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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:13 - Aug 1 by londonlisa2001
“ When it comes to slavery or racism these days an accusation is considered pretty much to be as good as a guilty verdict. ”
Picton actually received a guilty verdict at the time for the torture of a child. He admitted it, the case was only around whether it was allowed or not.
And he was arrested and charged at the time on many other offences. Most of which concerned his brutality, lack of process and generally being a monster. And that was by the standards of the time.
” Picton actually received a guilty verdict at the time for the torture of a child.”
We addressed this on a recent thread, didn’t we? The ‘guilty’ verdict was the product of a politicised kangaroo court. What he had actually done in the Calderon case was deny the Magistrate’s application for flogging and instead awarded Company Punishment, in this case ‘picketing.’ Deeply unpleasant no doubt but it was the same punishment that used to be awarded to drummer boys caught stealing grog.
Calderon appeared as a witness for Picton at the London trial proper looking none the worse for wear.
An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:30 - Aug 1 with 677 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:14 - Aug 1 by Lohengrin
Can you point me in the direction of any of their opinion pieces, Lis? I’d be interested to see what documents they have considered.
Can’t remember where I saw it Loh, I’m afraid.
I was reading about it a week or so ago when Cardiff council voted to remove his statue (it’s boarded up I believe).
The National Museum in its ‘online collection’ summarises a bit what its position was (they’d done work in conjunction with the national library from memory).
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:30 - Aug 1 by londonlisa2001
Can’t remember where I saw it Loh, I’m afraid.
I was reading about it a week or so ago when Cardiff council voted to remove his statue (it’s boarded up I believe).
The National Museum in its ‘online collection’ summarises a bit what its position was (they’d done work in conjunction with the national library from memory).
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:32 - Aug 1 by Lohengrin
I’ll have to do a bit of digging. I feel some lengthy e-mails coming on...
In that link I posted, they reference James Epstein, ‘Politics of Colonial Sensation: The Trial of Thomas Picton and the Cause of Louisa Calderon’, American Historical Review (June 2007).
I’ve a feeling, again from memory, I saw that referenced when I was reading about it. I’m not aware of the research / book / article other than that.
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:45 - Aug 1 with 669 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:38 - Aug 1 by londonlisa2001
In that link I posted, they reference James Epstein, ‘Politics of Colonial Sensation: The Trial of Thomas Picton and the Cause of Louisa Calderon’, American Historical Review (June 2007).
I’ve a feeling, again from memory, I saw that referenced when I was reading about it. I’m not aware of the research / book / article other than that.
Thank you. It should be easy enough to run that article down. This internet malarkey doesn’t half take a lot of the frustration and delay out of doing research.
An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:50 - Aug 1 with 665 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:45 - Aug 1 by Lohengrin
Thank you. It should be easy enough to run that article down. This internet malarkey doesn’t half take a lot of the frustration and delay out of doing research.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 11:29 - Aug 1 by londonlisa2001
Tortured a child. Also accused of extreme cruelty, severity to slaves, capital punishment without following any sort of process, Also slave owning, a number of charges of excessive brutality, executing slaves etc etc.
Even by the standards of the day his behaviour was so horrific that he was arrested and tried (found guilty) and there were calls for his removal as governor of Trinidad.
Cardiff council have voted to get rid of his statue now I think.
Didn't realise he was a bully
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 15:07 - Aug 1 with 622 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 14:57 - Aug 1 by Nortbankboy
Didn't realise he was a bully
I'm not sure bully is very apt. A product of his stime when officer sconsidered themselves better by birthright, the soldiers under them did as they were told or got punished. Floggings could happen for fairly minor offences, depending on the officer. And officers weren't necessarily good either, it was a time when commissions could be bought, a Lord with a deep purse could buy a regiment, the purchasing of commissions was stopped in 1871.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:29 - Aug 1 by Lohengrin
” Picton actually received a guilty verdict at the time for the torture of a child.”
We addressed this on a recent thread, didn’t we? The ‘guilty’ verdict was the product of a politicised kangaroo court. What he had actually done in the Calderon case was deny the Magistrate’s application for flogging and instead awarded Company Punishment, in this case ‘picketing.’ Deeply unpleasant no doubt but it was the same punishment that used to be awarded to drummer boys caught stealing grog.
Calderon appeared as a witness for Picton at the London trial proper looking none the worse for wear.
I did some looking and what I've read said that Picton was put on trial for approving the torture of Calderon but that the guilty verdict was overturned on appeal.
I also read that Fullarton and Picton didn't get on, maybe because Fullarton was more of a humanitarian, shall we say. He didn't believe in "let them hate as long as they fear" which Picton apparently did. Fullarton may have stirred things up against Picton.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 15:15 - Aug 1 by Catullus
I did some looking and what I've read said that Picton was put on trial for approving the torture of Calderon but that the guilty verdict was overturned on appeal.
I also read that Fullarton and Picton didn't get on, maybe because Fullarton was more of a humanitarian, shall we say. He didn't believe in "let them hate as long as they fear" which Picton apparently did. Fullarton may have stirred things up against Picton.
Oh what a tangled web.
The deeds of our empire coming back to haunt us
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 15:59 - Aug 1 with 600 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 15:15 - Aug 1 by Catullus
I did some looking and what I've read said that Picton was put on trial for approving the torture of Calderon but that the guilty verdict was overturned on appeal.
I also read that Fullarton and Picton didn't get on, maybe because Fullarton was more of a humanitarian, shall we say. He didn't believe in "let them hate as long as they fear" which Picton apparently did. Fullarton may have stirred things up against Picton.
Oh what a tangled web.
” He didn't believe in "let them hate as long as they fear" which Picton apparently did.
You’ve got that the wrong way around, mate. “Oderint, dum metuant!” is a famous line from the Roman poet Lucius Accius’ play ‘Atreus‘ that Picton used in a critical essay he penned about The East India Company. It wasn’t the creed he lived by.
An idea isn't responsible for those who believe in it.
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 23:36 - Aug 1 with 530 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 15:59 - Aug 1 by Lohengrin
” He didn't believe in "let them hate as long as they fear" which Picton apparently did.
You’ve got that the wrong way around, mate. “Oderint, dum metuant!” is a famous line from the Roman poet Lucius Accius’ play ‘Atreus‘ that Picton used in a critical essay he penned about The East India Company. It wasn’t the creed he lived by.
Now see, I read that Fullarton penned that essay about the East India.
I can't find the page now but I took this from Wiki which I recognise isn't reliable but here you are,
Fullarton had a very different background from Picton. He came from a wealthy and long-established Scots land-owning family and was a Whig MP, a Fellow of the Royal Society, an improving landlord, and a patron of Robert Burns. He had been a junior diplomat, before raising a regiment in the course of the American War of Independence of which he naturally became the Colonel. He ended that war in India commanding an army of 14,000 men in operations against Tippu Sultan.[7] Afterwards he had written an influential pamphlet arguing that the East India Company had brought trouble on itself by its unprincipled treatment of native princes and native subjects, and that a more humane policy would be preferable rather than "let them hate so long as they fear" Picton's policy with respect to various sections of the island population had effectively been "let them hate so long as they fear" and he and Fullarton rapidly fell out. (This, of itself, further worsened the rift: Fullarton's Indian pamphlet had also reported adversely on conflicts of interest and dissension between the English having weakened their ability to govern well, to negotiate effectively, and to effectively defend their possessions.) Fullarton commenced a series of open enquiries on allegations against Picton and reported his unfavourable views on Picton's past actions at length to meetings of the commission. Picton thereupon tendered his resignation on 31 May 1803.[4]
And it also says Wellington called Picton "A rough foul mouthed devil as ever lived" which doesn't exactly look good. Though Wellington did apparently like Pictonfor being brave and a capable officer. Lets face it, is there anything taver than leading a bayonet charge?
As an aside, Loh, I have watched "Sharpe" and it seems to me the character could be based on Picton. Served in India, Cuidad Rodrigo, Badajoz, Talavera, a rough, tough officer, as brave as anyone you can name.
There is a lot of comments about the evil white slave traders, but what about the black heads of tribes that sold their own kind to the white man, even worse in my book.
Never knew getting old would happen so quick!
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 18:14 - Aug 2 with 453 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:27 - Aug 2 by Johnw102
There is a lot of comments about the evil white slave traders, but what about the black heads of tribes that sold their own kind to the white man, even worse in my book.
Or even the arab slave traders who are estimated to have traded over 100 million slaves over the last two thousand years and the slave trade was only abolished circa 1930. Makes the 200 years the British were involved look like small change. No doubt L Hamilton will race in all the arab countries that pay to host grand prix.
All this recent hate has had its genesis in Minneapolis,which is rather bizarre in itself. I really dont and didnt think racism was that bad.I have a mixed race nephew living in Devon and he is quite happy and never had any run ins with the locals or the Police .His mum is also a single (working) parent.
Since this BLM,he has noticed previously ok people now viewing him in a different light,and not a good one-so thank BLM-you utter bellends. You have done nothing for people of colour nor will you and removing statues from 100 yrs ago aint gonna help ;the contrary. It will make white middle class academic more comfortable in their discourse of the dinner table.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 18:24 - Aug 2 by onehunglow
All this recent hate has had its genesis in Minneapolis,which is rather bizarre in itself. I really dont and didnt think racism was that bad.I have a mixed race nephew living in Devon and he is quite happy and never had any run ins with the locals or the Police .His mum is also a single (working) parent.
Since this BLM,he has noticed previously ok people now viewing him in a different light,and not a good one-so thank BLM-you utter bellends. You have done nothing for people of colour nor will you and removing statues from 100 yrs ago aint gonna help ;the contrary. It will make white middle class academic more comfortable in their discourse of the dinner table.
That's a losing battle, it's been done on here, lots. I have said several times that the way BLM (inthe UK at least) was behaving was causing more division, more arguments and making the problem worse. Some agreed but others just insisted I was a racist. I also got called a racist for saying all lives matter and that all racism, no matter where it came from or who it was aimed at, was bad.
If you weren't on the BLM train you were on the racist train, it seems. No matter, I will continue on my chosen path of treating others the same way they treat me (but usually better because if someone is abusive I rarely return it) and stick with live and let live.
PS, bringing up other racism or that slavery wasn't/isn't confined to the UK and historically the Uk is a minor part of worldwide slavery will have the same effect, you'll be accused of watering down the BLM message and so must be racist yourself!
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 22:14 - Aug 2 by Catullus
That's a losing battle, it's been done on here, lots. I have said several times that the way BLM (inthe UK at least) was behaving was causing more division, more arguments and making the problem worse. Some agreed but others just insisted I was a racist. I also got called a racist for saying all lives matter and that all racism, no matter where it came from or who it was aimed at, was bad.
If you weren't on the BLM train you were on the racist train, it seems. No matter, I will continue on my chosen path of treating others the same way they treat me (but usually better because if someone is abusive I rarely return it) and stick with live and let live.
PS, bringing up other racism or that slavery wasn't/isn't confined to the UK and historically the Uk is a minor part of worldwide slavery will have the same effect, you'll be accused of watering down the BLM message and so must be racist yourself!
When an Asian member of Parliament is attacked and accused of “gaslighting real racism” for standing up and talking about how she was called “a p*ki” in school and other racial slurs including the guardian cartoon you know it has become more about politics than race. They wouldn’t have accused Sadiq Khan of the same thing. They would have treated racist abuse towards him with the seriousness it deserves.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 14:52 - Aug 3 by Highjack
When an Asian member of Parliament is attacked and accused of “gaslighting real racism” for standing up and talking about how she was called “a p*ki” in school and other racial slurs including the guardian cartoon you know it has become more about politics than race. They wouldn’t have accused Sadiq Khan of the same thing. They would have treated racist abuse towards him with the seriousness it deserves.
I have a mate who loves tell a story about 'Paki' He says that 'stan' literally means land of so Kazakhstan means land of the Kazakhs, Hindustan land of the Hindu etc. So Pakistan means land of the Paki therefore calling someone from Pakistan a Paki is correct.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 15:24 - Aug 3 by Catullus
I have a mate who loves tell a story about 'Paki' He says that 'stan' literally means land of so Kazakhstan means land of the Kazakhs, Hindustan land of the Hindu etc. So Pakistan means land of the Paki therefore calling someone from Pakistan a Paki is correct.
I'll leave it to others to decide!
Yes that’s true but that’s not the meaning of the word when it’s directed at an individual in a derogatory or aggressive manner. Anybody shouting it at Priti Patel or Sadiq Khan in the playground wouldn’t have been acknowledging their heritage in a positive manner.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 16:24 - Aug 3 by Highjack
Yes that’s true but that’s not the meaning of the word when it’s directed at an individual in a derogatory or aggressive manner. Anybody shouting it at Priti Patel or Sadiq Khan in the playground wouldn’t have been acknowledging their heritage in a positive manner.
Oh I know, I used the word a few times myself when I was young and more stupid than I am now. The me of today is ashamed of some the things I said and did back in the day. I harboured the same grudges towards the English that Kilk shows today but a strange thing happened, I grew up, at some point!
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:27 - Aug 2 by Johnw102
There is a lot of comments about the evil white slave traders, but what about the black heads of tribes that sold their own kind to the white man, even worse in my book.
Don’t tend to be many statues of them dotted around the place.
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Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 17:37 - Aug 3 with 320 views
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 16:34 - Aug 3 by Catullus
Oh I know, I used the word a few times myself when I was young and more stupid than I am now. The me of today is ashamed of some the things I said and did back in the day. I harboured the same grudges towards the English that Kilk shows today but a strange thing happened, I grew up, at some point!
A few years ago Only Fools and Horses landed on Netflix and had a new audience that had never seen it before. There were a few articles describing it as deeply racist because in the early series there were a few throwaway references to “going down the p*ki shop”, then you had the hilarious Trotters Crash Turbans skit and the joke about the Rastas buying multicoloured tea cosys to wear as soppy hats etc. See there’s no malice in that. I think we too often forget about context. For something to be truly racist or offensive there should be clear malice behind it. It would be a shame if we lost the ability to take the piss out of each other in a jovial way or have some fun at each other’s expense. That’s the way to come together, through fun and joy and love, not anger, division and fearful silence.
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
Picton: Should his name be removed from street names (& the arcade) in Swansea? on 12:04 - Aug 1 by londonlisa2001
The historians at the National Museum of Wales and the Royal Collection , amongst others, disagree with your analysis.
Trouble is the National Musem of Wales is full of left wing universities types who hate the UK.
How about a national referendum in Wales to keep or remove the statue instead of a few people telling the people of Wales how we are supposed to think. George Orwell's 1984 is coming true before our very eyes. Only the authorised truth is now acceptable.
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