is almost certainly 100% suicide is the same as predicting the future of brexit, whether leaving or remaining? Throwing yourself out of a plane at 35000 feet gives less than 2minutes of future, with brexit we are talking decades, can you tell me what the world will be like in 10 years whether leave or remain?
Now the EU is is biggest trading partner at 46% but we still do 54% trade with the rest of the world and who wants to cut ourselves off from trading with the EU? No one with any sense. I'm not backing a no deal exit as the only option and even if we did, we could still trade with the EU. Making out that brexit means never trading with the EU again is disingenuous at best. | |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:03 - Sep 9 with 1054 views | monmouth |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:49 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
Parliament backed the referendum, said they'd honour the result but then did everything it could to stop brexit going against the will of the people.
wwe're not talking about the usual political nonsense here, Parliament is acting against the will of the majority.
PS, jackrmee, the only way to know how many (from either side) have changed their minds is to have another vote. |
Hooray the penny's dropped. Well lets get on with having another vote then, and not a GE proxy neither, but a vote about the specific deals on offer. WA, Suicide, or Remain. |  |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:05 - Sep 9 with 1051 views | barry_island |
There again perhaps the Brexit Party has a magic wand and they will b able to sort everything out. One of the tricks they seem to have managed so far allegedly is make Dysons factory on Swindon disappear. | |
| Swansea City, THE Austerity Club. |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:12 - Sep 9 with 1044 views | Catullus |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:03 - Sep 9 by monmouth |
Hooray the penny's dropped. Well lets get on with having another vote then, and not a GE proxy neither, but a vote about the specific deals on offer. WA, Suicide, or Remain. |
That particular penny, Monmouth, dropped a long while back but (again as I've said elsewhere) neither side really wants another referendum, just in case we don't vote the way they want us to. They made noises about a peoples vote and when they took control of Parliament, could they have forced another referendum? They certainly stopped a GE despite Corbyn's practically non stop calls for one.
Whichever side you are on, none of us outside Westminster really has clue what's happening or will happen but I'm fairly confident nothing is as it seems and there's a lot more to all this. I could go off on a conspiracy rant, Bilderbergs etc but, no. | |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:16 - Sep 9 with 1037 views | jackrmee |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:49 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
Parliament backed the referendum, said they'd honour the result but then did everything it could to stop brexit going against the will of the people.
wwe're not talking about the usual political nonsense here, Parliament is acting against the will of the majority.
PS, jackrmee, the only way to know how many (from either side) have changed their minds is to have another vote. |
Exactly, but everyone is saying that having another vote is scandalous and not democracy. Surely another vote is the ONLY fair way. | |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:28 - Sep 9 with 1024 views | Catullus |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:16 - Sep 9 by jackrmee |
Exactly, but everyone is saying that having another vote is scandalous and not democracy. Surely another vote is the ONLY fair way. |
The problem with another vote is, what if the result is equally as close? will the losing side accept it this time?
Then, what questions are we asked? It certainly has to be a much more intelligent question than just leave or remain.
Cameron farked this right up! | |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:55 - Sep 9 with 1002 views | WarwickHunt |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:49 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
Parliament backed the referendum, said they'd honour the result but then did everything it could to stop brexit going against the will of the people.
wwe're not talking about the usual political nonsense here, Parliament is acting against the will of the majority.
PS, jackrmee, the only way to know how many (from either side) have changed their minds is to have another vote. |
Do you agree that General Elections should be held regularly or is democracy a static concept for you?
I think you’ll find that the previous majority is now a minority as people realise they were sold a pup. With distemper. | | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:09 - Sep 9 with 984 views | Groo |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 12:36 - Sep 9 by londonlisa2001 |
You say:
“Whatever happens, anyone who claims to know what the future will bring (if we leave or remain) is every bit as much of a liar as Boris Johnson. ”
That’s simply not true. You’re right to say that no one can categorically and exactly predict the future ever, about anything, but that wouldn’t stop you from saying if you threw yourself from a plane without a parachute it would be remarkably stupid. The same applies with Brexit.
If you threw yourself from a plane, no one would know exactly which bones you’d break, which part of your body would be crumpled to a heap. You wouldn’t know which way the wind would blow, whether you’d be blown into a tree, smash into the ground, There have probably been people who have fallen from a plane without a working parachute and survived. But you wouldn’t do it because death, in some way or another, would be by far the most likely option. That’s a prediction of the future.
With Brexit, they can’t say whether one part of the economy would fall by 10% or 5% or another by 8% or 4%. They can’t say what else would happen anywhere in the world to affect it. But they can say that an economic shock is by far the most likely option. Every single government and independent report says so.
I’m not sure why experts telling you to refrain from falling from 35,000 feet can be trusted, yet other experts telling you to refrain from cutting yourself off from your biggest trading market cannot? |
Jesus Christ, I've read everything now. Jumping from a plane is a comparison to Brexit.
Project fear eh! in full swing.
Do all those independent Countries know they're falling? |  |
| Groo does what Groo does best |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:11 - Sep 9 with 978 views | Jango |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:16 - Sep 9 by jackrmee |
Exactly, but everyone is saying that having another vote is scandalous and not democracy. Surely another vote is the ONLY fair way. |
There’s no point in another referendum with the current parliament. If leave win again then they’d block us leaving again. They’ve already said so. Let’s have a general election, if leave parties win a majority we’ll be able to leave. If remain parties get the majority then they’ll be able to stop brexit. Referendums have been shown to be pointless because the majority in parliament will just do what they want anyway. | | | |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:13 - Sep 9 with 974 views | waynekerr55 |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:09 - Sep 9 by Groo |
Jesus Christ, I've read everything now. Jumping from a plane is a comparison to Brexit.
Project fear eh! in full swing.
Do all those independent Countries know they're falling? |
It's not a like for like comparison though, it's a metaphor to illustrate what it's like.
It's not project fear, it's project truth. The economy will shrink, there will be border checks and there will be disruption. How much, we don't know. |  |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:19 - Sep 9 with 966 views | Highjack |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 13:28 - Sep 9 by Catullus |
The problem with another vote is, what if the result is equally as close? will the losing side accept it this time?
Then, what questions are we asked? It certainly has to be a much more intelligent question than just leave or remain.
Cameron farked this right up! |
The problem with another vote is we go into it knowing for a fact that only one of the two options on the ballot paper will be honoured. It’s a scam. |  |
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| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:20 - Sep 9 with 965 views | WarwickHunt |
| Does Brexit die tonight? on 14:13 - Sep 9 by waynekerr55 |
It's not a like for like comparison though, it's a metaphor to illustrate what it's like.
It's not project fear, it's project truth. The economy will shrink, there will be border checks and there will be disruption. How much, we don't know. |
Groo probably thinks a metaphor is an extinct creature. | | | |
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