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Have the government failed? 08:00 - Apr 27 with 25495 viewsRiscaJack

Can the more educated posters on this forum give me some opinions on this?

For me it looks like a complete disgrace from the start, no leadership, promises not kept, flights still coming into country from badly hit parts of world, using the excuse of "scientific advice" for not postponing the likes of Cheltenham Festival, Liverpool v Madrid, music gigs. We watched what was happening in Italy, I just can't find any excuses for them.

JENKINS OUT

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Have the government failed? on 18:54 - Apr 27 with 1127 viewskarnataka

Have the government failed? on 15:07 - Apr 27 by Neath_Jack

But those are not facts, they are the Profs opinion.

Some, or all may turn out to be true, but until proven they remain opinion.


Well the 3 I listed are all facts.
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Have the government failed? on 18:59 - Apr 27 with 1101 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 18:54 - Apr 27 by karnataka

Well the 3 I listed are all facts.


The ones you listed are unforgivable yet unsurprising. They’ve been lucky that the EU PPE scheme has been a shambles as well so it’s hard to say ‘we lost out on x because of this ridiculous decision’.
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Have the government failed? on 19:00 - Apr 27 with 1099 viewsNeath_Jack

Have the government failed? on 18:54 - Apr 27 by karnataka

Well the 3 I listed are all facts.


And?

I want a mate like Flashberryjacks, who wears a Barnsley jersey with "Swans are my second team" on the back.
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Have the government failed? on 19:07 - Apr 27 with 1080 viewskarnataka

Have the government failed? on 18:04 - Apr 27 by chad

Think the COBRA meetings you refer to were Jan / Feb

We are not in the EU so cannot discuss with OTHER EU heads


Under the terms of the Brexit transition agreement, the UK has the right to participate in any such schemes until the 31st December 2020 and that includes joint procurement schemes as signed up to by Cameron in 2014.
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Have the government failed? on 19:11 - Apr 27 with 1074 viewsZaxx

In some respects they have failed the people of this country. Many of the negative points made are reasonable and valid.

In other ways they have not failed at all.

This lockdown was primarily designed to ensure that NHS capacity was not saturated or exceeded. This has bought us time should the situation regress.
A lot of preparatory work has been in progress across all regions in addition to the highly publicised Nightingale hospitals etc.

Now that there is extra capacity with life sustaining equipment and PPE supply finally improving the lockdown can be lifted up to the point where we could potentially exceed the original level of infections without the whole health service collapsing.

Plan for the worst, hope for the best.

It's only a shame that the NHS was ill prepared to begin with.
Overspent or underfunded? Depends on your politics I guess...
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Have the government failed? on 19:22 - Apr 27 with 1056 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 11:57 - Apr 27 by Professor

Not completely, but a poor performance

1. Poorly prepared, given this was clearly coming
2. Too slow to act. The lockdown was about a week later than it should have been. Any earlier and it would have caused other problem
3. Not following scientific advice. I am sure it will emerge that the Herd Immunity option was not the main recommendation but was selected by Valance and Cummings to go forward to cabinet. This also links ti the late lockdown
4. Lack of transparency and downright lies
5. No concern for care sector
6. Hiding behind the Thursday clap, Captain Tom etc. to disguise the fact the NHS has been systematically run-down to allow a complete privitisation


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Yes - the Boris clown style government has failed in its most basic duty of protecting its citizens.


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Have the government failed? on 19:30 - Apr 27 with 1030 viewstaffpunk

I don't think they've done the best they could have, but I also don't believe that another party in charge would have done any better.
[Post edited 28 Apr 10:40]

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Have the government failed? on 19:43 - Apr 27 with 1010 viewsPozuelosSideys

Its easy to be a backseat driver and criticise those making the decisions when you arent the one even close to being in the position of making those critical decisions yourself. The majority of us have to live with a constant, daily stream of poor journalism who try and sensationalise everything in order to fill their 24/7 slots now there isnt much Brexit noise to fill it.

Some things have been done well, others not so much. A lot will depend on your political views in how you interpret events. Some will look for positives, others will look for the negatives. Same as it ever was.

Lets be honest, we are a long way from those intial figures of 250,000 deaths which was being spouted early days.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
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Have the government failed? on 20:01 - Apr 27 with 990 viewssP7qupUf

Just watched Panorama. Some interesting material covered.
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Have the government failed? on 20:08 - Apr 27 with 977 viewsmonmouth

Have the government failed? on 20:01 - Apr 27 by sP7qupUf

Just watched Panorama. Some interesting material covered.


Thanks for that.

Care to share?

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Have the government failed? on 20:14 - Apr 27 with 967 viewsBillyChong

Someone certainly failed to take on board the recommendations of that 2016 pandemic drill
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Have the government failed? on 20:17 - Apr 27 with 959 viewsWxmJax

Have the government failed? on 19:30 - Apr 27 by taffpunk

I don't think they've done the best they could have, but I also don't believe that another party in charge would have done any better.
[Post edited 28 Apr 10:40]


This type of comment is precisely what I can't understand, people saying no other party would have done any better.

Almost every country in the world has done better than us, but we had Brexit taking more importance than this and a farking useless PM going through a mid-life crisis. Enough people with first hand experience told us about him BEFORE the election, he hasn't let them down.
I really wish it wasn't the case but they are a farking shambles and Lisa, I don't believe it's holiday makers flying home every day. We've been at home for a month now, that's an awful lot of Virgin Atlantic and the rest of the airlines flying home from the USA and Canada every day.

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Have the government failed? on 20:36 - Apr 27 with 928 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 20:17 - Apr 27 by WxmJax

This type of comment is precisely what I can't understand, people saying no other party would have done any better.

Almost every country in the world has done better than us, but we had Brexit taking more importance than this and a farking useless PM going through a mid-life crisis. Enough people with first hand experience told us about him BEFORE the election, he hasn't let them down.
I really wish it wasn't the case but they are a farking shambles and Lisa, I don't believe it's holiday makers flying home every day. We've been at home for a month now, that's an awful lot of Virgin Atlantic and the rest of the airlines flying home from the USA and Canada every day.


Well Virgin Atlantic have been flying a lot of cargo flights.

Who do you think is coming here ? Genuinely. Do you think people are coming on holiday?

There were something like 100,000 people overseas a few weeks ago. That’s a lot of flights.

We have friends who were brought back from Peru. There were half a dozen flights back just from Lima. There have been 5000 people stuck in India alone.

Edited - while I was posting pozuelo has put a link up that suggests my figure of 100,000 should have been 300,000. That’s a thousand flights!
[Post edited 27 Apr 20:39]
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Have the government failed? on 20:37 - Apr 27 with 927 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 20:17 - Apr 27 by WxmJax

This type of comment is precisely what I can't understand, people saying no other party would have done any better.

Almost every country in the world has done better than us, but we had Brexit taking more importance than this and a farking useless PM going through a mid-life crisis. Enough people with first hand experience told us about him BEFORE the election, he hasn't let them down.
I really wish it wasn't the case but they are a farking shambles and Lisa, I don't believe it's holiday makers flying home every day. We've been at home for a month now, that's an awful lot of Virgin Atlantic and the rest of the airlines flying home from the USA and Canada every day.


Maybe at the end of this, when we have time to look back and put the numbers together we will be saying we have done better or worse, until then we don't know for sure.

Like I've said elsewhere, at the end of this a full and transparent investigationion is needed and if there's any blame to be apportioned then do it. If ther's any grounds for criminal negligence then press charges.
We are currently 5th for total deaths and also 5th per capita, it's not great by any means but it could be worse.
Lets be fair, we can hardly compare UK numbers with Vanuatu or Nauru. France is very similar population wise and they've done worse than us so far.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Have the government failed? on 20:37 - Apr 27 with 925 viewsPozuelosSideys

Have the government failed? on 20:17 - Apr 27 by WxmJax

This type of comment is precisely what I can't understand, people saying no other party would have done any better.

Almost every country in the world has done better than us, but we had Brexit taking more importance than this and a farking useless PM going through a mid-life crisis. Enough people with first hand experience told us about him BEFORE the election, he hasn't let them down.
I really wish it wasn't the case but they are a farking shambles and Lisa, I don't believe it's holiday makers flying home every day. We've been at home for a month now, that's an awful lot of Virgin Atlantic and the rest of the airlines flying home from the USA and Canada every day.


There were 300,000 who needed repatriating mind

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/31/how-will-uk-75m-coronavirus-repatr

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
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Have the government failed? on 21:18 - Apr 27 with 894 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 18:31 - Apr 27 by londonlisa2001

The lockdown is a very difficult one.

It is increasingly apparent that the people saying lockdown could only hold for a finite period were correct. It is beginning to fray, probably fracture completely at the edges. Noticeably so.

If the lockdown had started a week earlier, it would have started to break a week earlier. When the infection rates were far higher than they are now, so whereas the ‘first wave’ may have looked better, the possibility of a second wave would have been far higher, which MAY have led to a worse fatality rate overall.

One of the biggest problems is that the virus was quite obviously here in far greater numbers, far earlier than was thought. The Kings College tracker App project that’s been run here in London for weeks, now I think UK wide, suggests that the peak of the virus in London was probably late March, with infections being rife as far back as January.


If you think that the actions of the government have zero impact on the mood of the people to comply then you are correct. Its a straight linear shift, right or left.

However ...if the mood of the people to comply is impacted by the unmitigated disaster that has unfolded in terms of any number of failed measures such as testing, PPE, general preparedness, and Cummings inspired uk specific scientific guidance ...then a more trusted, mature, and experienced government might have produced a more compliant public.

An earlier lockdown with better results would have encouraged better compliance.

Likewise the actions of high profile people like Prince Charles and Boris ignoring the lock down probably does not create a good example for others.

Certainly the Tory govts that ignored the 2016 pandemic warnings have some explaining to do - hopefully to a judge.

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Have the government failed? on 21:45 - Apr 27 with 871 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 21:18 - Apr 27 by Kilkennyjack

If you think that the actions of the government have zero impact on the mood of the people to comply then you are correct. Its a straight linear shift, right or left.

However ...if the mood of the people to comply is impacted by the unmitigated disaster that has unfolded in terms of any number of failed measures such as testing, PPE, general preparedness, and Cummings inspired uk specific scientific guidance ...then a more trusted, mature, and experienced government might have produced a more compliant public.

An earlier lockdown with better results would have encouraged better compliance.

Likewise the actions of high profile people like Prince Charles and Boris ignoring the lock down probably does not create a good example for others.

Certainly the Tory govts that ignored the 2016 pandemic warnings have some explaining to do - hopefully to a judge.


As in my link from the Guardian, some things you don't believe will happen until you see them.
Go back to last September, if someone on here had been shouting a pandemic was coming just after Christmas we'd have laughed.

The lockdown was very well observed by the vast majority. The behavioural experts apparently said lockdown too soon and it'll go badly (words to that effect) and it looks like they were right. Bojo said it was about stopping the NHS being overwhelmed and it may turn out they were right.
It hasn't been a 'good'outcome, we passed that 20k death mark but unmitigated disaster? That would have been many more deaths than we have seen, the NHS collapsing under the strain and the army on the streets. What has happened isn't the best by any means but it's far from the worst.
Not that you would ever agree with that, your hatred for the English and any Tory goes beyond reason.

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Have the government failed? on 22:08 - Apr 27 with 848 viewssP7qupUf

Have the government failed? on 20:08 - Apr 27 by monmouth

Thanks for that.

Care to share?


Mostly about the warning on what was needed following the 2016 report, Failure to address it. As we moved towards this crisis at the beginning of the year there was no stockpile of PPE as recommended, offers of help from British industry not responded to. Shambles logistically getting the PPE out to frontline. When orders arrived at hospitals, less than there should be by miles and often the incorrect equipment. Lack of honesty and transparency by the government.
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Have the government failed? on 22:25 - Apr 27 with 827 viewsPozuelosSideys

Have the government failed? on 22:08 - Apr 27 by sP7qupUf

Mostly about the warning on what was needed following the 2016 report, Failure to address it. As we moved towards this crisis at the beginning of the year there was no stockpile of PPE as recommended, offers of help from British industry not responded to. Shambles logistically getting the PPE out to frontline. When orders arrived at hospitals, less than there should be by miles and often the incorrect equipment. Lack of honesty and transparency by the government.


Almost all of those things will be the responsibility of the various procurement and supply chain functions of the NHS and its Trusts. Neither an easy job in the current circumstances i would imagine.

"Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper."
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Have the government failed? on 22:26 - Apr 27 with 822 viewslonglostjack

Have the government failed? on 18:43 - Apr 27 by londonlisa2001

The countries that have been worse affected are largely the countries with the biggest amount of business connectivity to the rest of the world. The ones you mention, but also the Netherlands. The countries that are either not particularly connected, or are connected through tourism only, have escaped relatively lightly.

Germany is the outlier to that, but needs to be regarded with some caution due to the post mortem issue there and incredibly late reporting of ‘all death’ statistics.

All points towards the virus circulating far earlier than originally thought.

Edited - Belgium also.
[Post edited 27 Apr 18:44]


As regards Germany, the Robert Koch institute is reporting that the R rate or whatever it's called, has risen back up to 1 from 0.7. Worrying. The coalition is under pressure to ease lockdown from leaders of federal states which are home to some of Germany's biggest companies. The German equivalent of the Tory men in grey suits are queuing up to profile themselves, aided and abetted by the ultimate lobby party of the Mittelstand the FDP. Cracks are starting to appear and Merkel is not amused.
[Post edited 27 Apr 22:27]

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Have the government failed? on 23:00 - Apr 27 with 778 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 21:18 - Apr 27 by Kilkennyjack

If you think that the actions of the government have zero impact on the mood of the people to comply then you are correct. Its a straight linear shift, right or left.

However ...if the mood of the people to comply is impacted by the unmitigated disaster that has unfolded in terms of any number of failed measures such as testing, PPE, general preparedness, and Cummings inspired uk specific scientific guidance ...then a more trusted, mature, and experienced government might have produced a more compliant public.

An earlier lockdown with better results would have encouraged better compliance.

Likewise the actions of high profile people like Prince Charles and Boris ignoring the lock down probably does not create a good example for others.

Certainly the Tory govts that ignored the 2016 pandemic warnings have some explaining to do - hopefully to a judge.


We have been the most compliant population anywhere outside Asia. Which has surprised everyone.

But if they’d locked down when cases were a hundred or so and a small handful of fatalities, no one would have stuck to it.

The biggest issue was that those few hundred cases were in reality tens of thousands. It’s testing that has gone so badly wrong here. Even now people are saying ‘we’ve x cases’ with ‘x’ being the reported figure. Look at the number of people on here saying about our mortality rate. Unless you believe our treatment is worse than elsewhere, we have the same (ish) mortality rate as everywhere else. We just have had huge numbers of cases. Which is unsurprising given we have one of the most global cities in the world in London. But people don’t seem to accept that. Unless testing shows we’ve had huge numbers, people won’t accept it.

The reason lockdown can only last a finite amount of time is because people need money. Perhaps you don’t, which is great, but many do.

I aren’t noticed the non Tory governments of the UK being any better prepared btw. Has there been no issue in Wales and Scotland with PPE? They’ve all been shambolic as far as I can see.

Edited to add: I meant to say I agree re public inquiry as I’ve been saying for ages, I’d have Lady Hale in charge.
[Post edited 27 Apr 23:14]
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Have the government failed? on 23:23 - Apr 27 with 749 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 23:00 - Apr 27 by londonlisa2001

We have been the most compliant population anywhere outside Asia. Which has surprised everyone.

But if they’d locked down when cases were a hundred or so and a small handful of fatalities, no one would have stuck to it.

The biggest issue was that those few hundred cases were in reality tens of thousands. It’s testing that has gone so badly wrong here. Even now people are saying ‘we’ve x cases’ with ‘x’ being the reported figure. Look at the number of people on here saying about our mortality rate. Unless you believe our treatment is worse than elsewhere, we have the same (ish) mortality rate as everywhere else. We just have had huge numbers of cases. Which is unsurprising given we have one of the most global cities in the world in London. But people don’t seem to accept that. Unless testing shows we’ve had huge numbers, people won’t accept it.

The reason lockdown can only last a finite amount of time is because people need money. Perhaps you don’t, which is great, but many do.

I aren’t noticed the non Tory governments of the UK being any better prepared btw. Has there been no issue in Wales and Scotland with PPE? They’ve all been shambolic as far as I can see.

Edited to add: I meant to say I agree re public inquiry as I’ve been saying for ages, I’d have Lady Hale in charge.
[Post edited 27 Apr 23:14]


Drakeford (the new JFK) says no shortages in Wales to date for PPE. Viz .....

In a press conference Mr Drakeford said: "In such a rapidly changing situation… I'm afraid it was a bit inevitable that there would be some gaps here and there."

"There is PPE in the system for everyone who needs it," he said.

"We are doing everything we can with our colleagues in the NHS and suppliers to make sure that everybody who needs it has what they need and has it as fast as possible."

‘He (drakeford) added: "Almost everybody has it, that is really important to say that.

"There will be individual examples, I know, but if you're looking at the big picture then the stuff is out there, it has been going out there."’

.......

Agree on Lady Hale 🕷.

Here are some hard facts for you ....

[Post edited 27 Apr 23:29]

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Have the government failed? on 23:34 - Apr 27 with 733 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 23:23 - Apr 27 by Kilkennyjack

Drakeford (the new JFK) says no shortages in Wales to date for PPE. Viz .....

In a press conference Mr Drakeford said: "In such a rapidly changing situation… I'm afraid it was a bit inevitable that there would be some gaps here and there."

"There is PPE in the system for everyone who needs it," he said.

"We are doing everything we can with our colleagues in the NHS and suppliers to make sure that everybody who needs it has what they need and has it as fast as possible."

‘He (drakeford) added: "Almost everybody has it, that is really important to say that.

"There will be individual examples, I know, but if you're looking at the big picture then the stuff is out there, it has been going out there."’

.......

Agree on Lady Hale 🕷.

Here are some hard facts for you ....

[Post edited 27 Apr 23:29]


If there’s been no shortages in Wales that’s great. Rather different to reports coming out some time ago, but perhaps it was sorted.

Ref the ‘facts’. You can choose to ignore reality, but Germany are not reporting consistently with the UK. Deaths that occur without a positive test while alive are not counted unless proven with a post mortem. And post mortems are not routinely being carried out in many parts of Germany.

The FT today published a report on ‘excess deaths’ throughout Europe. It’s worth a look.

Edited to add: in respect of your edit, that’s not quite what you first said.
Also Johnson calling it a success is farcical. But then he always is.
[Post edited 27 Apr 23:38]
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Have the government failed? on 23:59 - Apr 27 with 716 viewsJoe_bradshaw

Have the government failed? on 23:23 - Apr 27 by Kilkennyjack

Drakeford (the new JFK) says no shortages in Wales to date for PPE. Viz .....

In a press conference Mr Drakeford said: "In such a rapidly changing situation… I'm afraid it was a bit inevitable that there would be some gaps here and there."

"There is PPE in the system for everyone who needs it," he said.

"We are doing everything we can with our colleagues in the NHS and suppliers to make sure that everybody who needs it has what they need and has it as fast as possible."

‘He (drakeford) added: "Almost everybody has it, that is really important to say that.

"There will be individual examples, I know, but if you're looking at the big picture then the stuff is out there, it has been going out there."’

.......

Agree on Lady Hale 🕷.

Here are some hard facts for you ....

[Post edited 27 Apr 23:29]


Why does she cherry pick a few countries to make her point?

Belgium 602
Spain 503
Italy 446
France 357
UK 311

Anyone can do that and make any point they like. I would have sympathy with her view in all probability but that's shoddy journalism which isn't helping her case.

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Have the government failed? on 07:14 - Apr 28 with 628 viewsDr_Winston

Have the government failed? on 23:59 - Apr 27 by Joe_bradshaw

Why does she cherry pick a few countries to make her point?

Belgium 602
Spain 503
Italy 446
France 357
UK 311

Anyone can do that and make any point they like. I would have sympathy with her view in all probability but that's shoddy journalism which isn't helping her case.


Shoddy journalism seems to be the default, but maybe they're just playing to the ghoulish types like Kilks who swallow every drop.

Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back.

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