| Right l’m putting myself out there 23:12 - Aug 17 with 4905 views | max936 |
Would we have lost that 3-1 if Stevie was still in charge,
Fire away, as Clint said in a Fist full of Dollars aim at the heart  |  |
| |  |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 23:19 - Aug 17 with 2966 views | Chief |
Absolutely no chance we'd have conceded any of those goals against that Stoke team sorry.
We wouldn't have scored either. |  |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 23:33 - Aug 17 with 2907 views | AndyCole |
Highly unlikely, is the politest I can muster.
Brave hearty thread Max, the happy clappers will be chomping at the bit.
Martin was Coopered by Stoke. Then Stoke Martined Martin when cruising 3-0, showboating.
Martin needs to regroup and build upon our previously winning defensive formula. But of course he needs the right personnel (same ol' same ol' story) to then tackle our turgid midfield and toothless forward line.
. |  |
| Pro free speech and alternative opinions -
Anti gang-bullying and poor modding thereof -
Will always make a stand against those who consistently choose to turn a blind eye |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 23:43 - Aug 17 with 2889 views | Badlands |
No, it would have been 0 - 2 or 0 - 3
There are really ridiculous posts as if Cooper won every game!
We lost to some of the worst teams Derby, Huddersfield and that was after more than a season to get things right.
And Cooper's sides didn’t get to hear the Liberty groans when a pass went astray.
It sounds like we have a lot of posters who are really desperate for a return of the football equivalent of watching paint dry and are delighted we lost. |  |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 03:54 - Aug 18 with 2756 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Absolutely not. Look at the goals, apart from the last corner they were directly as a result of being forced to play in a way we are unable to.
Not just that, but the opposition being completely alert to us not being able to play this way and setting up to punish us, and we do nothing but allow them to.
First goal:-
Every single avenue is closed off for the pass. The one that hasn’t been is just about to be as you can see the play recognising the trap is being set and making a bee line to cover our free man in midfield.
We give the ball away as they knew we would. We then aren’t composed when they have possession either and foul their attacker through the back of him when there wasn’t too much danger. They then score from that free kick.
The next goal - note that they are always matching us man for man in ball playing areas. This is intentional and something you will now be seeing weekly from our opposition. It forces us to make a difficult pass, which we mostly are incapable of doing and also puts the ball carrier under pressure. We are matched 3 for 3 in our own half here:-
Again we lose it as they expect us to and they have a 3 on 3 attack with us back peddling on the back foot and they then go on to score. Look how vulnerable a single misplaced pass leaves us when being matched man for man:-
So would we have lost 3-1 under the old system? Very unlikely indeed. |  |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:16 - Aug 18 with 2632 views | builthjack |
If rumours are right, and Cooper asked the club to spend around £3m on a striker and a midfielder last pre season - we know Moore was the striker - I believe that we would now be in the Premier League.
The football wasnt pretty, and Cooper would likely have been replaced once up there. |  |
| Swansea Indepenent Poster Of The Year 2021. Dr P / Mart66 / Roathie / Parlay / E20/ Duffle was 2nd, but he is deluded and thinks in his little twisted brain that he won. Poor sod. We let him win this year, as he has cried for a whole year. His 14 usernames, bless his cotton socks.
|
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:22 - Aug 18 with 2617 views | PatchesOHoulihan |
Our midfielders need to do more. They are either in each other’s toes passing for the sake of it back and fore between them or they are giving the ball to the wide players then moving away leaving players totally isolated.
You could see the difference between our midfielders and Allen for them who continuously worked hard to give his team an option all night whether or not he received the ball |  |
| This is Patches O'Houlihan saying "Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you." |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:23 - Aug 18 with 2615 views | Thornburyswan |
No, probably lost 0-1 but might have got a draw out of it - but this is likely to happen repetitively whilst we go through a transition from Cooperball to Martin’s possession/passing based style.
Would not expect to see more meaningful & crucially consistent improvement until the second half of the second half of the season, just hoping we won’t be sitting in the bottom 3 & adrift by then as I doubt our fans have the patience for that. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:29 - Aug 18 with 2609 views | jack247 |
No we wouldn’t have. Certainly not that easily.
When Martin was appointed, most people were saying this was going to take time and patience and that we were bound to struggle early on. There’s no point over reacting now that something the majority of us predicted is happening.
I genuinely think this system has potential, but we just don’t have enough players suited to it. We need to move the ball quickly and incisively. We also need to be moving quickly into space to allow teammates to do that. Fulton and both wingbacks tend to slow us down, which means we go back and start again, the opposition get everyone in position and it’s nearly impossible to break them down.
We also need players willing to run at opponents like Dyer or Sinclair. Beat a man, force someone to cover him and create space for our passing to exploit.
Lowe up front needs to stop as well. He’s not a target man. Piroe seems a little bit off the pace, but he can win headers, put himself about and bring people into play.
Not sure how good he is defensively, but I’d like to see Lowe and Laird in the wide roles with Piroe up front. | | | |
Login to get fewer ads
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:39 - Aug 18 with 2593 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:29 - Aug 18 by jack247 |
No we wouldn’t have. Certainly not that easily.
When Martin was appointed, most people were saying this was going to take time and patience and that we were bound to struggle early on. There’s no point over reacting now that something the majority of us predicted is happening.
I genuinely think this system has potential, but we just don’t have enough players suited to it. We need to move the ball quickly and incisively. We also need to be moving quickly into space to allow teammates to do that. Fulton and both wingbacks tend to slow us down, which means we go back and start again, the opposition get everyone in position and it’s nearly impossible to break them down.
We also need players willing to run at opponents like Dyer or Sinclair. Beat a man, force someone to cover him and create space for our passing to exploit.
Lowe up front needs to stop as well. He’s not a target man. Piroe seems a little bit off the pace, but he can win headers, put himself about and bring people into play.
Not sure how good he is defensively, but I’d like to see Lowe and Laird in the wide roles with Piroe up front. |
Agree with this post word for word.
Something very off about Lowe at the moment though. |  | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:48 - Aug 18 with 2565 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:29 - Aug 18 by jack247 |
No we wouldn’t have. Certainly not that easily.
When Martin was appointed, most people were saying this was going to take time and patience and that we were bound to struggle early on. There’s no point over reacting now that something the majority of us predicted is happening.
I genuinely think this system has potential, but we just don’t have enough players suited to it. We need to move the ball quickly and incisively. We also need to be moving quickly into space to allow teammates to do that. Fulton and both wingbacks tend to slow us down, which means we go back and start again, the opposition get everyone in position and it’s nearly impossible to break them down.
We also need players willing to run at opponents like Dyer or Sinclair. Beat a man, force someone to cover him and create space for our passing to exploit.
Lowe up front needs to stop as well. He’s not a target man. Piroe seems a little bit off the pace, but he can win headers, put himself about and bring people into play.
Not sure how good he is defensively, but I’d like to see Lowe and Laird in the wide roles with Piroe up front. |
Slightly different reason for the call for patience though, that's the issue here.
I was (am) also one to advocate for patience and time for a system to become optimum, was the same when Laudrup especially did away with our winger system that had become such a huge part of our style. I would have given that months and months to become second nature with the squad and become optimum.
However this is more than a time issue. Time can get us used to patterns of play and get used to each others runs, but time wont really make someone a better passer, wont make someone know how to suddenly hold the ball up or make someone from a defensive minded player into one that can become a creative force.
If its a system ''bedding in'' issue, patience is key. If it's a personnel issue then that needs to be addressed and recognised as a matter of urgency because they can have as much time as they like, but if they are the wrong player - the issue doesn't go away with time.
So patience is absolutely key once we have players we feel confident can play the roles required.... Until that time, urgency is most certainly the order of the day. | |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:55 - Aug 18 with 2527 views | Thornburyswan |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:48 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Slightly different reason for the call for patience though, that's the issue here.
I was (am) also one to advocate for patience and time for a system to become optimum, was the same when Laudrup especially did away with our winger system that had become such a huge part of our style. I would have given that months and months to become second nature with the squad and become optimum.
However this is more than a time issue. Time can get us used to patterns of play and get used to each others runs, but time wont really make someone a better passer, wont make someone know how to suddenly hold the ball up or make someone from a defensive minded player into one that can become a creative force.
If its a system ''bedding in'' issue, patience is key. If it's a personnel issue then that needs to be addressed and recognised as a matter of urgency because they can have as much time as they like, but if they are the wrong player - the issue doesn't go away with time.
So patience is absolutely key once we have players we feel confident can play the roles required.... Until that time, urgency is most certainly the order of the day. |
Whilst you make some good points Dr from what I’ve seen & heard about RM & his team they are not for budging have no interest in a plan B - so we will need a fair amount of patience on getting fitness, understanding/coaching & the right players in.
Suspect there will be some more ins & outs over the next 2 weeks to help with it & in the meantime fitness & development can/will be worked on but suspect the Christmas shopping lights will be up & on before we see any meaningful/consistent improvement.
I know most of our Cooperball advocates won’t go for this but I’d take anywhere between 14th - 18th right now. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:59 - Aug 18 with 2519 views | pencoedjack |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:29 - Aug 18 by jack247 |
No we wouldn’t have. Certainly not that easily.
When Martin was appointed, most people were saying this was going to take time and patience and that we were bound to struggle early on. There’s no point over reacting now that something the majority of us predicted is happening.
I genuinely think this system has potential, but we just don’t have enough players suited to it. We need to move the ball quickly and incisively. We also need to be moving quickly into space to allow teammates to do that. Fulton and both wingbacks tend to slow us down, which means we go back and start again, the opposition get everyone in position and it’s nearly impossible to break them down.
We also need players willing to run at opponents like Dyer or Sinclair. Beat a man, force someone to cover him and create space for our passing to exploit.
Lowe up front needs to stop as well. He’s not a target man. Piroe seems a little bit off the pace, but he can win headers, put himself about and bring people into play.
Not sure how good he is defensively, but I’d like to see Lowe and Laird in the wide roles with Piroe up front. |
Lowe as a wing back?
Kin ell |  | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 08:04 - Aug 18 with 2509 views | jack247 |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:48 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Slightly different reason for the call for patience though, that's the issue here.
I was (am) also one to advocate for patience and time for a system to become optimum, was the same when Laudrup especially did away with our winger system that had become such a huge part of our style. I would have given that months and months to become second nature with the squad and become optimum.
However this is more than a time issue. Time can get us used to patterns of play and get used to each others runs, but time wont really make someone a better passer, wont make someone know how to suddenly hold the ball up or make someone from a defensive minded player into one that can become a creative force.
If its a system ''bedding in'' issue, patience is key. If it's a personnel issue then that needs to be addressed and recognised as a matter of urgency because they can have as much time as they like, but if they are the wrong player - the issue doesn't go away with time.
So patience is absolutely key once we have players we feel confident can play the roles required.... Until that time, urgency is most certainly the order of the day. |
This is both.
Martin has stated the players aren’t fit enough yet, this was particularly evident in the Sheffield United game. I’m not certain, but think he’s stated they need time to adapt to the new tactics. I agree on both points.
At the same time, Lowe isn’t a centre forward, I don’t think Bidwell or Latabaudiere are suited to hugging the touchline higher up the pitch than anyone bar the centre forward, I don’t think Fulton suits this style, he’s great at covering players and breaking up attacks, but slows us down in possession too much.
So I agree on the personnel issue (I called it out before Martin was appointed). We need players who can drive at opponents to create space as a minimum. The players we have should be able to improve at making runs to drag defenders and create options.
We also either need to play Piroe, or bring in a centre forward.
Edit - just read Martins comments and he’s used the term ‘square pegs in round holes’. [Post edited 18 Aug 2021 8:29]
| | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 08:06 - Aug 18 with 2498 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:55 - Aug 18 by Thornburyswan |
Whilst you make some good points Dr from what I’ve seen & heard about RM & his team they are not for budging have no interest in a plan B - so we will need a fair amount of patience on getting fitness, understanding/coaching & the right players in.
Suspect there will be some more ins & outs over the next 2 weeks to help with it & in the meantime fitness & development can/will be worked on but suspect the Christmas shopping lights will be up & on before we see any meaningful/consistent improvement.
I know most of our Cooperball advocates won’t go for this but I’d take anywhere between 14th - 18th right now. |
Agreed, that's hence the concern. It's also my understanding regarding the no desire for a short term compromise to the system.
It all feels needlessly drastic to me. I would prefer to see a more balanced approach until we have the right players in. Otherwise we are chucking away points and jeapordising not only our Championship status but the calibre of players we can get in future windows... which by the very same stroke is potentially hampering the growth of this system if it is relying on future windows to work.
I was a Cooperball fan - in so much as I could clearly see it was the most successful way a limited squad like ours could play.
But I much prefer the pass and move old way we used to do things when we had a squad capable of it. I am right on board with it if the owners think they can safely fund the players required to do it.
Playing that way without those players however, is needless suicide though. No amount of time will fix that.
I also agree regarding finishing position. I initially wanted around 12th, now I'm starting to think anything above the drop will do. [Post edited 18 Aug 2021 8:11]
| |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 08:09 - Aug 18 with 2493 views | jack247 |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:39 - Aug 18 by 34dfgdf54 |
Agree with this post word for word.
Something very off about Lowe at the moment though. |
In all fairness to him, he’s just not a centre forward. He did well as a kind of winger/striker hybrid, but winning headers, battling with centre backs, bringing others into attacks isn’t his game.
I’d love to see him on the left, cutting on to his right foot, Laird on the right and Piroe up front. Only thing is I’ve no idea what Lowe is like defensively. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 08:28 - Aug 18 with 2439 views | jack247 |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:59 - Aug 18 by pencoedjack |
Lowe as a wing back?
Kin ell |
They aren’t wingbacks like we’ve been used to though are they? More or less whenever we are in possession, they are in line with the centre forward. Grimes and Downes do more defending. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:07 - Aug 18 with 2002 views | Treforys_Jack |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 07:39 - Aug 18 by 34dfgdf54 |
Agree with this post word for word.
Something very off about Lowe at the moment though. |
Lowe was like it for most of last season as well, then he'd pop up with a couple of goals, then dissappear again for 6 or 7 games. |  | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:44 - Aug 18 with 1931 views | ploppy |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 03:54 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
Absolutely not. Look at the goals, apart from the last corner they were directly as a result of being forced to play in a way we are unable to.
Not just that, but the opposition being completely alert to us not being able to play this way and setting up to punish us, and we do nothing but allow them to.
First goal:-
Every single avenue is closed off for the pass. The one that hasn’t been is just about to be as you can see the play recognising the trap is being set and making a bee line to cover our free man in midfield.
We give the ball away as they knew we would. We then aren’t composed when they have possession either and foul their attacker through the back of him when there wasn’t too much danger. They then score from that free kick.
The next goal - note that they are always matching us man for man in ball playing areas. This is intentional and something you will now be seeing weekly from our opposition. It forces us to make a difficult pass, which we mostly are incapable of doing and also puts the ball carrier under pressure. We are matched 3 for 3 in our own half here:-
Again we lose it as they expect us to and they have a 3 on 3 attack with us back peddling on the back foot and they then go on to score. Look how vulnerable a single misplaced pass leaves us when being matched man for man:-
So would we have lost 3-1 under the old system? Very unlikely indeed. |
See their second goal? I warned everyone after the Blackburn game (obvs, RM wasn't paying attention) that the ball from the goalkeeper (or in this case Brandon Cooper, I think)
into a retreating Grimes with a player up his backside was a disaster waiting to happen. His (Grimes') favourite pass to the LB is cut off, he can't play "round the corner" because he has no right foot. His options are 1. back to Cooper, or 2. back to Benda. Pointless. As I pointed out back then, any mis-control by Grimes and we're in trouble. And that's exactly what happened. I'm available for consultation if RM would like to get in touch. | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:53 - Aug 18 with 1897 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:44 - Aug 18 by ploppy |
See their second goal? I warned everyone after the Blackburn game (obvs, RM wasn't paying attention) that the ball from the goalkeeper (or in this case Brandon Cooper, I think)
into a retreating Grimes with a player up his backside was a disaster waiting to happen. His (Grimes') favourite pass to the LB is cut off, he can't play "round the corner" because he has no right foot. His options are 1. back to Cooper, or 2. back to Benda. Pointless. As I pointed out back then, any mis-control by Grimes and we're in trouble. And that's exactly what happened. I'm available for consultation if RM would like to get in touch. |
To play that way for 90 mins requires serious talent and serious concentration. They need to be specialised players or at the very least be alongside many who are, so they can learn whilst us not being so at risk with everyone.
It’s a matter of time during the 90 that we get caught out multiple times otherwise. At this level you will be punished. | |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:03 - Aug 18 with 1884 views | BillyChong |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 12:53 - Aug 18 by Dr_Parnassus |
To play that way for 90 mins requires serious talent and serious concentration. They need to be specialised players or at the very least be alongside many who are, so they can learn whilst us not being so at risk with everyone.
It’s a matter of time during the 90 that we get caught out multiple times otherwise. At this level you will be punished. |
‘Lack of fitness’ might wash for a few weeks but as you say fear it’s more down to lack of quality to pull this style off | | | |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:07 - Aug 18 with 1864 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:03 - Aug 18 by BillyChong |
‘Lack of fitness’ might wash for a few weeks but as you say fear it’s more down to lack of quality to pull this style off |
I didn’t quite understand that reasoning to be honest. If we tailed off then that would explain that.
But the first goal came after 15 mins and the second not long after the break, both as a result of giving the ball away on our own half. Not sure what fitness has to do with that really.
Maybe he is right and the squad isn’t as fit as it should be, but it’s not the excuse to use for giving the ball away cheaply from the outset. We did it against Blackburn too, from minute 1. | |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:09 - Aug 18 with 1855 views | onehunglow |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:03 - Aug 18 by BillyChong |
‘Lack of fitness’ might wash for a few weeks but as you say fear it’s more down to lack of quality to pull this style off |
So ,let s get this right.
We have a manager selecting players to play on a system they are not suited for.
Not yet anyway .
Innit | |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:23 - Aug 18 with 1726 views | Catullus |
Under Cooper? Who knows, we lost Ayew and Guehi went back. Unless Cooper had brought in decent replacements I wouldn't see us scoring and we might have B Cooper in there too so conceding at set pieces is a definite possibility. The second goal was Grimes fault and that could easily have happened under Steve Cooper.
Ultimately we can believe what we want but none of us can actually know. | |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:30 - Aug 18 with 1704 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 14:23 - Aug 18 by Catullus |
Under Cooper? Who knows, we lost Ayew and Guehi went back. Unless Cooper had brought in decent replacements I wouldn't see us scoring and we might have B Cooper in there too so conceding at set pieces is a definite possibility. The second goal was Grimes fault and that could easily have happened under Steve Cooper.
Ultimately we can believe what we want but none of us can actually know. |
Last season we were without Ayew for 3 games…. We won 2 and lost 1
There was a further 2 games when he played less than 30 mins…. We drew both.
The year before we were without him for 2 games… won 1 and drew the other.
Over the last two seasons we were without Ayew for 7 league games in total… won 3, drew 3, lost 1.
12 points from 7 games, which if that form continued would give us a 78 point return and a certain play off place.
…….
We were without Guehi for 6 games last season. We had 3 wins, 2 draws and 1 loss. 11 points from 6 games, which if that form continued would would give us a record breaking 84 points.
We were very adaptable without our star players last season, contrary to a widely spread belief. [Post edited 18 Aug 2021 14:41]
| |
| |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 18:04 - Aug 18 with 1494 views | monmouth |
| Right l’m putting myself out there on 13:09 - Aug 18 by onehunglow |
So ,let s get this right.
We have a manager selecting players to play on a system they are not suited for.
Not yet anyway .
Innit |
No mun, we have a manager looking at players capabilities that after two weeks he is still finding out about and evaluating. They can probably play the style in training but under real pressure (and by God Stoke have to be given credit for that) those who fail become obvious. Wait until he reshapes the side. I think he’s already realised that Bidwell won’t make it but that Manning might, and that Piroe is likely a better option than Cullen or Lowe.
We have the best manager we could get. He will know more than anyone the size of the job now. And I don’t believe for one second he doesn’t know Stoke duffed us up, nor that some of the players he was praising were absolute manure, but I hope and believe he will be very realistic in private. If not, he simply won’t make it. Judge him in March, not August. |  |
| |
| |
By continuing to use the site, you agree to our use of cookies and to abide by our Terms and Conditions.
