| Independence march merthyr 08:15 - Sep 8 with 27795 views | CwmafanJack |
Did anyone make the trip? Great speakers eddie butler and neville southall. Thousands in attendance with thousands more not being able to make it as trains where full coming from cardiff. Also busts the myth that theres no support for independence in the south. Well done all. Annibyniaeth ðŸ´ó §ó ¢ó ·ó ¬ó ³ó ¿ |  |
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| Independence march merthyr on 17:58 - Sep 14 with 1505 views | johnlangy |
| Independence march merthyr on 11:19 - Sep 14 by jacks777 |
This is about Welsh independence and the fact that Wales would have to take responsibility for some of the U.K. debt would in effect bankrupt Wales for the start. |
Wales would have to take their share of the debt I agree.
But why would that bankrupt the country ? | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 18:11 - Sep 14 with 1488 views | perchrockjack |
Income v Expenditure.
Water is no longer turned into wine | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 19:28 - Sep 14 with 1474 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:58 - Sep 14 by johnlangy |
Wales would have to take their share of the debt I agree.
But why would that bankrupt the country ? |
We would do a deal John.
Its the easiest deal in history.
Sunlight uplands on acid.
And if they dont give us a good deal we will withhold or the monies due.
We must be prepared to walk away without a deal.
The rUK would probably agree last minute.
Total bollox innit 😂 |  |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Independence march merthyr on 09:56 - Sep 15 with 1403 views | johnlangy |
| Independence march merthyr on 18:11 - Sep 14 by perchrockjack |
Income v Expenditure.
Water is no longer turned into wine |
Is that an answer to my 'why would that bankrupt the country' question perchy ? | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 09:59 - Sep 15 with 1394 views | perchrockjack |
No.
Take me through the day.
Its Jan1st 2025. Wales is now independent of England and has Leanne Wood as President.
Set out for me the scenario. Imagine you are Wynford Vaughan Thomas and his melliflous tones | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 10:05 - Sep 15 with 1392 views | perchrockjack |
As we get our water from Wales,we are cutting down and got ourselves a water meter and halved our bills so less for nasty United Utilitities.
If everyone did that, less revenue for Wales ,innit.
No doubt ,knowing the supply system, we will get our water from Cumbria . Plenty there | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 10:07 - Sep 15 with 1393 views | Catullus |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:58 - Sep 14 by johnlangy |
Wales would have to take their share of the debt I agree.
But why would that bankrupt the country ? |
The maths are very hard because we don't know the full facts but, assuming what is public is accurate, Wales is heavily subsidised by England. England, if it wasn't paying out well over 35 billion a year to the devolved governments could use that money to pay off it's debt, a debt that would be lowered by around 200 billion.
England would be much better off on its own, financially. Wales however, we need massive infrastructure spending, we'd need massive borrowing to do that and who will lend us that money when we are already 85 billion or so in debt and with a massive deficit.
The sticking point is EU membership, I keep saying this but to be given membership we'd need to meet the Copenhagen criteria and it might take us years to do that. So we are indepedent, we are outside the EU so a third country. We have to negotiate trade deals, we have to borrow to plan and start infrastructure rebuilding. We have to show the EU we are a stable democracy (politically AND financially) and to be honest, I simply do not trust that Welsh politicians are capable.
If brexit is such a bad thing, why is becoming indepedent and being outside the EU for an unknown length of time a good thing? Unless the EU explicitly says we are guaranteed immediate membership if we go indy, that doesn't change.
PS Ebo, technically we do pay our share of the deficit/debt but if we went indy we would have to actually find the money and pay it whereas right now, Westminster does that. On top of which we'd need all the extra borrowing......as I posted above.
OK, cards on the table (as if anyone doesn't already know) I'm not the brightest spark, I don't have all the answers etc but when asked these questions people cannot give proper answers, all we get is generalised answers and an insistence we will be allowed into the EU. I think we need a lot more information and if we are asked the question, it needs to be a much more intelligent and thought through question than simply leave or remain!
One last thing though, if we were to go indy, how many people think Drakeford would be a good choice to lead us into a brave new world? Not I. | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 10:38 - Sep 15 with 1382 views | Catullus |
| Independence march merthyr on 20:59 - Sep 13 by perchrockjack |
With respect, NI will surely never join the republic given the current and historical religious make up.
Finest example of this is catholics supporting Celtic and protestants Ranger-albeit ,in feck Scotland.
No way will protestants be part of a republic where they are in a minority and not part of British Monarchy. |
From what I've seen on the news, even pro unionists don't want a hard border or the disruption that brexit will obviously bring, even if it was a very short period and low level disruption.
On that basis, in the North at least there could be more support for a united Ireland than we realise. I've also read though that many Southern Irish don't want the reunification because of all the extra costs, the Republic would have to take on welfare payments, health provision, policing etc and allegedly, many see the current situation as a problem for them because the new IRA are causing trouble and a unity vote may rewaken the unionist terrorists too.
It's not a simple situation. | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 13:30 - Sep 15 with 1356 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 10:07 - Sep 15 by Catullus |
The maths are very hard because we don't know the full facts but, assuming what is public is accurate, Wales is heavily subsidised by England. England, if it wasn't paying out well over 35 billion a year to the devolved governments could use that money to pay off it's debt, a debt that would be lowered by around 200 billion.
England would be much better off on its own, financially. Wales however, we need massive infrastructure spending, we'd need massive borrowing to do that and who will lend us that money when we are already 85 billion or so in debt and with a massive deficit.
The sticking point is EU membership, I keep saying this but to be given membership we'd need to meet the Copenhagen criteria and it might take us years to do that. So we are indepedent, we are outside the EU so a third country. We have to negotiate trade deals, we have to borrow to plan and start infrastructure rebuilding. We have to show the EU we are a stable democracy (politically AND financially) and to be honest, I simply do not trust that Welsh politicians are capable.
If brexit is such a bad thing, why is becoming indepedent and being outside the EU for an unknown length of time a good thing? Unless the EU explicitly says we are guaranteed immediate membership if we go indy, that doesn't change.
PS Ebo, technically we do pay our share of the deficit/debt but if we went indy we would have to actually find the money and pay it whereas right now, Westminster does that. On top of which we'd need all the extra borrowing......as I posted above.
OK, cards on the table (as if anyone doesn't already know) I'm not the brightest spark, I don't have all the answers etc but when asked these questions people cannot give proper answers, all we get is generalised answers and an insistence we will be allowed into the EU. I think we need a lot more information and if we are asked the question, it needs to be a much more intelligent and thought through question than simply leave or remain!
One last thing though, if we were to go indy, how many people think Drakeford would be a good choice to lead us into a brave new world? Not I. |
Have a read through. | |
| Beware of the Risen People
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| Independence march merthyr on 13:32 - Sep 15 with 1353 views | Kilkennyjack |
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| Beware of the Risen People
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| Independence march merthyr on 14:16 - Sep 15 with 1336 views | A_Fans_Dad |
| Independence march merthyr on 18:46 - Sep 13 by Kilkennyjack |
Banning democracy is an English Tory Westminster thing.
Indy Wales will be a modern progressive inclusive democracy like all the others in western europe.
The last Welsh Assembly poll had Plaid top, not Labour.
So not the small party you seem to think.
You know, like its now the biggest party in wales.
Here are the findings for the constituency ballot (with changes from the May Barometer poll once again in brackets):
Plaid Cymru: 24% (no change)
Labour: 21% (-4)
Conservatives: 19% (+2)
Brexit Party: 19% (+2)
Liberal Democrats: 12% (+3)
Greens: 4% (-1)
Others: 2% (-1)
These are again figures of historic proportions. This is the first Welsh poll ever to show Plaid Cymru in the lead for the Assembly constituency vote, while Labour support is again at an unprecedented low
Plaid got more votes than labour in wales in the latest European elections as well. |
Am I missing something here?
Doesn't a ruling Party have to have a Majority over all the other Parties combined?
I would love to see the result for that Independence poll taken in Cardiff. | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 14:57 - Sep 15 with 1314 views | Highjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 14:16 - Sep 15 by A_Fans_Dad |
Am I missing something here?
Doesn't a ruling Party have to have a Majority over all the other Parties combined?
I would love to see the result for that Independence poll taken in Cardiff. |
It needs a majority of seats, not votes.
Can’t see plaid winning many seats in the traditional labour areas. They’ll do well out in the sticks no doubt. |  |
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| Independence march merthyr on 15:21 - Sep 15 with 1299 views | DJack |
| Independence march merthyr on 18:11 - Sep 14 by perchrockjack |
Income v Expenditure.
Water is no longer turned into wine |
I'm great at turning wine into water. |  |
| It is far better to grasp the universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan |
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| Independence march merthyr on 16:34 - Sep 15 with 1280 views | blaenaugwentjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 10:07 - Sep 15 by Catullus |
The maths are very hard because we don't know the full facts but, assuming what is public is accurate, Wales is heavily subsidised by England. England, if it wasn't paying out well over 35 billion a year to the devolved governments could use that money to pay off it's debt, a debt that would be lowered by around 200 billion.
England would be much better off on its own, financially. Wales however, we need massive infrastructure spending, we'd need massive borrowing to do that and who will lend us that money when we are already 85 billion or so in debt and with a massive deficit.
The sticking point is EU membership, I keep saying this but to be given membership we'd need to meet the Copenhagen criteria and it might take us years to do that. So we are indepedent, we are outside the EU so a third country. We have to negotiate trade deals, we have to borrow to plan and start infrastructure rebuilding. We have to show the EU we are a stable democracy (politically AND financially) and to be honest, I simply do not trust that Welsh politicians are capable.
If brexit is such a bad thing, why is becoming indepedent and being outside the EU for an unknown length of time a good thing? Unless the EU explicitly says we are guaranteed immediate membership if we go indy, that doesn't change.
PS Ebo, technically we do pay our share of the deficit/debt but if we went indy we would have to actually find the money and pay it whereas right now, Westminster does that. On top of which we'd need all the extra borrowing......as I posted above.
OK, cards on the table (as if anyone doesn't already know) I'm not the brightest spark, I don't have all the answers etc but when asked these questions people cannot give proper answers, all we get is generalised answers and an insistence we will be allowed into the EU. I think we need a lot more information and if we are asked the question, it needs to be a much more intelligent and thought through question than simply leave or remain!
One last thing though, if we were to go indy, how many people think Drakeford would be a good choice to lead us into a brave new world? Not I. |
So when Britain leaves the E U, Britain will have to pay off a share of the E U debt? | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:03 - Sep 15 with 1270 views | blaenaugwentjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 05:39 - Sep 14 by jacks777 |
No we don’t you thick tw@t.
Wales already spends more than what it collects in taxation.
If wales had to pay just 5 % of the £1.7 trillion U.K. debt that would equate to Wales having to pay £85 billion a sum Wales could never repay.....we’d be even more of a basket case than we are now. [Post edited 14 Sep 2019 5:43]
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Wales spends more than it collects in taxation? Mmmm, TATA Steel and Airbus are big taxation payers in wales, but they are not registered in Wales for taxation collection. And that,s just two companies off the top of my head. | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:06 - Sep 15 with 1265 views | blaenaugwentjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 10:05 - Sep 15 by perchrockjack |
As we get our water from Wales,we are cutting down and got ourselves a water meter and halved our bills so less for nasty United Utilitities.
If everyone did that, less revenue for Wales ,innit.
No doubt ,knowing the supply system, we will get our water from Cumbria . Plenty there |
Wales does not charge a profit for its water exported to England, therein is the problem. | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:21 - Sep 15 with 1246 views | johnlangy |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:03 - Sep 15 by blaenaugwentjack |
Wales spends more than it collects in taxation? Mmmm, TATA Steel and Airbus are big taxation payers in wales, but they are not registered in Wales for taxation collection. And that,s just two companies off the top of my head. |
Add to them almost every other large company with a presence in Wales.
The huge majority of them have their HQ's in London or the South East and pay all their VAT and Corp Tax there. So all their Welsh VAT and Corp tax is registered as English tax because of where it's registered.
So that's many billions not included in the Welsh tax total which is so regularly quoted. | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:25 - Sep 15 with 1233 views | johnlangy |
| Independence march merthyr on 09:59 - Sep 15 by perchrockjack |
No.
Take me through the day.
Its Jan1st 2025. Wales is now independent of England and has Leanne Wood as President.
Set out for me the scenario. Imagine you are Wynford Vaughan Thomas and his melliflous tones |
Haven't got a clue. None of us can predict what's going to happen this week never mind in 5 years time. | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:29 - Sep 15 with 1216 views | perchrockjack |
Ah bugger it.
I thought you had it all planned out,costed to the last penny.
I read so much of how Wales will prosper on its own.
BTW, what justice system would it use;the English one ,Scottish or Irish .
We are looking at creating a whole new structure.
Do you not accept many -the majority-in Wales are completely against the idea. | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 17:53 - Sep 15 with 1199 views | johnlangy |
| Independence march merthyr on 10:07 - Sep 15 by Catullus |
The maths are very hard because we don't know the full facts but, assuming what is public is accurate, Wales is heavily subsidised by England. England, if it wasn't paying out well over 35 billion a year to the devolved governments could use that money to pay off it's debt, a debt that would be lowered by around 200 billion.
England would be much better off on its own, financially. Wales however, we need massive infrastructure spending, we'd need massive borrowing to do that and who will lend us that money when we are already 85 billion or so in debt and with a massive deficit.
The sticking point is EU membership, I keep saying this but to be given membership we'd need to meet the Copenhagen criteria and it might take us years to do that. So we are indepedent, we are outside the EU so a third country. We have to negotiate trade deals, we have to borrow to plan and start infrastructure rebuilding. We have to show the EU we are a stable democracy (politically AND financially) and to be honest, I simply do not trust that Welsh politicians are capable.
If brexit is such a bad thing, why is becoming indepedent and being outside the EU for an unknown length of time a good thing? Unless the EU explicitly says we are guaranteed immediate membership if we go indy, that doesn't change.
PS Ebo, technically we do pay our share of the deficit/debt but if we went indy we would have to actually find the money and pay it whereas right now, Westminster does that. On top of which we'd need all the extra borrowing......as I posted above.
OK, cards on the table (as if anyone doesn't already know) I'm not the brightest spark, I don't have all the answers etc but when asked these questions people cannot give proper answers, all we get is generalised answers and an insistence we will be allowed into the EU. I think we need a lot more information and if we are asked the question, it needs to be a much more intelligent and thought through question than simply leave or remain!
One last thing though, if we were to go indy, how many people think Drakeford would be a good choice to lead us into a brave new world? Not I. |
What is published is not the full picture as has been explained many times on this forum. The real Welsh deficit is much lower than they give us to believe.
You're correct in saying that Wales would need massive infrastructure spending. That's because there's been so little spend on Welsh infra by successive Westminster governments. And the simple truth is that that lack of spend while part of the UK would continue making it even more difficult for Wales to thrive. Billions of the 'Welsh Expenditure' which they regularly refer to is actually spent in England and that, if spent in Wales, would give the Welsh economy a massive boost. If Wales was independent that is what would happen.
As part of the UK we currently meet all the necessary EU criteria but I can't answer as to how much we may miss those criteria targets if we went Indy. Or how long it may take us to catch up.
I can't believe how many times I read Welsh people posting that we are less intelligent than English people. That's effectively what you're saying with 'I simply do not trust that Welsh politicians are capable'. Do you think that you are less intelligent than your average Englishman Catullus ? I know i'm not. But I AM certain that Welsh people are better able to run Wales.
That's because they are Welsh. | | | |
| Independence march merthyr on 21:50 - Sep 15 with 1140 views | Uxbridge |
Wales is self sufficient in power and water, and indeed is a significant exporter or both. We do also have significant natural benefits. Neither of these are factored into the net deficit calculations.
It's as daft to say Wales couldn't thrive in the future if run properly as is to say there wouldn't be considerable short term impact if independent.
The reality is very likely to mean we'd be choosing one union over another. If the choice is Wales within the EU vs. Wales and England standing alone in the world, both of those are a world away from the current situation as to render a comparison between them and the current situation utterly irrelevant. |  |
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| Independence march merthyr on 23:25 - Sep 15 with 1098 views | Kilkennyjack |
| Independence march merthyr on 17:29 - Sep 15 by perchrockjack |
Ah bugger it.
I thought you had it all planned out,costed to the last penny.
I read so much of how Wales will prosper on its own.
BTW, what justice system would it use;the English one ,Scottish or Irish .
We are looking at creating a whole new structure.
Do you not accept many -the majority-in Wales are completely against the idea. |
Nope.
The pro Indy people are winning the argument, so the picture changes.
Its not 1967 anymore. | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 01:42 - Sep 16 with 1059 views | Kerouac |
| Independence march merthyr on 16:34 - Sep 15 by blaenaugwentjack |
So when Britain leaves the E U, Britain will have to pay off a share of the E U debt? |
Amid stiff competition this post of 'blaenaugwentjack's is the most ignorant on the thread.
He doesn't even understand what the EU is, how it works...or for that matter the functions of a nation state.
Yet he wants to break up our stable, successful nation state and create an independent Wales, then beg to be allowed to join a political union where you get to be told what to do, how it is, without any of the positives that we currently get from our present political union.
...and it would appear that many of the Independent Wales movement can't figure out the differences either.
Dangerous people.
Apples must be compared with apples. |  |
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| Independence march merthyr on 08:44 - Sep 16 with 983 views | perchrockjack |
How does Wales "export" water to a fellow member of the UK.
What does Wales import. Much ,I would say.
I posted a question as to what we could expect the day Wales is an independent country;there s of course no answer ,as it is in the minds of those wishing to cede from the Union. | |
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| Independence march merthyr on 08:52 - Sep 16 with 974 views | Uxbridge |
| Independence march merthyr on 08:44 - Sep 16 by perchrockjack |
How does Wales "export" water to a fellow member of the UK.
What does Wales import. Much ,I would say.
I posted a question as to what we could expect the day Wales is an independent country;there s of course no answer ,as it is in the minds of those wishing to cede from the Union. |
Because the water is in reservoirs in Wales, but is pumped into England. Not relevant if "one" country I agree, but if not then it becomes relevant. Russia don't altruistically allow the gas pumped from its borders to flow freely to other countries does it? This is no different.
Short term? Major disruption. Couldn't be anything else. What you seem to be missing is that the debate is mainly about two scenarios which will already be massively disruptive anyway. It's increasingly likely the status quo is going to end in the next few years. | |
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