| Is the lock down ending too soon? 04:59 - Jul 1 with 127047 views | Glyn1 |
That's basically it.
Thoughts please. [Post edited 1 Jul 2020 5:00]
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:33 - Jul 29 with 954 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:17 - Jul 29 by Professor |
This is the case. The problem is where do you draw a line, particularly as longer term effects- including massive increases in the likelihood of stroke, MI etc. Many infections can lead to other problems and massively decrease life expectancy. I would also suggest death rate is a poor indicator of what is going on. MOST people recover, but there is high morbidity and likely to be longer term issues with health. The infection rate is very valid. Many people get very ill without being life threatening.
The statistical/epidemiological data gathered has been surprisingly below the standard the UK normally works too. I can only suggest that the underfunding of PHE is a big factor. We would see the same with animal disease and APHA |
The ‘where do you draw the line’ is the crucial question.
Hence the problem they have at present.
The reality is that it can only be done on an individual basis, and any blanket policy will have problems. I guess the numbers are such that a blanket cut off is the only way to do it, however.
The reality at present, is that the overall death rate in England is lower than average (and has been for about 5 weeks or so) and yet PHE ‘deaths from Covid after a positive test’ are a quarter of all deaths being reported. That’s clearly crazy. Also PHE numbers (deaths with a positive test) are now higher than ONS numbers for total deaths with Covid mentioned on the death certificate. Which is not possible,
Deaths in hospital in England that are Covid related are around 10 a day at the moment. There is not a chance that 9 or 10 times that number are happening in the community. The way England reports, we’d have to believe all other diseases have magically disappeared. The decrease in life expectancy caused should show up in excess deaths. What will happen now of course, is the excess death figure will be negative for quite some time (many who have died would have done so relatively soon anyway). That’s not underestimating the devastation, it’s simply a fact.
We will have far fewer flu deaths this year - the people that would have died of flu any other year will have died as Covid related. You can see that in countries where it’s flu season at the moment. |  | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:37 - Jul 29 with 942 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:02 - Jul 29 by jack_lord |
I know this isn't quite related. The UK has over 45000 deaths recorded and Spain 28000. M cousin and his Spanish wife have said that those figures are clearly better than the UK's even the we have a population of 20 million more. The UK, however, has had 300 ,000 positive cases and Spain has had nearly 330,000 cases which means that Spain has a much worse infection rate but the mortality rate isn't as high. So my cousin is actually wrong but why are so many more dying in the UK? |
Spain only reports a death in their Covid numbers if it happened the day before the report.
As an example, yesterday England had 12 hospital deaths. If we reported the same as Spain, it had 2.
One of the reasons apparently Spain has been blocked is because the government believe they are fudging their figures and the figures can’t be trusted. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:40 - Jul 29 with 934 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:33 - Jul 29 by londonlisa2001 |
The ‘where do you draw the line’ is the crucial question.
Hence the problem they have at present.
The reality is that it can only be done on an individual basis, and any blanket policy will have problems. I guess the numbers are such that a blanket cut off is the only way to do it, however.
The reality at present, is that the overall death rate in England is lower than average (and has been for about 5 weeks or so) and yet PHE ‘deaths from Covid after a positive test’ are a quarter of all deaths being reported. That’s clearly crazy. Also PHE numbers (deaths with a positive test) are now higher than ONS numbers for total deaths with Covid mentioned on the death certificate. Which is not possible,
Deaths in hospital in England that are Covid related are around 10 a day at the moment. There is not a chance that 9 or 10 times that number are happening in the community. The way England reports, we’d have to believe all other diseases have magically disappeared. The decrease in life expectancy caused should show up in excess deaths. What will happen now of course, is the excess death figure will be negative for quite some time (many who have died would have done so relatively soon anyway). That’s not underestimating the devastation, it’s simply a fact.
We will have far fewer flu deaths this year - the people that would have died of flu any other year will have died as Covid related. You can see that in countries where it’s flu season at the moment. |
Agree with that entirely. My worry is that the infection is causing underlying problems which may not emerge clearly for months or years. The few people I know who have been ill (all in Liverpool) is a 2-3 month recovery time in very fit under 50s.
Of course the other worry is the ongoing rise in the 7 day average of positive tests from a fairly steady number being tested. To an extent this is the Leicester, Blackburn, Oldhams etc., but also a potential rise post July 4th in England. Worrying about quarantine is something of a distraction from a disease which is still very much around here. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:43 - Jul 29 with 927 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:40 - Jul 29 by Professor |
Agree with that entirely. My worry is that the infection is causing underlying problems which may not emerge clearly for months or years. The few people I know who have been ill (all in Liverpool) is a 2-3 month recovery time in very fit under 50s.
Of course the other worry is the ongoing rise in the 7 day average of positive tests from a fairly steady number being tested. To an extent this is the Leicester, Blackburn, Oldhams etc., but also a potential rise post July 4th in England. Worrying about quarantine is something of a distraction from a disease which is still very much around here. |
Should also add the commitment to having more than 60 million courses of three potential vaccines shows a clear improvement in government thinking. Still think ending lockdown was about 10 days premature in England though. And test and trace still needs improvement. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:45 - Jul 29 with 926 views | onehunglow |
Surely this latest concern is the manifestion of our inablity as a society to "act sensibly".
This govt,by believing that to be possible,is naive at best and criminally negligent at worst.
It's been ,no doubt,a nightmare for BJ but to allow the utter complacency of late is criminal.
Why have ,for example,Police failed to properly take action over large gatherings.
Why are pubs open.
Why do we allow people to enter a shop with no mask unchallenged. | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:49 - Jul 29 with 923 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:40 - Jul 29 by Professor |
Agree with that entirely. My worry is that the infection is causing underlying problems which may not emerge clearly for months or years. The few people I know who have been ill (all in Liverpool) is a 2-3 month recovery time in very fit under 50s.
Of course the other worry is the ongoing rise in the 7 day average of positive tests from a fairly steady number being tested. To an extent this is the Leicester, Blackburn, Oldhams etc., but also a potential rise post July 4th in England. Worrying about quarantine is something of a distraction from a disease which is still very much around here. |
Testing numbers are quite a bit higher than they were. The % positive has remained roughly the same (allowing for the daily fluctuations every week - Tuesday shows low test numbers for example as it’s the weekend testing stats where it’s lower).
They are doing huge programmes of door to door testing. And track and trace is picking up lots of contacts which would never have been tested before as they are asymptomatic. Pillar 1 testing is around 100 positives a day. At its height it was almost 2000. If it was the July 4th effect, that’s where it should be showing by now. And stats released for calls to 111 / 119 etc have also indicated no spike. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:52 - Jul 29 with 922 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:25 - Jul 29 by Highjack |
It’s hard to know what labour exactly wanted. I think most of their MP’s were staunchly anti Brexit but they were painfully aware that a lot of their support wasn’t, hence the flip flopping and lack of any clear policy or strategy. They tried to please everyone on that issue and ended up alienating instead. |
Corbyn wanted it-hence the failure of Labour in supporting remain in the original referendum. Clear majority of labour members were remain, but the idiotic hard left believed that it was a capitalist and imperialist organisation.
This allowed opportunists like Farage and Johnson to make so many gains through simple populism as the 'Islington Marxists" more concerned with Palestine than somewhere like Wearside forgot they were representing people who did not give a xxxx about this. I consider Johnson unfit for office. Would take Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown over him in this crisis. Not sure about Cameron-he may actually have been worse. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:54 - Jul 29 with 920 views | jack_lord |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:45 - Jul 29 by onehunglow |
Surely this latest concern is the manifestion of our inablity as a society to "act sensibly".
This govt,by believing that to be possible,is naive at best and criminally negligent at worst.
It's been ,no doubt,a nightmare for BJ but to allow the utter complacency of late is criminal.
Why have ,for example,Police failed to properly take action over large gatherings.
Why are pubs open.
Why do we allow people to enter a shop with no mask unchallenged. |
I was in Hereford a couple of days ago. There was a man in a Tesco express pulling his cardigan type apparel up over his mouth as he walked around the shop and up to the checkout. The staff challenged him and said that they cannot stop him shopping but that clearly was not a facemask and therefore not allowed. They said the police come in to the shop and check and he would have been fined.
He grunted some obscenity and left with his shopping.
People don't care unless it inconveniences them too much. |  |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:57 - Jul 29 with 920 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:49 - Jul 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Testing numbers are quite a bit higher than they were. The % positive has remained roughly the same (allowing for the daily fluctuations every week - Tuesday shows low test numbers for example as it’s the weekend testing stats where it’s lower).
They are doing huge programmes of door to door testing. And track and trace is picking up lots of contacts which would never have been tested before as they are asymptomatic. Pillar 1 testing is around 100 positives a day. At its height it was almost 2000. If it was the July 4th effect, that’s where it should be showing by now. And stats released for calls to 111 / 119 etc have also indicated no spike. |
There is a 28% increase in 7 day average since 4th July, As you say there is a degree of increased finding the positives. It is nevertheless concerning as we should really still be seeing a decrease in a standard epidemic. Time will tell I guess. ... I do expect to see a number of local increases-which is what is happening in most of Europe with some exceptions like the wider increase in Catalonia, Aragon and Navarra. Hopefully we are far enough down the line to pick these up and limit. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:04 - Jul 29 with 915 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 10:08 - Jul 29 by chad |
Thanks Prof, that is what I was thinking.
So is it likely they got the majority of the vote, as said above, wouldn’t have thought so. |
No. Labour' policy was unclear as partly driven by a remain membership, but clearly the leader and his comrades wanted out. Hence the lack of clarity and no specific commitment to remain in the EU.
I'm not entirely sure what Corbyn wanted to do on any area. Even under Starmer there is no commitment to seek re-joining the EU. It's gone, we just need to get the best possible deal, ideally EEA, but that's not going to happen. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:05 - Jul 29 with 913 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:43 - Jul 29 by Professor |
Should also add the commitment to having more than 60 million courses of three potential vaccines shows a clear improvement in government thinking. Still think ending lockdown was about 10 days premature in England though. And test and trace still needs improvement. |
I think they ended lockdown as they couldn’t hold on to it any longer so wanted some semblance of order rather than it completely collapsing.
People have their own version of lockdown as they see fit I think. Younger people are doing more than older people.
London is a ghost town still. No one is going into work. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:08 - Jul 29 with 912 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:45 - Jul 29 by onehunglow |
Surely this latest concern is the manifestion of our inablity as a society to "act sensibly".
This govt,by believing that to be possible,is naive at best and criminally negligent at worst.
It's been ,no doubt,a nightmare for BJ but to allow the utter complacency of late is criminal.
Why have ,for example,Police failed to properly take action over large gatherings.
Why are pubs open.
Why do we allow people to enter a shop with no mask unchallenged. |
All of this.
I think BJ's failure to act in February and early March is borderline criminal. If a University is putting contingency plans in place on January 26th you would hope government would have done so too, | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:14 - Jul 29 with 910 views | chad |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:52 - Jul 29 by Professor |
Corbyn wanted it-hence the failure of Labour in supporting remain in the original referendum. Clear majority of labour members were remain, but the idiotic hard left believed that it was a capitalist and imperialist organisation.
This allowed opportunists like Farage and Johnson to make so many gains through simple populism as the 'Islington Marxists" more concerned with Palestine than somewhere like Wearside forgot they were representing people who did not give a xxxx about this. I consider Johnson unfit for office. Would take Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown over him in this crisis. Not sure about Cameron-he may actually have been worse. |
I would say that the issue of in or out of Europe, is far bigger than any politician.
Do you really want to be part of an organisation that is so arrogant and monocular, that it declares from the top that it wants to build the world in its image?
John Hammond:
Don't worry, I'm not making the same mistakes again.
Dr. Ian Malcolm:
No, you're making all new ones
But perhaps if you consider the voters, an underclass that are too stupid to vote, if they do not agree with you, then you are probably on board with that? |  | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:16 - Jul 29 with 906 views | Catullus |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:49 - Jul 29 by londonlisa2001 |
Testing numbers are quite a bit higher than they were. The % positive has remained roughly the same (allowing for the daily fluctuations every week - Tuesday shows low test numbers for example as it’s the weekend testing stats where it’s lower).
They are doing huge programmes of door to door testing. And track and trace is picking up lots of contacts which would never have been tested before as they are asymptomatic. Pillar 1 testing is around 100 positives a day. At its height it was almost 2000. If it was the July 4th effect, that’s where it should be showing by now. And stats released for calls to 111 / 119 etc have also indicated no spike. |
I'm not sure what a clear majority of Labour voters supported, it might have all been down to Corbyn but many red constituencies turned blue, was it ll about Corbyn or because of Corbyn and many Labour MP's supporting remain? I don't think it's clear enough to make any accurate claims.
What you said about the spike in cases in Leicester, Blackburn and Oldham, they have large Asian communities and very strong familial ties, is there a link? We know BAME communities are more likley to die from covid, does it spread more easily among them too? Matt Hancock warned BAME communities to be extra careful,
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/health-secretary-urges-ethn | |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:24 - Jul 29 with 896 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:14 - Jul 29 by chad |
I would say that the issue of in or out of Europe, is far bigger than any politician.
Do you really want to be part of an organisation that is so arrogant and monocular, that it declares from the top that it wants to build the world in its image?
John Hammond:
Don't worry, I'm not making the same mistakes again.
Dr. Ian Malcolm:
No, you're making all new ones
But perhaps if you consider the voters, an underclass that are too stupid to vote, if they do not agree with you, then you are probably on board with that? |
It clearly is. There are benefits and downsides to everything. We voted leave and that is the decision. I would have preferred to remain as I believe the benefits outweighed the downsides, though clearly as other countries also believe there needed to be change, that would be needed. That's the past and I can only hope we don't throw some important standards such as food safety, animal health and welfare and environmental protections out to align with countries where these are less rigorous.
Unfortunately for the EU I think the pandemic recovery plans are akin to a suicide note. Biggest cut is to science funding. Go figure that. I would admit this has reduced by enthusiasm considerably. I more expect a new EEA or 'common market' is around the corner, without the federalism which is alien to the British but not other states who are far more in this structure already.. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:28 - Jul 29 with 892 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:16 - Jul 29 by Catullus |
I'm not sure what a clear majority of Labour voters supported, it might have all been down to Corbyn but many red constituencies turned blue, was it ll about Corbyn or because of Corbyn and many Labour MP's supporting remain? I don't think it's clear enough to make any accurate claims.
What you said about the spike in cases in Leicester, Blackburn and Oldham, they have large Asian communities and very strong familial ties, is there a link? We know BAME communities are more likley to die from covid, does it spread more easily among them too? Matt Hancock warned BAME communities to be extra careful,
https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/health-secretary-urges-ethn |
Yes there is a link:
1. Large multi-generational families in a single household
2. Cultural gatherings such as Eid
3. Relatively deprived areas (not so much Leicester which is fairly properous) with poorer healthcare provision and more ill health- Type II diabetes is much higher in South Asian communities for example
4. Difficulty in getting the message to older non-English speakers including lack of translated information in Urdu/Punjabi etc. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:32 - Jul 29 with 890 views | Highjack |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 11:52 - Jul 29 by Professor |
Corbyn wanted it-hence the failure of Labour in supporting remain in the original referendum. Clear majority of labour members were remain, but the idiotic hard left believed that it was a capitalist and imperialist organisation.
This allowed opportunists like Farage and Johnson to make so many gains through simple populism as the 'Islington Marxists" more concerned with Palestine than somewhere like Wearside forgot they were representing people who did not give a xxxx about this. I consider Johnson unfit for office. Would take Thatcher, Major, Blair and Brown over him in this crisis. Not sure about Cameron-he may actually have been worse. |
Labour policy making doesn’t really work like that though. It’s largely irrelevant what Corbyn wanted. Outside of the HOC business pretty much all the policy is decided upon at conference by the NEC and trade unions, people like Eddie Izzard (at the time). Remember they were locked in all night talks to come up with a decisive Brexit strategy then emerged bleary eyed with the groundbreaking idea to... “keep all options on the table“...
And yes a clear majority of Labour members were probably for remain that is correct but the voter base at large is a completely different beast altogether. Those four million that voted for Farage’s lot in 2015 came predominantly from traditional Labour areas. They went back to Labour in 2017 when they campaigned to honour the result of the referendum then abandoned them again in 2019 when it became clear they were trying to overturn it.
I know Corbyn was an absolute clown and should never have been anywhere near that position, but to lay the blame entirely at his door when the entire extended machinations of the Labour Party were moving in an equally incompetent way is just passing the buck.
Agree on Boris and the others, apart from Blair who is a dirty little war criminal and should be in jail. |  |
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| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:32 - Jul 29 with 889 views | Scotia |
So Wales, despite being in the tightest lock down and a population of around 3 million, seems to make up about 40% of all hospital admissions?
That is very worrying, or am I misreading the graph? | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:36 - Jul 29 with 888 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:14 - Jul 29 by chad |
I would say that the issue of in or out of Europe, is far bigger than any politician.
Do you really want to be part of an organisation that is so arrogant and monocular, that it declares from the top that it wants to build the world in its image?
John Hammond:
Don't worry, I'm not making the same mistakes again.
Dr. Ian Malcolm:
No, you're making all new ones
But perhaps if you consider the voters, an underclass that are too stupid to vote, if they do not agree with you, then you are probably on board with that? |
As for the last part-No, clearly not. My point is they (arguably correctly) did not vote for a party who was not offering them any hope. The choice for a more populist policy offered by Johnson did. Not that I expect they will get much in reality. It is entirely a failure of Labour's message on areas like health and education, and the success of clear messaging by the Conservatives. The UK's default is a Tory government. Labour is only normally successful when the Conservatives have run aground usually via their own hubris, or Labour offers a more centrist alternative. Corbyn scared people. They were probably right. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:37 - Jul 29 with 886 views | chad |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:04 - Jul 29 by Professor |
No. Labour' policy was unclear as partly driven by a remain membership, but clearly the leader and his comrades wanted out. Hence the lack of clarity and no specific commitment to remain in the EU.
I'm not entirely sure what Corbyn wanted to do on any area. Even under Starmer there is no commitment to seek re-joining the EU. It's gone, we just need to get the best possible deal, ideally EEA, but that's not going to happen. |
Starmer is ardent remainer. Remember he unscripted slipped in the possibility of having remain on any future referendum (on what people wanted Brexit to look like) at the party conference.
He is blamed for losing the election by some senior figures in the party.
Starmer has said he has accepted it, but he is very politically astute and will blow with the wind on some issues to build that support. I don’t think his views have actually changed though.
The problem is many do not trust those they see as politically astute, depends on what they are up against.
I thought Corbyn was easy to read, not changed either from wanting out of EU, whilst wanting virtually open boarders. He was terrified of losing support because he understood that many of Labours core voters wanted out of the EU. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:38 - Jul 29 with 883 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:32 - Jul 29 by Scotia |
So Wales, despite being in the tightest lock down and a population of around 3 million, seems to make up about 40% of all hospital admissions?
That is very worrying, or am I misreading the graph? |
Wales does show that (and has throughout) as Wales records admissions differently.
If anyone is taken in to hospital, they are recorded as ‘suspected Covid’ if there are any remotely related symptoms.
When they are tested, the number drops off hugely. England tests people on admission and records them if they actually do have Covid. So the number isn’t consistent. And hasn’t been throughout. Hospital admissions have been distorted for months by the Wales number.
But as a graph, it’s consistent, so useful. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:40 - Jul 29 with 881 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:32 - Jul 29 by Highjack |
Labour policy making doesn’t really work like that though. It’s largely irrelevant what Corbyn wanted. Outside of the HOC business pretty much all the policy is decided upon at conference by the NEC and trade unions, people like Eddie Izzard (at the time). Remember they were locked in all night talks to come up with a decisive Brexit strategy then emerged bleary eyed with the groundbreaking idea to... “keep all options on the table“...
And yes a clear majority of Labour members were probably for remain that is correct but the voter base at large is a completely different beast altogether. Those four million that voted for Farage’s lot in 2015 came predominantly from traditional Labour areas. They went back to Labour in 2017 when they campaigned to honour the result of the referendum then abandoned them again in 2019 when it became clear they were trying to overturn it.
I know Corbyn was an absolute clown and should never have been anywhere near that position, but to lay the blame entirely at his door when the entire extended machinations of the Labour Party were moving in an equally incompetent way is just passing the buck.
Agree on Boris and the others, apart from Blair who is a dirty little war criminal and should be in jail. |
That he may be, but would have managed this better.
I partly disagree-Corbyn rather gerrymandered both the NEC and largely put his fingers in his ears with conference decisions.
Ultimately Labour has to represent South Wales, NE, West Midlands as well as cities. Corbyn was not the right person and the policies too radical for many.
Right-some painting to do-have good day HJ! | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:43 - Jul 29 with 878 views | Professor |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:37 - Jul 29 by chad |
Starmer is ardent remainer. Remember he unscripted slipped in the possibility of having remain on any future referendum (on what people wanted Brexit to look like) at the party conference.
He is blamed for losing the election by some senior figures in the party.
Starmer has said he has accepted it, but he is very politically astute and will blow with the wind on some issues to build that support. I don’t think his views have actually changed though.
The problem is many do not trust those they see as politically astute, depends on what they are up against.
I thought Corbyn was easy to read, not changed either from wanting out of EU, whilst wanting virtually open boarders. He was terrified of losing support because he understood that many of Labours core voters wanted out of the EU. |
He certainly is a remainer. As were many centrist Tories too. Anyway it's happening now, and the advantages of going back are fewer than before.
Off to do some painting- have a good day Chad. | | | |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:51 - Jul 29 with 875 views | Catullus |
| Is the lock down ending too soon? on 12:24 - Jul 29 by Professor |
It clearly is. There are benefits and downsides to everything. We voted leave and that is the decision. I would have preferred to remain as I believe the benefits outweighed the downsides, though clearly as other countries also believe there needed to be change, that would be needed. That's the past and I can only hope we don't throw some important standards such as food safety, animal health and welfare and environmental protections out to align with countries where these are less rigorous.
Unfortunately for the EU I think the pandemic recovery plans are akin to a suicide note. Biggest cut is to science funding. Go figure that. I would admit this has reduced by enthusiasm considerably. I more expect a new EEA or 'common market' is around the corner, without the federalism which is alien to the British but not other states who are far more in this structure already.. |
Prof, if the Eu changed it's course, if it went back to being a trading bloc with seperate institutions set up to co-operate on science, law and order, education, health etc but no political aspirations, no single currency, no suptantional government setting rules for all. We could agree on free trade with each other but negotiate our own deals with other countries.
That I could vote yes to joining.
There is just too much wrong with the EU and all the signs are they want to push in the opposite direction to where I'd want to go, Federalism for example, they are clearly pushing in that direction. The single currency is a mess, it works for Germany and France I guess.
Like you, I don't see how cutting back on science funding right now makes any sense, they need more if anything. More to help find a vaccine for covid, more so they can find a way to reverse climate change... | |
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