| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? 16:03 - Sep 26 with 4288 views | Dr_Parnassus |
Something I touched upon last week was that we are getting our best results when we are not instructed to only look for the short ball and not told to keep the ball at all costs.
We moved away from that against Bristol City against RM’s wishes according to him, but secured our first win. Of course many of us had been calling for that mixed style for weeks prior and thought that may be the catalyst to him learning that even the best tiki taka style has long balls when required.
Unfortunately he/we reverted back to type and we put in the same displays as we saw prior to that. We started the Luton game like that too, until halftime. We came out of that tunnel far more direct and were more than happy to smash the ball away, ping a long pass or direct one into the channels.
I think Russ needed that second game to show that maybe his short passing at all costs way was not the best way to go and we completely changed against Huddersfield. Still didn’t create as much as I would like a side as talented as us to create, I am addressing the second half in the main, but there was far less focus on meaningless possession, far less focus on short passing and we certainly seemed to control the game more.
In our only two league wins this season, they rank as our highest and second highest in terms of long ball % of any league games we have played this season and rank alongside (and often higher than) what we have been seeing for the last couple of seasons. I will put the 2 lowest also for comparison…
Bristol City WIN - 66 long balls (14% of our pass composition)
Huddersfield WIN - 70 long balls (13.8% of our pass composition)
Stoke LOSS - 51 long balls (6.7% of our pass composition)
Hull DRAW - 29 long balls (4.1% of our pass composition)
In terms of possession, both two league wins also rank as our lowest and second lowest possession % in any league match this season. Again I will put the highest two for comparison.
Huddersfield WIN - 54% possession
Bristol City WIN - 55% possession
Blackburn LOSS - 72% possession
Luton Town DRAW - 73% possession
So it’s pretty undeniable that our two best league results have come when we have adapted a more pragmatic approach, where we have less meaningless possession and aren’t afraid to mix the style with long balls. Our only two league wins have come when we have had our least possession and most long balls, that’s stark.
So in summary, my hope is that Martin is indeed learning and is adaptable contrary to what we were told and we haven’t completely thrown the baby out with the bath water and there is a greater focus on substance than style than there was at the start.
Positive signs if we can keep moving forward with this. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 16:22]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:09 - Sep 26 with 1750 views | DwightYorkeSuperstar |
It is not a coincidence. We concede less chances and subsequently less goals when our defenders are allowed to kick the ball away when under extreme pressure.
Let's hope it continues. |  |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:48 - Sep 26 with 1689 views | 34dfgdf54 |
What was our possession stats first half yesterday when we should have been 2/3 up?
Fitness showed second half as Russ said which is a big worry due to a poor pre season. We couldn’t hold on to the ball as much second half from what I saw. On holiday so wasn’t best of stream. |  | | |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:48 - Sep 26 with 1689 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:42 - Sep 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Swansea have professional analysts and Martin will have all this data and a whole not more in his lap top and a direct line to his staff. I am content he knows what he is doing. He will surely do what works while establishing ground rules from his players. If his players can deliver pin point 35-40 yard passes he will not ban it. |
Indeed, however the point is that we haven’t been seeing it until recently, it’s been long overdue, hence the complaints.
Eventually getting there is great but it would be better to see the obvious picture long before. I won’t complain if it stays this way though, no point in harping on about what has been as long as lessons are learned and we are better for it.
It’s not really about being able to deliver pin point 50 yard passes either, often it’s about clearing the lines. There is a reason we are more successful with less possession, it means instead of putting ourselves under pressure in our own third in order to get our possession stats up (often to the detriment of a goal or two against us) - we are clearing our lines even if it means giving the ball back to the opposition in unthreatening areas. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:52 - Sep 26 with 1683 views | PatchesOHoulihan |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:48 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
Indeed, however the point is that we haven’t been seeing it until recently, it’s been long overdue, hence the complaints.
Eventually getting there is great but it would be better to see the obvious picture long before. I won’t complain if it stays this way though, no point in harping on about what has been as long as lessons are learned and we are better for it.
It’s not really about being able to deliver pin point 50 yard passes either, often it’s about clearing the lines. There is a reason we are more successful with less possession, it means instead of putting ourselves under pressure in our own third in order to get our possession stats up (often to the detriment of a goal or two against us) - we are clearing our lines even if it means giving the ball back to the opposition in unthreatening areas. |
I’m constantly amazed at how highly you value your own opinions |  |
| This is Patches O'Houlihan saying "Take care of your balls, and they'll take care of you." |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:55 - Sep 26 with 1673 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:52 - Sep 26 by PatchesOHoulihan |
I’m constantly amazed at how highly you value your own opinions |
You can be amazed. That’s ok.
Which part to you disagree with exactly? If any.. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:55 - Sep 26 with 1670 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:55 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
You can be amazed. That’s ok.
Which part to you disagree with exactly? If any.. |
Got the stats at half time? | | | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:03 - Sep 26 with 1652 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:55 - Sep 26 by 34dfgdf54 |
Got the stats at half time? |
No, you?
Doesn’t make a difference to the point I am making. The only thing that may show is if the pragmatism could have been forced upon us and a natural reaction to fatigue/lack of fitness (there really shouldn’t be either 12 matches into a season) rather than management instruction.
I would like to think it was due to instruction and we didn’t get another Bristol City on our hands. Happy to give Russ the benefit of the doubt. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:06 - Sep 26 with 1646 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:03 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
No, you?
Doesn’t make a difference to the point I am making. The only thing that may show is if the pragmatism could have been forced upon us and a natural reaction to fatigue/lack of fitness (there really shouldn’t be either 12 matches into a season) rather than management instruction.
I would like to think it was due to instruction and we didn’t get another Bristol City on our hands. Happy to give Russ the benefit of the doubt. |
No I haven’t but asked the analytics guy.
It makes all the difference, we won’t play like we did second half when we are up to speed, we were nowhere near as fit as our opponents, Russ confirmed after we aren’t fit enough to play like he wants for 90 minutes yet. | | | |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:10 - Sep 26 with 1635 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:06 - Sep 26 by 34dfgdf54 |
No I haven’t but asked the analytics guy.
It makes all the difference, we won’t play like we did second half when we are up to speed, we were nowhere near as fit as our opponents, Russ confirmed after we aren’t fit enough to play like he wants for 90 minutes yet. |
It makes no difference to the point I made. It may make some difference to a new point you wish to make.
My point is that we have had our best two results and only two league wins this season when we have had significantly lower possession than usual (our two lowest of the season) and our highest amount of long balls (highest amounts of the season). How much of each was in each half is of no significance to that. That fact remains regardless of reason.
It will just tell us if the sensible style is likely to continue and be learned from or are we likely to revert to 75% possession again.
As I said, I’d like to think it was intentional as that is where we are getting our points from so far this season. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 17:16]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:16 - Sep 26 with 1603 views | ReslovenSwan1 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:55 - Sep 26 by 34dfgdf54 |
Got the stats at half time? |
The good things about stats is that you can prove to yourself and others that you are right. You can of course control the data bank and limit yourself to the last 3 , 5 or 10 games to suit your own narrative. You have to applaud Dr P for his research and time. Only a similarly contentious person can compete and argue.
This thread appears to promote the idea that Martin's methods are not productive or good for the club. Two lines of thought.
a) The recent improved results are caused by Martin compromising on his own philosophy.
b) Martin on the other hand promotes the idea that improved results are do to the implementation of his new methods and the early defeats (high possession stats) were due to a result of lack of fitness and unfamiliarity with his methods.
The stats may back up a) to an extent and supported by Martin not being happy about aspects of the win at Bristol City. He might argue that the win would have been bigger if they had carried out the instructions more vigorously.
Personally I favour b) but we shall see as the season develops. Presumably against Fulham Swansea might see its possession level drop . |  |
| Wise sage since Toshack era |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:22 - Sep 26 with 1591 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:16 - Sep 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
The good things about stats is that you can prove to yourself and others that you are right. You can of course control the data bank and limit yourself to the last 3 , 5 or 10 games to suit your own narrative. You have to applaud Dr P for his research and time. Only a similarly contentious person can compete and argue.
This thread appears to promote the idea that Martin's methods are not productive or good for the club. Two lines of thought.
a) The recent improved results are caused by Martin compromising on his own philosophy.
b) Martin on the other hand promotes the idea that improved results are do to the implementation of his new methods and the early defeats (high possession stats) were due to a result of lack of fitness and unfamiliarity with his methods.
The stats may back up a) to an extent and supported by Martin not being happy about aspects of the win at Bristol City. He might argue that the win would have been bigger if they had carried out the instructions more vigorously.
Personally I favour b) but we shall see as the season develops. Presumably against Fulham Swansea might see its possession level drop . |
They can only prove you are right if you are right.
These aren’t “selected” games as you suggested. This encompasses all 9 league games this season, it takes into consideration all of them.
Our two lowest possession games and our two highest % of long balls are both from the same two games, the only two league games we have won.
There is no narrative there other than the obvious truth.
The thread does not promote the idea that Martins methods are not good for the club at all, that’s a conclusion you have drawn yourself in order to argue against it and spin it into a “positive vs negative” angle of approach other than facts vs facts, because the facts will always side with me as that’s what I refer to.
This thread is praising Martin and stating that indeed his methods could be fantastic for the club IF this style of play is intentional and developed from learning.
Risca has since suggested it may be un-intentional and due to a lack of fitness which forced us to play more pragmatically. He may be correct of course, which would be a shame and kill any positivity that the last game and a half has given me.
I prefer to remain optimistic and give Russell the credit for adapting. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 17:23]
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:28 - Sep 26 with 1577 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:06 - Sep 26 by 34dfgdf54 |
No I haven’t but asked the analytics guy.
It makes all the difference, we won’t play like we did second half when we are up to speed, we were nowhere near as fit as our opponents, Russ confirmed after we aren’t fit enough to play like he wants for 90 minutes yet. |
What made the most difference yesterday was finally hitting the right combination at the back, which had the effect of changing our shape.
We didn’t play 3 at the back yesterday, we played a sweeper (Naughton) two wide defenders (Cabango and Manning) and two midfielders who dropped back into the holes when defending (with Cabango and Manning pushed wider) and pushed up and narrower when attacking (with Bidwell and Laird outside them and Cabango and Manning tighter. Much more similar to the Rodgers formation with the exception of the sweeper position being usually behind (Naughton) rather than usually in front (Leon).
Naughton had a fantastic first half and drove everything in combination with Downes who also had an outstanding half.
Miles more purpose and energy although the changes didn’t work second half really.
Great three points. Let’s hope he sticks with this as the thought of Bennett coming back in and going flat again is worrying. |  | | |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:46 - Sep 26 with 1560 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:10 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
It makes no difference to the point I made. It may make some difference to a new point you wish to make.
My point is that we have had our best two results and only two league wins this season when we have had significantly lower possession than usual (our two lowest of the season) and our highest amount of long balls (highest amounts of the season). How much of each was in each half is of no significance to that. That fact remains regardless of reason.
It will just tell us if the sensible style is likely to continue and be learned from or are we likely to revert to 75% possession again.
As I said, I’d like to think it was intentional as that is where we are getting our points from so far this season. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 17:16]
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60% first half against a side who also play a possession based game I believe? That’s when we were at our best, that’s what will pick up more wins, would have been more of the same second half if we were up to speed.
We had a shocker in pre season and it’s unfortunately showing. | | | |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:47 - Sep 26 with 1558 views | jackrmee |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:42 - Sep 26 by ReslovenSwan1 |
Swansea have professional analysts and Martin will have all this data and a whole not more in his lap top and a direct line to his staff. I am content he knows what he is doing. He will surely do what works while establishing ground rules from his players. If his players can deliver pin point 35-40 yard passes he will not ban it. |
He will actively encourage it I'm sure.
That doesn't mean he's turning pragmatic.
On the videos I watched of Rhys Williams, those diagonal balls were one of his best weapons. |  |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:50 - Sep 26 with 1555 views | jackrmee |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 16:52 - Sep 26 by PatchesOHoulihan |
I’m constantly amazed at how highly you value your own opinions |
He should apply for personal advisor to our manager.
The club shuld open up a post.
Ongoing place, as all managers present and future will surely benefit and we will win the premier fkin league. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:52 - Sep 26 with 1553 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:46 - Sep 26 by 34dfgdf54 |
60% first half against a side who also play a possession based game I believe? That’s when we were at our best, that’s what will pick up more wins, would have been more of the same second half if we were up to speed.
We had a shocker in pre season and it’s unfortunately showing. |
Which still ranks at our second lowest possession % this season even if we kept that up to the end of the match.
I believe only Bristol City and Huddersfield Town matches recorded overall possession % lower than 60%. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:53 - Sep 26 with 1553 views | jackrmee |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:03 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
No, you?
Doesn’t make a difference to the point I am making. The only thing that may show is if the pragmatism could have been forced upon us and a natural reaction to fatigue/lack of fitness (there really shouldn’t be either 12 matches into a season) rather than management instruction.
I would like to think it was due to instruction and we didn’t get another Bristol City on our hands. Happy to give Russ the benefit of the doubt. |
First half stats are extremely important in your argument.
You are saying RM changed tactics and that's how we won.
The reason we won, was because of the first half. Those stats are what we need to look at.
I hope there's not a little intentional bias creeping into your "fair assessments" against the "militants" who disagree with your story. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:56 - Sep 26 with 1551 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:53 - Sep 26 by jackrmee |
First half stats are extremely important in your argument.
You are saying RM changed tactics and that's how we won.
The reason we won, was because of the first half. Those stats are what we need to look at.
I hope there's not a little intentional bias creeping into your "fair assessments" against the "militants" who disagree with your story. |
I am just stating what happened.
The first half possession stats as Risca presented still haven’t changed anything, even if they continued until the end of the game it still ranks as your second lowest possession % this season.
I have zero bias, why would I? I simply want us to win. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:57 - Sep 26 with 1549 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:50 - Sep 26 by jackrmee |
He should apply for personal advisor to our manager.
The club shuld open up a post.
Ongoing place, as all managers present and future will surely benefit and we will win the premier fkin league. |
They would have to outbid my current employer first. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:58 - Sep 26 with 1548 views | jackrmee |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:22 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
They can only prove you are right if you are right.
These aren’t “selected” games as you suggested. This encompasses all 9 league games this season, it takes into consideration all of them.
Our two lowest possession games and our two highest % of long balls are both from the same two games, the only two league games we have won.
There is no narrative there other than the obvious truth.
The thread does not promote the idea that Martins methods are not good for the club at all, that’s a conclusion you have drawn yourself in order to argue against it and spin it into a “positive vs negative” angle of approach other than facts vs facts, because the facts will always side with me as that’s what I refer to.
This thread is praising Martin and stating that indeed his methods could be fantastic for the club IF this style of play is intentional and developed from learning.
Risca has since suggested it may be un-intentional and due to a lack of fitness which forced us to play more pragmatically. He may be correct of course, which would be a shame and kill any positivity that the last game and a half has given me.
I prefer to remain optimistic and give Russell the credit for adapting. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 17:23]
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Anyone can handpick stats to suit their narrative.
I agree with Risca.
Why won't you look at the first half stats then?
After all, you are the guy that people come to to settle arguments, as they know you know your stuff and have all the games on archive. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:58 - Sep 26 with 1548 views | jackrmee |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:28 - Sep 26 by londonlisa2001 |
What made the most difference yesterday was finally hitting the right combination at the back, which had the effect of changing our shape.
We didn’t play 3 at the back yesterday, we played a sweeper (Naughton) two wide defenders (Cabango and Manning) and two midfielders who dropped back into the holes when defending (with Cabango and Manning pushed wider) and pushed up and narrower when attacking (with Bidwell and Laird outside them and Cabango and Manning tighter. Much more similar to the Rodgers formation with the exception of the sweeper position being usually behind (Naughton) rather than usually in front (Leon).
Naughton had a fantastic first half and drove everything in combination with Downes who also had an outstanding half.
Miles more purpose and energy although the changes didn’t work second half really.
Great three points. Let’s hope he sticks with this as the thought of Bennett coming back in and going flat again is worrying. |
Downes haas been dropping into the backline for at least 3 or 4 matches, with 2 CBs playing very wide. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:59 - Sep 26 with 1546 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:47 - Sep 26 by jackrmee |
He will actively encourage it I'm sure.
That doesn't mean he's turning pragmatic.
On the videos I watched of Rhys Williams, those diagonal balls were one of his best weapons. |
Nobody is advocating for us to “turn pragmatic” nor has it ever been the case.
What has been noted from week 1 is that we need “more” pragmatism in the right areas. A mixed approach.
When we have done that this season, we have been successful. | |
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| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 18:01 - Sep 26 with 1538 views | onehunglow |
| Long ball and possession shackles finally coming off? on 17:22 - Sep 26 by Dr_Parnassus |
They can only prove you are right if you are right.
These aren’t “selected” games as you suggested. This encompasses all 9 league games this season, it takes into consideration all of them.
Our two lowest possession games and our two highest % of long balls are both from the same two games, the only two league games we have won.
There is no narrative there other than the obvious truth.
The thread does not promote the idea that Martins methods are not good for the club at all, that’s a conclusion you have drawn yourself in order to argue against it and spin it into a “positive vs negative” angle of approach other than facts vs facts, because the facts will always side with me as that’s what I refer to.
This thread is praising Martin and stating that indeed his methods could be fantastic for the club IF this style of play is intentional and developed from learning.
Risca has since suggested it may be un-intentional and due to a lack of fitness which forced us to play more pragmatically. He may be correct of course, which would be a shame and kill any positivity that the last game and a half has given me.
I prefer to remain optimistic and give Russell the credit for adapting. [Post edited 26 Sep 2021 17:23]
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Who gives a monkeys as long as we do well | |
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