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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up 13:13 - Sep 16 with 1495 viewsTimTtam

500,000 pounds of debt couldn't be paid. Owner is entirely to blame, but it's the fans who suffer.

Which club will be next?

My name is Matt
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:18 - Sep 16 with 946 viewsReslovenSwan1

I am a free market capitalist. Good clubs like Swansea flourish and poorly led club fold up. I remember some tough games v Maccesfield when they were neck and neck with Swansea. Swansea were then taken over by the people labelled laughably as "sellouts" despite the fact the main movers are still shareholders and Swansea people. Maccesfield were not so lucky and have bitten the dust. Harrogate have taken their place and will survive if managed properly.

Wise sage since Toshack era

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:29 - Sep 16 with 909 viewsTreforys_Jack

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:18 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

I am a free market capitalist. Good clubs like Swansea flourish and poorly led club fold up. I remember some tough games v Maccesfield when they were neck and neck with Swansea. Swansea were then taken over by the people labelled laughably as "sellouts" despite the fact the main movers are still shareholders and Swansea people. Maccesfield were not so lucky and have bitten the dust. Harrogate have taken their place and will survive if managed properly.


They were sellouts , ie they sold up , not really hard is it.
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:39 - Sep 16 with 903 viewsReslovenSwan1

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:29 - Sep 16 by Treforys_Jack

They were sellouts , ie they sold up , not really hard is it.


Buyng and selling has been part of human existence since the cave man days. A person that sells is the 'seller' or 'vendor'. A 'sellout' is something else they might have done at Maccesfield. Swansea were heading the same route as Maccesfield until the 'sellers' took change and chased the cowboys out. The more the fans label the 'sellers' as 'sellouts' the more hope they give to a new posse of Welsh and English cowboys. I prefer the US owners to a whole host of Welsh likely lads.

Wise sage since Toshack era

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:45 - Sep 16 with 894 viewsFireboy2

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:39 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

Buyng and selling has been part of human existence since the cave man days. A person that sells is the 'seller' or 'vendor'. A 'sellout' is something else they might have done at Maccesfield. Swansea were heading the same route as Maccesfield until the 'sellers' took change and chased the cowboys out. The more the fans label the 'sellers' as 'sellouts' the more hope they give to a new posse of Welsh and English cowboys. I prefer the US owners to a whole host of Welsh likely lads.


You are my cocknose and I claim my £5.

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:48 - Sep 16 with 893 viewsTreforys_Jack

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:39 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

Buyng and selling has been part of human existence since the cave man days. A person that sells is the 'seller' or 'vendor'. A 'sellout' is something else they might have done at Maccesfield. Swansea were heading the same route as Maccesfield until the 'sellers' took change and chased the cowboys out. The more the fans label the 'sellers' as 'sellouts' the more hope they give to a new posse of Welsh and English cowboys. I prefer the US owners to a whole host of Welsh likely lads.


They would have sold to absolutely anyone, just to line their own pockets, which were already substantially full thanks to SCFC.

Aren't you one of the Dineen's ?
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:05 - Sep 16 with 888 viewsReslovenSwan1

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 14:48 - Sep 16 by Treforys_Jack

They would have sold to absolutely anyone, just to line their own pockets, which were already substantially full thanks to SCFC.

Aren't you one of the Dineen's ?


They would not have sold to "absolutely anyone". This is a false narrative that have done the rounds unchallenged on forum such as this. Why would they have sold to "absolutely anyone" and then kept £5m of their own money in the club at 2016 valutions. Have they contributed to the recent cash call? The 21% owner certainly have not.

My comments are 100% independent and false accusations of bias are a typical of those who defend and deflect from the wretched performance of the Trust which needs to be reformed such that it is a benefit to the club. They should be proud to raising £200,000 in 2002 but should now be contributing to the cash call of the Americans as their 21% holding requires. A £10m cash call would require £2.1m from them. They were worth £21m in 2016 but cannot fullfill their obligations today. It they held 5% they could find £500,000 for the club. They have given big money to London legal firms but have nothing for Swansea city.
[Post edited 16 Sep 15:08]

Wise sage since Toshack era

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:18 - Sep 16 with 869 viewsTreforys_Jack

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:05 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

They would not have sold to "absolutely anyone". This is a false narrative that have done the rounds unchallenged on forum such as this. Why would they have sold to "absolutely anyone" and then kept £5m of their own money in the club at 2016 valutions. Have they contributed to the recent cash call? The 21% owner certainly have not.

My comments are 100% independent and false accusations of bias are a typical of those who defend and deflect from the wretched performance of the Trust which needs to be reformed such that it is a benefit to the club. They should be proud to raising £200,000 in 2002 but should now be contributing to the cash call of the Americans as their 21% holding requires. A £10m cash call would require £2.1m from them. They were worth £21m in 2016 but cannot fullfill their obligations today. It they held 5% they could find £500,000 for the club. They have given big money to London legal firms but have nothing for Swansea city.
[Post edited 16 Sep 15:08]


Next level.
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:45 - Sep 16 with 849 viewsNotLoyal

Sad day.

OK I've changed it.
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:49 - Sep 16 with 840 viewsCatullus

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:05 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

They would not have sold to "absolutely anyone". This is a false narrative that have done the rounds unchallenged on forum such as this. Why would they have sold to "absolutely anyone" and then kept £5m of their own money in the club at 2016 valutions. Have they contributed to the recent cash call? The 21% owner certainly have not.

My comments are 100% independent and false accusations of bias are a typical of those who defend and deflect from the wretched performance of the Trust which needs to be reformed such that it is a benefit to the club. They should be proud to raising £200,000 in 2002 but should now be contributing to the cash call of the Americans as their 21% holding requires. A £10m cash call would require £2.1m from them. They were worth £21m in 2016 but cannot fullfill their obligations today. It they held 5% they could find £500,000 for the club. They have given big money to London legal firms but have nothing for Swansea city.
[Post edited 16 Sep 15:08]


They made a fortune out of the sale and left 5% in just in case the Americans made the club a success and the shares increased in value. Simple economics at work. They were already massively in profit after the sale.

As for the trust, competency issues aside, if the owners had bought the trusts shares then the trust would have money to put in but something happened there, didn't it?

On the OP, a lot of clubs will go the wall this year and the next. Some of it will be bad stewardship, most of it will be a cataclysmic, pandemic related loss of income though. For all we know the Swans could be close to collapse too, despite the owners cost cutting efforts.

[Post edited 16 Sep 15:53]

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:53 - Sep 16 with 836 viewsReslovenSwan1

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:18 - Sep 16 by Treforys_Jack

Next level.


You are using your get out of jail cards too quickly. The 'next level' is surviving on a championship income in a global pndemic using the US owner's own cash (excluding the Trust of course) and getting back to the PL. The previous owners could never done that.

Wise sage since Toshack era

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 16:01 - Sep 16 with 825 viewsTreforys_Jack

They lied and continued lying , they are still lying ffs. Always looking out for the best interests of the club, bollox. Heroes to zeroes never been more apt.
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 16:16 - Sep 16 with 819 viewsBarrySwan

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:18 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

I am a free market capitalist. Good clubs like Swansea flourish and poorly led club fold up. I remember some tough games v Maccesfield when they were neck and neck with Swansea. Swansea were then taken over by the people labelled laughably as "sellouts" despite the fact the main movers are still shareholders and Swansea people. Maccesfield were not so lucky and have bitten the dust. Harrogate have taken their place and will survive if managed properly.


When you say Good clubs like Swansea flourish


Presumably you mean good clubs like the Swans who renege on their debts as opposed to bad clubs like Macclesfield who renege on their debts?

I don't think Swansea City supporters or officials are in any position to lecture anyone about free market capitalism or good economic husbandry in regards to football clubs are they?
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 17:51 - Sep 16 with 779 viewsReslovenSwan1

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 16:16 - Sep 16 by BarrySwan

When you say Good clubs like Swansea flourish


Presumably you mean good clubs like the Swans who renege on their debts as opposed to bad clubs like Macclesfield who renege on their debts?

I don't think Swansea City supporters or officials are in any position to lecture anyone about free market capitalism or good economic husbandry in regards to football clubs are they?


Swansea city as a club/ company is the Americans, The Trust Jenkins Morgan as far as I am aware. A Welsh / US registered company with smallish debts trying to grow and live sustainably. Something I am pleased to see. Shame that the academy has been downgraded but these things happen. They fulfill their obligations like PL legacy wages to the likes of Bony Montero etc.

Previous owners have taken the club name 'SWANSEA CITY' and ran it into the ground defaulting on their debts and giving the city a bad name. For the last 18 years the club has been well run If they mess up the club will go bust and the Trust 18 years old will have no money to help or set up a new club failing in their obligations. There is no reason to think if the current owners were kicked out the cowboy owners would not return bearing false gifts.

Wise sage since Toshack era

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 18:23 - Sep 16 with 753 viewsbuilthjack

Sol Campbell is claiming £182,000 for less than 9 months work.

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 18:27 - Sep 16 with 748 viewsBarrySwan

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 17:51 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

Swansea city as a club/ company is the Americans, The Trust Jenkins Morgan as far as I am aware. A Welsh / US registered company with smallish debts trying to grow and live sustainably. Something I am pleased to see. Shame that the academy has been downgraded but these things happen. They fulfill their obligations like PL legacy wages to the likes of Bony Montero etc.

Previous owners have taken the club name 'SWANSEA CITY' and ran it into the ground defaulting on their debts and giving the city a bad name. For the last 18 years the club has been well run If they mess up the club will go bust and the Trust 18 years old will have no money to help or set up a new club failing in their obligations. There is no reason to think if the current owners were kicked out the cowboy owners would not return bearing false gifts.


Really.


I was under the obviously mistaken impression that a number of the so called sellouts and the trust were already owners when the club reneged on its debts through the means of a CVA? Clearly this couldn't have been the case in view of your comments.

Having followed events at the Swans for well over 50 years I must be mistaken as you seem to be a very knowledgable young chap.


Perhaps you can put me straight on who owned the club when it reneged on its debts in order to set the record straight in my mind for the future. I'm just a little confused as to why you feel that Macclesfield deserve to be wound up for owing money but that good club Swansea City didn't.

Which is the basis of my original query to you rather than who owned the Swans at the time of the failure to fully settle debts.

It seems a bit of a contradictory stance to be honest, however I'm sure that a smart young chap such as yourself can put me right on this.

I suppose that some may argue that local businesses who helped the club out at the time of the CVA by taking a substantial haircut on monies owed should morally have shared in the American cash windfall as otherwise it is unlikely that there would have been a club for others to profit from.

In fact I do recall suggesting to the Trust a number of years ago as the money initally started to roll in and large annual dividends started to be paid out and banked that the other owners as well as the Trust should make use of the creditors list to track down the original owners or descendants of those local little business' owed money and start recompensing them in recognition of their sacrifice in keeping the club going so that others including the Trust could benefit in such a hugely beneficial manner in later years as of course they and other owners did.

I was laughed out of the room as I recall.

Thank you for your ongoing help in clearing up this matter.
[Post edited 16 Sep 18:55]
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 18:39 - Sep 16 with 731 viewsonehunglow

Barry make a good point.In the 80s ,we were pariahs as we consistently failed to pay installments for players and a few clubs saved us by not having us wound up.
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 19:45 - Sep 16 with 688 viewsKilkennyjack

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 13:18 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

I am a free market capitalist. Good clubs like Swansea flourish and poorly led club fold up. I remember some tough games v Maccesfield when they were neck and neck with Swansea. Swansea were then taken over by the people labelled laughably as "sellouts" despite the fact the main movers are still shareholders and Swansea people. Maccesfield were not so lucky and have bitten the dust. Harrogate have taken their place and will survive if managed properly.


Hi Huw 👋🏿

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 19:50 - Sep 16 with 682 viewsKilkennyjack

Very sorry for the Macclesfield fans.

Not their fault and their club is gone.

‘Beware of the risen people’ ........🍀🇮🇪 💚 Dim byd grêt am brydain 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿🇪🇺

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 20:14 - Sep 16 with 667 viewsCatullus

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 18:27 - Sep 16 by BarrySwan

Really.


I was under the obviously mistaken impression that a number of the so called sellouts and the trust were already owners when the club reneged on its debts through the means of a CVA? Clearly this couldn't have been the case in view of your comments.

Having followed events at the Swans for well over 50 years I must be mistaken as you seem to be a very knowledgable young chap.


Perhaps you can put me straight on who owned the club when it reneged on its debts in order to set the record straight in my mind for the future. I'm just a little confused as to why you feel that Macclesfield deserve to be wound up for owing money but that good club Swansea City didn't.

Which is the basis of my original query to you rather than who owned the Swans at the time of the failure to fully settle debts.

It seems a bit of a contradictory stance to be honest, however I'm sure that a smart young chap such as yourself can put me right on this.

I suppose that some may argue that local businesses who helped the club out at the time of the CVA by taking a substantial haircut on monies owed should morally have shared in the American cash windfall as otherwise it is unlikely that there would have been a club for others to profit from.

In fact I do recall suggesting to the Trust a number of years ago as the money initally started to roll in and large annual dividends started to be paid out and banked that the other owners as well as the Trust should make use of the creditors list to track down the original owners or descendants of those local little business' owed money and start recompensing them in recognition of their sacrifice in keeping the club going so that others including the Trust could benefit in such a hugely beneficial manner in later years as of course they and other owners did.

I was laughed out of the room as I recall.

Thank you for your ongoing help in clearing up this matter.
[Post edited 16 Sep 18:55]


I agree with you. The previous owners made millions when they sold, they could easily have afforded to pay what the local businesses allowed them off their debts back then.

We were proud to be a locally owned club, made big publicity off how well we did as a locally owned, sustainable club, then they took the money and ran.

A CVA isn't considered reneging on debts though, it is coming to an agreement about how much can reasonably be paid back, a legal arrangement

Just my opinion, but WTF do I know anyway?
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:04 - Sep 16 with 634 viewsmajorraglan

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 18:39 - Sep 16 by onehunglow

Barry make a good point.In the 80s ,we were pariahs as we consistently failed to pay installments for players and a few clubs saved us by not having us wound up.


I can remember chucking money in to the Save Our Swans bucket collections at Swansea Market during my lunch hour ventures in to town.
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:08 - Sep 16 with 630 viewsBarrySwan

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 20:14 - Sep 16 by Catullus

I agree with you. The previous owners made millions when they sold, they could easily have afforded to pay what the local businesses allowed them off their debts back then.

We were proud to be a locally owned club, made big publicity off how well we did as a locally owned, sustainable club, then they took the money and ran.

A CVA isn't considered reneging on debts though, it is coming to an agreement about how much can reasonably be paid back, a legal arrangement


Well lets just say its a legal arrangement to renege on debts.

As you say the goodwill generated by tracking down just the genuine little businesses owed money and who paved the way for future fortunes for some would have been stratospheric.

I'm still pretty disgusted that the Trust didn't even consider it worth raising the subject at board level even if only to see the idea knocked back.
[Post edited 16 Sep 21:51]
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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 21:51 - Sep 16 with 596 viewsBadlands

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 15:05 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

They would not have sold to "absolutely anyone". This is a false narrative that have done the rounds unchallenged on forum such as this. Why would they have sold to "absolutely anyone" and then kept £5m of their own money in the club at 2016 valutions. Have they contributed to the recent cash call? The 21% owner certainly have not.

My comments are 100% independent and false accusations of bias are a typical of those who defend and deflect from the wretched performance of the Trust which needs to be reformed such that it is a benefit to the club. They should be proud to raising £200,000 in 2002 but should now be contributing to the cash call of the Americans as their 21% holding requires. A £10m cash call would require £2.1m from them. They were worth £21m in 2016 but cannot fullfill their obligations today. It they held 5% they could find £500,000 for the club. They have given big money to London legal firms but have nothing for Swansea city.
[Post edited 16 Sep 15:08]


It's hard getting through to some who will take every opportunity (and in many cases invent 'truths' by imposing personal morals on others) to rail against the club.
In my view there were people who stumped up to save the Swans, kept the good management model going until it was obvious they could no longer meet the demands of running a Premier League club.
They may not have put huge sums into the club but they didn't take money out either.
Given our situation from 2014 I think we've been well managed for sustainability.

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 22:48 - Sep 16 with 563 viewsVincent_Vega

Another sad case and not the last. We could’ve been in that situation a few times in the past and could well be in the future.

Boycott Shampoo......Demand Real Poo!!!

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 23:22 - Sep 16 with 549 viewsReslovenSwan1

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 18:27 - Sep 16 by BarrySwan

Really.


I was under the obviously mistaken impression that a number of the so called sellouts and the trust were already owners when the club reneged on its debts through the means of a CVA? Clearly this couldn't have been the case in view of your comments.

Having followed events at the Swans for well over 50 years I must be mistaken as you seem to be a very knowledgable young chap.


Perhaps you can put me straight on who owned the club when it reneged on its debts in order to set the record straight in my mind for the future. I'm just a little confused as to why you feel that Macclesfield deserve to be wound up for owing money but that good club Swansea City didn't.

Which is the basis of my original query to you rather than who owned the Swans at the time of the failure to fully settle debts.

It seems a bit of a contradictory stance to be honest, however I'm sure that a smart young chap such as yourself can put me right on this.

I suppose that some may argue that local businesses who helped the club out at the time of the CVA by taking a substantial haircut on monies owed should morally have shared in the American cash windfall as otherwise it is unlikely that there would have been a club for others to profit from.

In fact I do recall suggesting to the Trust a number of years ago as the money initally started to roll in and large annual dividends started to be paid out and banked that the other owners as well as the Trust should make use of the creditors list to track down the original owners or descendants of those local little business' owed money and start recompensing them in recognition of their sacrifice in keeping the club going so that others including the Trust could benefit in such a hugely beneficial manner in later years as of course they and other owners did.

I was laughed out of the room as I recall.

Thank you for your ongoing help in clearing up this matter.
[Post edited 16 Sep 18:55]


The new board bought the clubs debts in December 2001 Mel Nurse playing a key role according to the BBC report. The debts £1.7m were in the majority, owed to previous owners of Swansea city who clearly had to loan money to the club to keep it going. This was because the club was poorly run, - by themselves. I am sure they would have been delighted to get a 100% payback and a reward for their poor work.

Just like Sol Cambell, the BBC reported the Swansea manager was owed £250,000 but did not do the paperwork correctly acording to the BBC so his rejection vote for the CVA did not count. He unlike Campbell saw 5% of his money which was better than nothing. How any person working for the club would allow such debts are beyond me. Thats 10 years work for the average man in the street.

Debts to the taxpayer were subsequently paid in full. £364,000. It is the tax bill that kills as they are ruthless. So there is your answer. Pay your tax and maybe you can survive. Swansea paid their tax bills. Maccesfield did not.

The V in CVA means voluntary. Hopefully local businesses affected took the long view and in the last 18 years have re engaged and profited from a sucessfull club. Unconfirmed information suggests this includes small sums to organisation like Brains, Felinfoel, Swansea Sound and the Western Mail who no doubt will have benefited from the reborn Swansea city, as have the local councils of Swansea and Neath Port Talbot.

More worryingly a clothing company and a coach company were listed in the unconfirmed information I found on the internet. It is hoped they survived and benefited from Swansea city is subsequent years. These two companies were owed around £30,000 in total. Perhaps they made representations to the new club for trade or else wrote off their debts and moved on like lots of people have had to do to various levels including myself for similar sums.

The Swansea city Trust has a staggering valuation of £21,000,000 in 2016 but failed to sell a single share. I applaud your efforts to recompense the smaller business people affected by the CVA, which was in the best interests of the city of Swansea as a whole when you consider upto 400 people were working there on good money in the Premier league years.

Wise sage since Toshack era

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Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 02:19 - Sep 17 with 515 viewsBarrySwan

Macclesfield Town Wound-Up on 23:22 - Sep 16 by ReslovenSwan1

The new board bought the clubs debts in December 2001 Mel Nurse playing a key role according to the BBC report. The debts £1.7m were in the majority, owed to previous owners of Swansea city who clearly had to loan money to the club to keep it going. This was because the club was poorly run, - by themselves. I am sure they would have been delighted to get a 100% payback and a reward for their poor work.

Just like Sol Cambell, the BBC reported the Swansea manager was owed £250,000 but did not do the paperwork correctly acording to the BBC so his rejection vote for the CVA did not count. He unlike Campbell saw 5% of his money which was better than nothing. How any person working for the club would allow such debts are beyond me. Thats 10 years work for the average man in the street.

Debts to the taxpayer were subsequently paid in full. £364,000. It is the tax bill that kills as they are ruthless. So there is your answer. Pay your tax and maybe you can survive. Swansea paid their tax bills. Maccesfield did not.

The V in CVA means voluntary. Hopefully local businesses affected took the long view and in the last 18 years have re engaged and profited from a sucessfull club. Unconfirmed information suggests this includes small sums to organisation like Brains, Felinfoel, Swansea Sound and the Western Mail who no doubt will have benefited from the reborn Swansea city, as have the local councils of Swansea and Neath Port Talbot.

More worryingly a clothing company and a coach company were listed in the unconfirmed information I found on the internet. It is hoped they survived and benefited from Swansea city is subsequent years. These two companies were owed around £30,000 in total. Perhaps they made representations to the new club for trade or else wrote off their debts and moved on like lots of people have had to do to various levels including myself for similar sums.

The Swansea city Trust has a staggering valuation of £21,000,000 in 2016 but failed to sell a single share. I applaud your efforts to recompense the smaller business people affected by the CVA, which was in the best interests of the city of Swansea as a whole when you consider upto 400 people were working there on good money in the Premier league years.


I see, so presumably you're hinting that perhaps paying tax is just for us mere mortals outside the world of football and resent the fact that the Swans had to hand over payment to the countries exchequer just like the rest of us, to help provide services, education and health etc etc??

Those of us who have supported the Swans for decades know the story word for word as we lived through it and don't have to lift the details off the internet as you have just done.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with your patronising Good clubs like Swansea survive and poorly led clubs go bust line as if Macclesfield are any different to the Swans in being poorly run and led but survived purely by reneging on many of its debts which also undermine your comments about being a believer in free market capitalism.
[Post edited 17 Sep 2:24]
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