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Have the government failed? 08:00 - Apr 27 with 23966 viewsRiscaJack

Can the more educated posters on this forum give me some opinions on this?

For me it looks like a complete disgrace from the start, no leadership, promises not kept, flights still coming into country from badly hit parts of world, using the excuse of "scientific advice" for not postponing the likes of Cheltenham Festival, Liverpool v Madrid, music gigs. We watched what was happening in Italy, I just can't find any excuses for them.

JENKINS OUT

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Have the government failed? on 14:25 - May 7 with 496 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 14:18 - May 7 by Highjack

Are there any figures or data regarding the number of cases amongst supermarket staff compared to the rest of the population? You’d think they’d be dropping like flies.


Initially, there were figures out saying that the virus could remain on surfaces for a certain period of time, but they were done under lab conditions.The same for spores, if they are coughed or sneezed out and being carried in water droplets, surely they would drop to the floor, as water is heavier than air
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Have the government failed? on 14:26 - May 7 with 496 viewsHighjack

Have the government failed? on 14:24 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

They introduced gloves, social distancing and Screens.


Yes but if the virus is lingering in the air then no amount of distancing, little rubber gloves or plastic screens is going to protect any bugger.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Have the government failed? on 14:30 - May 7 with 486 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 14:26 - May 7 by Highjack

Yes but if the virus is lingering in the air then no amount of distancing, little rubber gloves or plastic screens is going to protect any bugger.


We don't know if it is.I suspect it is , as it's far too contagious to be spread by simply coughing or sneezing directly onto someone.How often does that happen?
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Have the government failed? on 14:32 - May 7 with 481 viewsHighjack

Have the government failed? on 14:25 - May 7 by controversial_jack

Initially, there were figures out saying that the virus could remain on surfaces for a certain period of time, but they were done under lab conditions.The same for spores, if they are coughed or sneezed out and being carried in water droplets, surely they would drop to the floor, as water is heavier than air


Most of a sneeze would be vapour though wouldn’t it? Same as when you breathe out you exhale water vapour.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Have the government failed? on 14:47 - May 7 with 456 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 13:37 - May 7 by waynekerr55

If I had one question that could be asked of Corbyn and Swinson, it would be

"What made you believe you would have won?"

And before we get ourselves into a lather, this mess has shown us that all of our politicians need to grow the fùck up and work collaboratively in the interests of the country.


Work collaboratively? That'd be....great!

Maybe we need a massive change to our democracy. After all a 5 year cycle gives a government enough time to mess things up and is short enough to claim they couldn't get stuff finished...or even started. maybe we should vote them in for 12 years at a time but tell them any electoral promises not attempted/kept will result in an independent inquiry and if necessary, criminal charges. Negligence, fraud, make it misconduct in public office? yeah I know

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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Have the government failed? on 14:51 - May 7 with 451 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 14:18 - May 7 by Highjack

Are there any figures or data regarding the number of cases amongst supermarket staff compared to the rest of the population? You’d think they’d be dropping like flies.


Yes, I agree.

I think that if it was the case that particles sufficient to infect could remain airborne for any length of time at all, the rate of infection would be far higher (as it is in the case of measles for exactly that reason) as you’d have people walking through clouds of infection every time they went to the shops.
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Have the government failed? on 14:53 - May 7 with 447 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 14:22 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

Did you bother to read the article DJack posted?
It was about virii being suspended in air and it is especially indoors.


Yes. The numbers don’t appear to support the hypothesis unless an enormous number of us have been infected without knowing.
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Have the government failed? on 15:15 - May 7 with 436 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 14:53 - May 7 by londonlisa2001

Yes. The numbers don’t appear to support the hypothesis unless an enormous number of us have been infected without knowing.


You do not then consider it a possible cause of some of the 5000 new cases every day during lockdown?
OK.
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Have the government failed? on 15:20 - May 7 with 428 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 14:32 - May 7 by Highjack

Most of a sneeze would be vapour though wouldn’t it? Same as when you breathe out you exhale water vapour.


Yes, indeed. We would need to know how long the atomised water would take to settle through gravity.I would have thought it would be a fairly short time.I can't see it hanging around suspended in the air for hours. I'm inclined to think it could be passed person to person just by breathing.
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Have the government failed? on 15:24 - May 7 with 422 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 15:20 - May 7 by controversial_jack

Yes, indeed. We would need to know how long the atomised water would take to settle through gravity.I would have thought it would be a fairly short time.I can't see it hanging around suspended in the air for hours. I'm inclined to think it could be passed person to person just by breathing.


Yes it is in water droplets but they say that in dry air rooms the small droplets get moved around long enough to dry and leave just the virii.
Outdoors they can get blown, if you are lucky away from you, but if not straight at you.
Air circulation would play a large part in what happens.
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Have the government failed? on 15:35 - May 7 with 415 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 15:24 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

Yes it is in water droplets but they say that in dry air rooms the small droplets get moved around long enough to dry and leave just the virii.
Outdoors they can get blown, if you are lucky away from you, but if not straight at you.
Air circulation would play a large part in what happens.


There are so many anomalies. Does the virus remain suspended in the air? How many people actually openly sneeze or cough, in a supermarket etc - I don't think it happens often.

I was told by a dutch person who understands Flemish, that a Belgian virologist said the tests were done under lab conditions. He went out and actually tested supermarkets and concluded that the virus doesn't live for very long and the chances of picking it up from the goods or trolley etc are very slim
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Have the government failed? on 15:53 - May 7 with 403 viewsHighjack

Have the government failed? on 15:35 - May 7 by controversial_jack

There are so many anomalies. Does the virus remain suspended in the air? How many people actually openly sneeze or cough, in a supermarket etc - I don't think it happens often.

I was told by a dutch person who understands Flemish, that a Belgian virologist said the tests were done under lab conditions. He went out and actually tested supermarkets and concluded that the virus doesn't live for very long and the chances of picking it up from the goods or trolley etc are very slim


Yeah a lot of viruses are fairly impotent out of the body and die fairly quick. They can survive a bit longer on certain surfaces. So unless you’re touching the trolley then directly putting your hand in your mouth or up your nose it’s fairly unlikely you’d get it.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Have the government failed? on 15:59 - May 7 with 398 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 15:15 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

You do not then consider it a possible cause of some of the 5000 new cases every day during lockdown?
OK.


I didn’t say that though did I.

But no, I don’t think the numbers are high enough to suggest that people are catching it through lingering virus clouds in the supermarket air. As highjack pointed out there hasn’t been a huge number of supermarket workers reported as infected in this way.
I also don’t think any of the official advice anywhere supports the theory. Given they’re still concentrating on distance between people and length of time spent with those infected. That’s how all the apps that have been introduced across the world work. Including the countries that you keep saying are spot on.

There are all sorts of lab tests that show that the virus can last on glass, plastic, boxes, etc etc. We’ve all been wiping deliveries I’m sure.

There have, apparently, been NO confirmed cases of the virus being caught from deliveries in that way. Not one.

Theory and practice are different.

The infection rate in diseases which are truly airborne are many multiples of this one. The ‘natural’ R0 (Before lockdown measures) is apparently c. 2.5-3. Measles is 12-18.
[Post edited 7 May 16:01]
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Have the government failed? on 16:06 - May 7 with 380 viewswaynekerr55



Let me guess, this is because of "Europhile" Civil Servants...
[Post edited 7 May 16:06]

How many of you know what DP stands for?
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Have the government failed? on 16:10 - May 7 with 376 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 15:59 - May 7 by londonlisa2001

I didn’t say that though did I.

But no, I don’t think the numbers are high enough to suggest that people are catching it through lingering virus clouds in the supermarket air. As highjack pointed out there hasn’t been a huge number of supermarket workers reported as infected in this way.
I also don’t think any of the official advice anywhere supports the theory. Given they’re still concentrating on distance between people and length of time spent with those infected. That’s how all the apps that have been introduced across the world work. Including the countries that you keep saying are spot on.

There are all sorts of lab tests that show that the virus can last on glass, plastic, boxes, etc etc. We’ve all been wiping deliveries I’m sure.

There have, apparently, been NO confirmed cases of the virus being caught from deliveries in that way. Not one.

Theory and practice are different.

The infection rate in diseases which are truly airborne are many multiples of this one. The ‘natural’ R0 (Before lockdown measures) is apparently c. 2.5-3. Measles is 12-18.
[Post edited 7 May 16:01]


So that makes a good argument for grounding flights and checking all passengers (quarantine and test) because on aircraft the air is constantly recirculated. Whereas in a supermarket your chances of catching it, if one other customer is infected, are slim. On a flight though, does it mean one infected passenger could infect everybody, in theory?

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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Have the government failed? on 16:14 - May 7 with 371 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 15:59 - May 7 by londonlisa2001

I didn’t say that though did I.

But no, I don’t think the numbers are high enough to suggest that people are catching it through lingering virus clouds in the supermarket air. As highjack pointed out there hasn’t been a huge number of supermarket workers reported as infected in this way.
I also don’t think any of the official advice anywhere supports the theory. Given they’re still concentrating on distance between people and length of time spent with those infected. That’s how all the apps that have been introduced across the world work. Including the countries that you keep saying are spot on.

There are all sorts of lab tests that show that the virus can last on glass, plastic, boxes, etc etc. We’ve all been wiping deliveries I’m sure.

There have, apparently, been NO confirmed cases of the virus being caught from deliveries in that way. Not one.

Theory and practice are different.

The infection rate in diseases which are truly airborne are many multiples of this one. The ‘natural’ R0 (Before lockdown measures) is apparently c. 2.5-3. Measles is 12-18.
[Post edited 7 May 16:01]


"I also don’t think any of the official advice anywhere supports the theory. "
Which was precisely why those Australian and Chinese Scientists wrote that paper.
"Therefore, we plead that the international and national authorities acknowledge the reality that the virus spreads through air, and recommend that adequate control measures, as discussed above be implemented to prevent further spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus."
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Have the government failed? on 16:16 - May 7 with 368 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 16:10 - May 7 by Catullus

So that makes a good argument for grounding flights and checking all passengers (quarantine and test) because on aircraft the air is constantly recirculated. Whereas in a supermarket your chances of catching it, if one other customer is infected, are slim. On a flight though, does it mean one infected passenger could infect everybody, in theory?


My understanding, but only from what’s been reported before, is that the air cleaning filters in an aircraft air system are sufficiently small to filter out the virus particles. (In layman’s terms for which read what I understand by that, is that the virus size is too big to pass through the hole). So it doesn’t circulate in the way we’d expect.

Obviously if you’re sitting near someone so you’re breathing in ‘their air’, without that filter, that’s different and you’d stand the same chance of catching it as if you were sitting near someone infected who wasn’t on a plane. Also if you touch a contaminated surface soon after it’s been contaminated and then don’t wash your hands before touching your face.

I wouldn’t get on a plane at the moment though. You can’t keep enough distance between you.
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Have the government failed? on 16:17 - May 7 with 367 viewsHighjack

Have the government failed? on 16:10 - May 7 by Catullus

So that makes a good argument for grounding flights and checking all passengers (quarantine and test) because on aircraft the air is constantly recirculated. Whereas in a supermarket your chances of catching it, if one other customer is infected, are slim. On a flight though, does it mean one infected passenger could infect everybody, in theory?


With flights it’s not the recirculating air that’s the problem it’s the hundreds of people packed together like sardines.

The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
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Have the government failed? on 16:28 - May 7 with 354 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 16:14 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

"I also don’t think any of the official advice anywhere supports the theory. "
Which was precisely why those Australian and Chinese Scientists wrote that paper.
"Therefore, we plead that the international and national authorities acknowledge the reality that the virus spreads through air, and recommend that adequate control measures, as discussed above be implemented to prevent further spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus."


Yes, but that still isn’t saying what’s been discussed which is whether it can exist in sort of infection clouds in a supermarket. One doesn’t mean the other even if they are right which they may not be (I’m not saying they’re wrong that it doesn’t travel by air, but it may not be in sufficient quantities to actually infect anyone, irrespective of what happened with ferrets in a totally different virus which they quote as an example).
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Have the government failed? on 16:32 - May 7 with 347 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 16:16 - May 7 by londonlisa2001

My understanding, but only from what’s been reported before, is that the air cleaning filters in an aircraft air system are sufficiently small to filter out the virus particles. (In layman’s terms for which read what I understand by that, is that the virus size is too big to pass through the hole). So it doesn’t circulate in the way we’d expect.

Obviously if you’re sitting near someone so you’re breathing in ‘their air’, without that filter, that’s different and you’d stand the same chance of catching it as if you were sitting near someone infected who wasn’t on a plane. Also if you touch a contaminated surface soon after it’s been contaminated and then don’t wash your hands before touching your face.

I wouldn’t get on a plane at the moment though. You can’t keep enough distance between you.


We won't be getting on a plane for a while anyway, had no plans for travel until next summer at the earliest buuuut, it's not the air going through the filters that'd concern me, in the cabin, if air is being pumped around it must move around the cabin.
Then, as Hj says, the close proximity is the problem, if being close to an infected person for 15 minutes means you probably got infected yourself, then do the maths for a whole flight. A 4 hour flight, the people in the same row (and behind and in front) of you infected every 15 minutes, then someone goes to the toilet. The whole flight is definitely at risk, and we were letting flights land and people go home unchecked.

Another thing, this virus was probably here before we even knew it existed, Heathrow is the busiest travel hub in Europe and the UK is the most densely populated country in Europe. Does that explain why we have the most deaths? Though we don't have the most deaths per capita.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
Blog: In, Out, in, out........

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Have the government failed? on 16:36 - May 7 with 345 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 16:32 - May 7 by Catullus

We won't be getting on a plane for a while anyway, had no plans for travel until next summer at the earliest buuuut, it's not the air going through the filters that'd concern me, in the cabin, if air is being pumped around it must move around the cabin.
Then, as Hj says, the close proximity is the problem, if being close to an infected person for 15 minutes means you probably got infected yourself, then do the maths for a whole flight. A 4 hour flight, the people in the same row (and behind and in front) of you infected every 15 minutes, then someone goes to the toilet. The whole flight is definitely at risk, and we were letting flights land and people go home unchecked.

Another thing, this virus was probably here before we even knew it existed, Heathrow is the busiest travel hub in Europe and the UK is the most densely populated country in Europe. Does that explain why we have the most deaths? Though we don't have the most deaths per capita.


‘ if being close to an infected person for 15 minutes means you probably got infected yourself, then do the maths for a whole flight. A 4 hour flight, the people in the same row (and behind and in front) of you infected every 15 minutes, then someone goes to the toilet’

It doesn’t work like that mun. You don’t get infected then immediately pass it in to someone else and then they immediately pass it on and so on. There’s an incubation period.

But as I said, I wouldn’t fly because you can’t keep distant from someone and that someone you’re near could be the infected one.

I’ve no doubt Heathrow’s size and importance as a hub and the population density of the UK are both factors.
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Have the government failed? on 16:42 - May 7 with 327 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 16:36 - May 7 by londonlisa2001

‘ if being close to an infected person for 15 minutes means you probably got infected yourself, then do the maths for a whole flight. A 4 hour flight, the people in the same row (and behind and in front) of you infected every 15 minutes, then someone goes to the toilet’

It doesn’t work like that mun. You don’t get infected then immediately pass it in to someone else and then they immediately pass it on and so on. There’s an incubation period.

But as I said, I wouldn’t fly because you can’t keep distant from someone and that someone you’re near could be the infected one.

I’ve no doubt Heathrow’s size and importance as a hub and the population density of the UK are both factors.


The Uk is only the 51st most densely populated country, yet it has the second most deaths, so i'm not sure that can be a contributory factor
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Have the government failed? on 16:45 - May 7 with 321 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Have the government failed? on 16:28 - May 7 by londonlisa2001

Yes, but that still isn’t saying what’s been discussed which is whether it can exist in sort of infection clouds in a supermarket. One doesn’t mean the other even if they are right which they may not be (I’m not saying they’re wrong that it doesn’t travel by air, but it may not be in sufficient quantities to actually infect anyone, irrespective of what happened with ferrets in a totally different virus which they quote as an example).


How many studies that say it is would you like?
I found 5 without even trying that hard.
How about our own Government?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-infection-pre
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Have the government failed? on 16:50 - May 7 with 314 viewsScotia

Have the government failed? on 16:14 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

"I also don’t think any of the official advice anywhere supports the theory. "
Which was precisely why those Australian and Chinese Scientists wrote that paper.
"Therefore, we plead that the international and national authorities acknowledge the reality that the virus spreads through air, and recommend that adequate control measures, as discussed above be implemented to prevent further spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus."


But that is a long way from suggesting the virus can hang in the air for hours, it says "acknowledge the reality" I doubt anyone would question that. It is obviously not hugely contagious through aerial transmission in relatively large spaces, if it was we would be doomed.

I bet there are some very unlucky people who have caught it from someone exhaling in a supermarket, but that must make up a tiny percentage of cases.

I probably know 20 people with confirmed covid or have had symptoms within the last 6 weeks, each one can identify a likely place they caught it and they are all medical staff or their immediate family.
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Have the government failed? on 16:53 - May 7 with 311 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 16:45 - May 7 by A_Fans_Dad

How many studies that say it is would you like?
I found 5 without even trying that hard.
How about our own Government?
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/wuhan-novel-coronavirus-infection-pre


What part of ‘we are talking about the virus remaining in infection clouds inside a supermarket’ do you fail to understand?

If ‘our own government’ thought that the virus was swirling around Tesco Extra for 20 minutes in sufficient quantities to infect us every time someone breathed out they wouldn’t allow anyone in there. Plus everyone in the entire country would have been infected weeks and weeks ago in which case we can all go about our normal lives now.

Dear God.
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