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Have the government failed? 08:00 - Apr 27 with 25497 viewsRiscaJack

Can the more educated posters on this forum give me some opinions on this?

For me it looks like a complete disgrace from the start, no leadership, promises not kept, flights still coming into country from badly hit parts of world, using the excuse of "scientific advice" for not postponing the likes of Cheltenham Festival, Liverpool v Madrid, music gigs. We watched what was happening in Italy, I just can't find any excuses for them.

JENKINS OUT

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Have the government failed? on 15:56 - May 17 with 751 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 15:44 - May 17 by NotLoyal

This is what happens when private industry wants to make money from businesses that were once public owned. The blame lies equally with the govt and the owners of these businesses. Its easy to blame one side.


Until we have a joined up, not for profit health system which includes mental health, care homes and convalescent homes we are always going to have horrible outcomes. Primary care is another area where there’s been widespread privatisation by the back door.

To be honest, my view is that all of it should also be outside the party political system. Difficult choices need to be made, and they can’t be made with permanent party political point scoring. It’s too important.

There’s a third ‘side’ though in the who’s to blame question, and that’s, unfortunately, unpalatable for many people, as it’s the NHS. If, and it’s an if as we don’t strictly know, people have been released from hospitals to care homes while positive, without testing etc, the hospitals doing that is outrageous.

There seem to me to have been occasions when people say ‘the government’ when they actually mean ‘the NHS’. There’s quite a difference between the front line NHS and the NHS as an organisation. Criticising one is not a criticism of the other.
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Have the government failed? on 16:55 - May 17 with 692 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 15:44 - May 17 by NotLoyal

This is what happens when private industry wants to make money from businesses that were once public owned. The blame lies equally with the govt and the owners of these businesses. Its easy to blame one side.


I am all for public service provision so with you on that.

I am not blaming the care home owners though.
They do an amazing job day in and day out.

If the kit you ask for goes to the NHS as a priority and there are no other supplies available, then i am not really sure what you can do.

Obvuously the govt had the warning in 2016, and it has the resources to create and supply kit, but did not plan for this. Wasted precious time in both Feb and March.

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Have the government failed? on 17:18 - May 17 with 683 viewsNeath_Jack

Have the government failed? on 16:55 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

I am all for public service provision so with you on that.

I am not blaming the care home owners though.
They do an amazing job day in and day out.

If the kit you ask for goes to the NHS as a priority and there are no other supplies available, then i am not really sure what you can do.

Obvuously the govt had the warning in 2016, and it has the resources to create and supply kit, but did not plan for this. Wasted precious time in both Feb and March.


"If the kit you ask for goes to the NHS as a priority and there are no other supplies available, then i am not really sure what you can do."

At no point throughout this pandemic has my company not been able to get PPE, or more specifically RPE, it did get more difficult, and our normal suppliers struggled, but it has always been there. I can't comment on things like visors or gowns, because we don't use them. But disposable gloves and close fitting safety glasses were never "out of stock".

Which is why i was baffled when the Welsh Government put out an appeal for this stuff. Surely if an SME can procure it, then surely to shit they should have been able to.

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Have the government failed? on 17:28 - May 17 with 674 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 16:55 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

I am all for public service provision so with you on that.

I am not blaming the care home owners though.
They do an amazing job day in and day out.

If the kit you ask for goes to the NHS as a priority and there are no other supplies available, then i am not really sure what you can do.

Obvuously the govt had the warning in 2016, and it has the resources to create and supply kit, but did not plan for this. Wasted precious time in both Feb and March.


See this is weird to me.

You’re not placing any blame on care home owners?

This is a brief paragraph about the ownership of the UK’s biggest care home provider (329 homes).

“The company was put up for sale in May 2018 for £1 billion. Its immediate owner is Libra Intermediate, based in Jersey and the ultimate owner is FC Skyfall LP, based in the Cayman Islands. It has a complex corporate structure, with 50 companies, six of which are registered offshore either in the Cayman Islands or Jersey and a further five in the UK as foreign entities. Earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation were about £130 million in 2017. The company paid out dividends of £42.3 million in 2017 and £6.2 million in 2018.”

Apologies for wiki - it was quicker.

I am, by the way, placing absolutely no blame on them, or any others. I simply do not know. Many care homes do a wonderful job. Some, as I’m sure we’ve seen highlighted over the years, do an absolutely abhorrent job.

But I find it almost incredible that your automatic reaction is to blame “the Tories” rather than the care homes providers as you probably haven’t stopped to think about who the providers are. They are everything you purport to hate most of the time.
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Have the government failed? on 17:35 - May 17 with 665 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 17:28 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

See this is weird to me.

You’re not placing any blame on care home owners?

This is a brief paragraph about the ownership of the UK’s biggest care home provider (329 homes).

“The company was put up for sale in May 2018 for £1 billion. Its immediate owner is Libra Intermediate, based in Jersey and the ultimate owner is FC Skyfall LP, based in the Cayman Islands. It has a complex corporate structure, with 50 companies, six of which are registered offshore either in the Cayman Islands or Jersey and a further five in the UK as foreign entities. Earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation were about £130 million in 2017. The company paid out dividends of £42.3 million in 2017 and £6.2 million in 2018.”

Apologies for wiki - it was quicker.

I am, by the way, placing absolutely no blame on them, or any others. I simply do not know. Many care homes do a wonderful job. Some, as I’m sure we’ve seen highlighted over the years, do an absolutely abhorrent job.

But I find it almost incredible that your automatic reaction is to blame “the Tories” rather than the care homes providers as you probably haven’t stopped to think about who the providers are. They are everything you purport to hate most of the time.


Surely, it's the responsibility of the govt to ensure all patients and staff are protected regardless whether they are private or state run homes?They could bill the owners later.

Would the private homes have been able to purchase the relevant PPE given the demand for it?
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Have the government failed? on 17:42 - May 17 with 659 viewsexiledclaseboy

Have the government failed? on 17:35 - May 17 by controversial_jack

Surely, it's the responsibility of the govt to ensure all patients and staff are protected regardless whether they are private or state run homes?They could bill the owners later.

Would the private homes have been able to purchase the relevant PPE given the demand for it?


For a freeman in the land type you aren’t half into your state interference all of a sudden.

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Have the government failed? on 17:45 - May 17 with 656 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 17:35 - May 17 by controversial_jack

Surely, it's the responsibility of the govt to ensure all patients and staff are protected regardless whether they are private or state run homes?They could bill the owners later.

Would the private homes have been able to purchase the relevant PPE given the demand for it?


Private companies have all been purchasing PPE throughout. I’ve read that care homes have been sending bills for PPE to residents’ families (I have no idea whether that’s true or bollox).

It’s the responsibility of government ultimately to ensure the safety of all its citizens, but it’s not the direct day to day responsibility - that’s the job of the employer (whether it be private or local authority).

What IS the responsibility of the government is the provision of up to date, accurate advice. That seems to me to have been a failing. And to provide widespread testing. Which has also been a failing.

And the NHS has responsibility as well, as I said earlier, if it has discharged residents back to care homes without due care and attention, and also if GPs have been reluctant to visit those care homes (which has been rumoured).

But owners have responsibility as well for ensuring, for example, that their staff are paid enough to be able to isolate if necessary - my understanding is that there has been a real issue with this, as many are on temporary contracts, are casual workers, have no safety net and simply couldn’t afford to take UC so carried on working when perhaps they weren’t certain to be virus free.

And local authorities often do not give enough money for their care homes and residents of private homes they support (as everyone knows who has ever had a relative using one or looking to use one).

The whole care system in this country is a bloody scandal.
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Have the government failed? on 17:50 - May 17 with 642 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 17:42 - May 17 by exiledclaseboy

For a freeman in the land type you aren’t half into your state interference all of a sudden.


It's not really interference
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Have the government failed? on 17:56 - May 17 with 628 viewskarnataka

Have the government failed? on 17:45 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

Private companies have all been purchasing PPE throughout. I’ve read that care homes have been sending bills for PPE to residents’ families (I have no idea whether that’s true or bollox).

It’s the responsibility of government ultimately to ensure the safety of all its citizens, but it’s not the direct day to day responsibility - that’s the job of the employer (whether it be private or local authority).

What IS the responsibility of the government is the provision of up to date, accurate advice. That seems to me to have been a failing. And to provide widespread testing. Which has also been a failing.

And the NHS has responsibility as well, as I said earlier, if it has discharged residents back to care homes without due care and attention, and also if GPs have been reluctant to visit those care homes (which has been rumoured).

But owners have responsibility as well for ensuring, for example, that their staff are paid enough to be able to isolate if necessary - my understanding is that there has been a real issue with this, as many are on temporary contracts, are casual workers, have no safety net and simply couldn’t afford to take UC so carried on working when perhaps they weren’t certain to be virus free.

And local authorities often do not give enough money for their care homes and residents of private homes they support (as everyone knows who has ever had a relative using one or looking to use one).

The whole care system in this country is a bloody scandal.


No one will ever say it but there has always been an attitude that once someone reaches "God's waiting room", they are effectively expendable to society which is truly awful and disrespectful, hence those looking after them are paid an absolute pittance for what is an extremely difficult and frequently distressing job.
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Have the government failed? on 17:57 - May 17 with 624 viewscontroversial_jack

Have the government failed? on 17:45 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

Private companies have all been purchasing PPE throughout. I’ve read that care homes have been sending bills for PPE to residents’ families (I have no idea whether that’s true or bollox).

It’s the responsibility of government ultimately to ensure the safety of all its citizens, but it’s not the direct day to day responsibility - that’s the job of the employer (whether it be private or local authority).

What IS the responsibility of the government is the provision of up to date, accurate advice. That seems to me to have been a failing. And to provide widespread testing. Which has also been a failing.

And the NHS has responsibility as well, as I said earlier, if it has discharged residents back to care homes without due care and attention, and also if GPs have been reluctant to visit those care homes (which has been rumoured).

But owners have responsibility as well for ensuring, for example, that their staff are paid enough to be able to isolate if necessary - my understanding is that there has been a real issue with this, as many are on temporary contracts, are casual workers, have no safety net and simply couldn’t afford to take UC so carried on working when perhaps they weren’t certain to be virus free.

And local authorities often do not give enough money for their care homes and residents of private homes they support (as everyone knows who has ever had a relative using one or looking to use one).

The whole care system in this country is a bloody scandal.


I'm not sure if they have been discharged too early, as doctors know how long the virus remains in the persons system and act accordingly, as the tests are not always accurate and can still show positive for a long time, which I explained to you yesterday , and you claimed you understood.

Of course, owners have the duty to supply ppe, but they often don't, so have to be held accountable. Does the HSE have a role in this , if so where are they?

Care homes are no different to any private company in that profit comes before anything else, but that's another matter as it makes my blood boil.
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Have the government failed? on 17:58 - May 17 with 622 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 17:56 - May 17 by karnataka

No one will ever say it but there has always been an attitude that once someone reaches "God's waiting room", they are effectively expendable to society which is truly awful and disrespectful, hence those looking after them are paid an absolute pittance for what is an extremely difficult and frequently distressing job.


Yes, throughout this, I’ve been deeply uncomfortable with the whole ‘underlying conditions’ bit.

And ‘they were 85’, as though that means it’s fine.
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Have the government failed? on 19:00 - May 17 with 566 viewsmajorraglan

Have the government failed? on 17:28 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

See this is weird to me.

You’re not placing any blame on care home owners?

This is a brief paragraph about the ownership of the UK’s biggest care home provider (329 homes).

“The company was put up for sale in May 2018 for £1 billion. Its immediate owner is Libra Intermediate, based in Jersey and the ultimate owner is FC Skyfall LP, based in the Cayman Islands. It has a complex corporate structure, with 50 companies, six of which are registered offshore either in the Cayman Islands or Jersey and a further five in the UK as foreign entities. Earnings before interest, tax, depreciation and amortisation were about £130 million in 2017. The company paid out dividends of £42.3 million in 2017 and £6.2 million in 2018.”

Apologies for wiki - it was quicker.

I am, by the way, placing absolutely no blame on them, or any others. I simply do not know. Many care homes do a wonderful job. Some, as I’m sure we’ve seen highlighted over the years, do an absolutely abhorrent job.

But I find it almost incredible that your automatic reaction is to blame “the Tories” rather than the care homes providers as you probably haven’t stopped to think about who the providers are. They are everything you purport to hate most of the time.


Be interesting to know who the actual owners behind the faceless shell companies are.
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Have the government failed? on 19:06 - May 17 with 556 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 19:00 - May 17 by majorraglan

Be interesting to know who the actual owners behind the faceless shell companies are.


Jeremy Corbyn is my guess...
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Have the government failed? on 19:15 - May 17 with 551 viewsA_Fans_Dad

Of course there are very few good news stories about care homes who have managed COVID-19 quite well.
There are 3 in Swansea that I have been told about that have had no cases because the carers moved in and stayed locked down with the their charges.

There was also a case in the paper where an ex NHS Isolation hospital matron was running a home and she totally re-arranged it so that one wing was for quarantine and the rest for the healthy folk.
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Have the government failed? on 19:18 - May 17 with 549 viewsJoe_bradshaw

Have the government failed? on 19:00 - May 17 by majorraglan

Be interesting to know who the actual owners behind the faceless shell companies are.


It used to be relatively small homes which were family run businesses back in the 1980s but they struggled to cope with increasing amounts of red tape and couldn’t compete with the larger companies opening larger and larger homes.

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Have the government failed? on 19:52 - May 17 with 520 viewsZaxx

Have the government failed? on 14:51 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

Teeside will never see a conservative government acting in their best interests,

Which is why they were completely, utterly stupid to vote for them in the first place just because they didn’t understand brexit. As many pointed out at the time.

On the wider issue, it’s hard, it seems, to do what countries like Spain have managed to do and have lockdown measure eased at different times for different parts of the country depending on circumstance. People here can’t cope with it. Look how many are moaning that Wales and England are different, and that’s two separate countries with separate administrations in charge.

Imagine different measures in place throughout England. It’s what should have happened though. Going in to lockdown as well. As we went in to lockdown too late for London (although people largely too it upon themselves to lockdown voluntarily) and are coming out too early for some parts of the North.
Wales and Scotland haven’t come out of lockdown, so not sure why people are concerned about it as much as they are. Keeping a complete England wide lockdown at present isn’t sensible though. We have low infection rates, it seems, in London with the lowest R rate in the UK by some distance. So getting at least some of the economy back makes sense, because economic devastation also costs lives. More lives than the virus quite possibly.


Hey, I never said that Teeside voted for your London idiots.
I was replying to a post about about the government lacking confidence in certain areas of the UK.
Neither did I mention Brexit.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The post I replied to was concerned with approval ratings of our UK government.
It was suggested that the UK governments's ratings with dealing with the matter on hand was beginning to lack confidence.
I suggested that it could/may be that regional differences could could contribute to this.

In fact, I received a few texts/emails from my health care colleagues from several different regions about this and summarised what they've mentioned to me.
Leeds: London led policy does not apply here, it is wrong at this time.
Cumbria: We have a higher reproduction rate of the virus in our community and the UK policy is predominantly led by a city looking down on Capital statistics..
Manchester: Boris is sacrificing working class people in our midst for his ends and his supporters only.

I'm not sure that I personally agree with all or any of them anectdotes but since you are the guru here perhaps you can enlighten them and explain about their emotional and forthright statements.
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Have the government failed? on 21:30 - May 17 with 456 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 19:52 - May 17 by Zaxx

Hey, I never said that Teeside voted for your London idiots.
I was replying to a post about about the government lacking confidence in certain areas of the UK.
Neither did I mention Brexit.
I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

The post I replied to was concerned with approval ratings of our UK government.
It was suggested that the UK governments's ratings with dealing with the matter on hand was beginning to lack confidence.
I suggested that it could/may be that regional differences could could contribute to this.

In fact, I received a few texts/emails from my health care colleagues from several different regions about this and summarised what they've mentioned to me.
Leeds: London led policy does not apply here, it is wrong at this time.
Cumbria: We have a higher reproduction rate of the virus in our community and the UK policy is predominantly led by a city looking down on Capital statistics..
Manchester: Boris is sacrificing working class people in our midst for his ends and his supporters only.

I'm not sure that I personally agree with all or any of them anectdotes but since you are the guru here perhaps you can enlighten them and explain about their emotional and forthright statements.


I literally said in the post you’ve argued with that a single approach across the country is wrong.

We went in too late for London and have come out too early for some other places.

But I also said that operating a different policy for different regions is impossible in the UK in my opinion as it’s causing huge confusion even with different nations doing it at different times.

None of that contradicts even slightly what your colleagues are saying.

But do you know what? I’m unsure why people who don’t want to stay in can’t stay in. I have made my own decisions throughout. I don’t give a sh*t what Boris Johnson says. He’s a complete idiot.

I didn’t vote for him. In fact, I spent weeks arguing with others about why they shouldn’t vote for him.

They did in areas like Teeside because of Brexit. And now they’re p*ssed off. Imagine the surprise that he doesn’t care about the working class.
London didn’t vote for this tw*t.
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Have the government failed? on 21:39 - May 17 with 437 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 21:30 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

I literally said in the post you’ve argued with that a single approach across the country is wrong.

We went in too late for London and have come out too early for some other places.

But I also said that operating a different policy for different regions is impossible in the UK in my opinion as it’s causing huge confusion even with different nations doing it at different times.

None of that contradicts even slightly what your colleagues are saying.

But do you know what? I’m unsure why people who don’t want to stay in can’t stay in. I have made my own decisions throughout. I don’t give a sh*t what Boris Johnson says. He’s a complete idiot.

I didn’t vote for him. In fact, I spent weeks arguing with others about why they shouldn’t vote for him.

They did in areas like Teeside because of Brexit. And now they’re p*ssed off. Imagine the surprise that he doesn’t care about the working class.
London didn’t vote for this tw*t.


64 per cent of Welsh voters also did not vote for this idiot.

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Have the government failed? on 21:40 - May 17 with 439 viewsexiledclaseboy

Have the government failed? on 21:39 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

64 per cent of Welsh voters also did not vote for this idiot.


57% of voters across the U.K. didn’t vote for him either.

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Have the government failed? on 21:42 - May 17 with 431 viewslondonlisa2001

Have the government failed? on 21:39 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

64 per cent of Welsh voters also did not vote for this idiot.


And you have a different administration in charge of Covid response.
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Have the government failed? on 21:47 - May 17 with 421 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 21:42 - May 17 by londonlisa2001

And you have a different administration in charge of Covid response.


Praise the Lord we have a Welsh Government and a Welsh Parliament to stand up for wales.

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Have the government failed? on 22:08 - May 17 with 395 viewsrockj

Have the government failed? on 21:47 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

Praise the Lord we have a Welsh Government and a Welsh Parliament to stand up for wales.


You really believe this don’t you?

They’ve basically today admitted they can’t do the job and have let England take over testing

Go on deny it
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Have the government failed? on 22:36 - May 17 with 384 viewsScotia

Have the government failed? on 21:47 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

Praise the Lord we have a Welsh Government and a Welsh Parliament to stand up for wales.


That pretty much 50% of the Welsh electorate didn't want, and are doing a lamentable job of standing up for the people of this part of the UK.
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Have the government failed? on 09:50 - May 18 with 308 viewsCatullus

Have the government failed? on 21:39 - May 17 by Kilkennyjack

64 per cent of Welsh voters also did not vote for this idiot.


In the 2016 Welsh elections 65% of Welsh voters didn't vote Labour. All that highlights is the pointlessness of such an argument because it just ignore how our democratic system works. Unless or until we have a better system (and maybe even then) we will always be able to say a majority of voters didn't vote for.....

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Have the government failed? on 11:28 - May 18 with 276 viewsKilkennyjack

Have the government failed? on 22:36 - May 17 by Scotia

That pretty much 50% of the Welsh electorate didn't want, and are doing a lamentable job of standing up for the people of this part of the UK.


You know the score mun ..

The welsh people have spoken, its the will of the people, we are taking back control, faceless people in WM, etc.
Suck it up etc.

No need to thank me.


👏👏👏
[Post edited 18 May 11:30]

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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