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Every country in the world has a deficit and is in "debt". So by that logic the UK should be in a "massive dark hole" that cannot borrow?
There is a massive difference though. The Uk has it's own currency, if Wales went indy what currency would we use? The UK, which may well mean England, could refuse us the use of Sterling. What do we do then, we have a debt but no currency. We have no credit rating or at least a bad credit rating beause we have never paid off a debt and we need tens of billions to spend on infrastructure.
If we stay the uk debt ever increases as spaffer and his posh pals loot us.
A debt taken in your name, is not a debt taken with your consent. That a big difference.
When the Baltic states split from Russia debt was not an issue despite the Moscow debt. This principle goes back to 1920s for all of Estonia, Lithuania, and Latvia. The debt was Russian only.
Cymru is not a hostage.
The baltic states did not just split, it wasnt a democratic vote, they split from the USSR whom had absorbed them, taken them over. They were not willing members of that entity.
Wales is a willing member of the UK and debt is taken on in our name also as part of the UK. If Wales was to refuse any money from Westminster then we could refuse our shre of the debt but seeing as we run the largest deficit in the UK (officially) and get funded by over 13 billion per year, how can we refuse to accept our share?
Your last line captures it perfectly, Cymru is not a hostage but the baltic states were, as were other "members" of the USSR.
In 1920 the Baltic states were freed when the Tsarist Empire collapsed, again they were prisoners much like the countries that were part of the British Empire but sought their freedom.
The baltic states did not just split, it wasnt a democratic vote, they split from the USSR whom had absorbed them, taken them over. They were not willing members of that entity.
Wales is a willing member of the UK and debt is taken on in our name also as part of the UK. If Wales was to refuse any money from Westminster then we could refuse our shre of the debt but seeing as we run the largest deficit in the UK (officially) and get funded by over 13 billion per year, how can we refuse to accept our share?
Your last line captures it perfectly, Cymru is not a hostage but the baltic states were, as were other "members" of the USSR.
In 1920 the Baltic states were freed when the Tsarist Empire collapsed, again they were prisoners much like the countries that were part of the British Empire but sought their freedom.
The welsh people have never voted to be part of this union.
It was imposed on the welsh people by force of arms.
We can use any currency we want. Personally i would follow the north of Ireland and Scotland and use the Euro.
The baltic states did not just split, it wasnt a democratic vote, they split from the USSR whom had absorbed them, taken them over. They were not willing members of that entity.
Wales is a willing member of the UK and debt is taken on in our name also as part of the UK. If Wales was to refuse any money from Westminster then we could refuse our shre of the debt but seeing as we run the largest deficit in the UK (officially) and get funded by over 13 billion per year, how can we refuse to accept our share?
Your last line captures it perfectly, Cymru is not a hostage but the baltic states were, as were other "members" of the USSR.
In 1920 the Baltic states were freed when the Tsarist Empire collapsed, again they were prisoners much like the countries that were part of the British Empire but sought their freedom.
I mean Wales didn't voluntarily join the UK as the Scots did and we have never been given the option to leave? As for the monetary figures and debt, it is impossible to accurately work out most of the figures for Wales alone due to the way they are accounted and attributed. I mean we are forced to pay billions toward vanity projects such as trident and HS2, so i would want those knocked off the "debt" for a start. But we must accept a share of debt as the Scots and English should.
I mean Wales didn't voluntarily join the UK as the Scots did and we have never been given the option to leave? As for the monetary figures and debt, it is impossible to accurately work out most of the figures for Wales alone due to the way they are accounted and attributed. I mean we are forced to pay billions toward vanity projects such as trident and HS2, so i would want those knocked off the "debt" for a start. But we must accept a share of debt as the Scots and English should.
A debt taken in our name, but without our consent is not a debt.
The welsh people have never voted to be part of this union.
It was imposed on the welsh people by force of arms.
We can use any currency we want. Personally i would follow the north of Ireland and Scotland and use the Euro.
That was true 600 years ago, try living in the present. We are now happily part of the UK by public consent as proved by the fact that more people turn out for a UK general election than for Senedd elections.
Despite all the rabble rousing there is NO massive groundswell of support for an indyref, they can't even get 50% of people to bother voting in Senedd elections and the only true indy party comes a lofty third with fewer votes than the tories.
WE CANNOT use ANY currency we want, we have to ask permission from the people whose currency it is, if we left the UK we CANNOT use Sterling without the UK's permission, same goes for the Euro, the Dollar or any other currency. We can have our own currency and call it the pound/dollar/euro/shekel/ dong/dinar etc but it would be a new currency unless we had permission to use an existing currency. The North of Ireland and Scotland aren't indy yet you buffoon. When/if they are we shall see what currency they use, in NI's case, if they reunite it will be the Euro but Scotland, not until or unless they are members of the EU and ask the current "prospective members" how long they have been waiting,
A debt taken in our name, but without our consent is not a debt.
And the flip side of debt is assets.
[Post edited 30 Jun 2022 22:04]
Hmmm, assets, what assets do we have that weren't paid for by UK money?
You keep saying that the UK has a massive, unsustainable debt but now there's these assets, can you quantify them? What assets do we have in Wales that weren't built with UK money and techinically owned by the UK so at the very best we have a 1 sixteenth share of them?
Groundhog day, the same points raised, the same questions asked but never any answers that make any sense.
Hmmm, assets, what assets do we have that weren't paid for by UK money?
You keep saying that the UK has a massive, unsustainable debt but now there's these assets, can you quantify them? What assets do we have in Wales that weren't built with UK money and techinically owned by the UK so at the very best we have a 1 sixteenth share of them?
Groundhog day, the same points raised, the same questions asked but never any answers that make any sense.
If Wales had independence how many companies would move just a couple of miles back over the bridge. It would all come down to subsidies and finance that Wales could not afford. Large state employers like the DVLA would be gone as well. Not that it is ever going to happen. People when presented with the facts would never vote independence it would be suicidal.
If Wales had independence how many companies would move just a couple of miles back over the bridge. It would all come down to subsidies and finance that Wales could not afford. Large state employers like the DVLA would be gone as well. Not that it is ever going to happen. People when presented with the facts would never vote independence it would be suicidal.
Hmmm, assets, what assets do we have that weren't paid for by UK money?
You keep saying that the UK has a massive, unsustainable debt but now there's these assets, can you quantify them? What assets do we have in Wales that weren't built with UK money and techinically owned by the UK so at the very best we have a 1 sixteenth share of them?
Groundhog day, the same points raised, the same questions asked but never any answers that make any sense.
No no, i meant our share of the UK assets. Works both ways see.
Lets be honest you are trying to sink a discussion on Indy due to technicalities that will be worked through. The Czech Republic and Slovakia shows it can be sorted. Of course it can.
Both Scotland and Ireland will solve the currency and land border issues before Cymru gets to chose.
No no, i meant our share of the UK assets. Works both ways see.
Lets be honest you are trying to sink a discussion on Indy due to technicalities that will be worked through. The Czech Republic and Slovakia shows it can be sorted. Of course it can.
Both Scotland and Ireland will solve the currency and land border issues before Cymru gets to chose.
Cymru is going to be free.
Trying to sink? It always comes down to the technicalities, look at Brexit, they are still trying to sort the technicalities out and we were only in the EU 41 years.
Now these UK assets, seeing as Wales is allegedly heavily subsidised the technicality may be that we paid nothing towards the Uk assets you speak of. We spend more than we raise being the point. That's an argument that could go on for years because we all know the historical English overlords raped Wales for many billions. Try quantifying it though.
Ireland will have to have the Euro if they reunite, that's obvious. Scotland though, that will be the big decision and even if England allows Scotland to use Sterling it doesn't mean they have to let Wales. In fact, as it is such a massive fact of the argument they will probably go to any lengths to deny Sterling to any country that exits the Union, that alone will be a big reason why people will not vote to leave. Drakeford has said similar.
Trying to sink? It always comes down to the technicalities, look at Brexit, they are still trying to sort the technicalities out and we were only in the EU 41 years.
Now these UK assets, seeing as Wales is allegedly heavily subsidised the technicality may be that we paid nothing towards the Uk assets you speak of. We spend more than we raise being the point. That's an argument that could go on for years because we all know the historical English overlords raped Wales for many billions. Try quantifying it though.
Ireland will have to have the Euro if they reunite, that's obvious. Scotland though, that will be the big decision and even if England allows Scotland to use Sterling it doesn't mean they have to let Wales. In fact, as it is such a massive fact of the argument they will probably go to any lengths to deny Sterling to any country that exits the Union, that alone will be a big reason why people will not vote to leave. Drakeford has said similar.
They can’t deny the use of Sterling, any country can use any currency they like but obviously if Scotland chose to use Sterling they would still be under the thrall of the Bank of England and therefore would not have financial independence or any control over their money. Same if they used the euro. Their best bet would be to create their own central bank with their own currency but that is fraught with problems too, especially considering most of their trade would be with England.
They can’t deny the use of Sterling, any country can use any currency they like but obviously if Scotland chose to use Sterling they would still be under the thrall of the Bank of England and therefore would not have financial independence or any control over their money. Same if they used the euro. Their best bet would be to create their own central bank with their own currency but that is fraught with problems too, especially considering most of their trade would be with England.
They can’t deny the use of Sterling, any country can use any currency they like but obviously if Scotland chose to use Sterling they would still be under the thrall of the Bank of England and therefore would not have financial independence or any control over their money. Same if they used the euro. Their best bet would be to create their own central bank with their own currency but that is fraught with problems too, especially considering most of their trade would be with England.
To use Sterling the Scottish would have to acept being under the BoE's direct fiscal control. The Westminster government still says Scotland cannot use Sterling. I guess we'll find out what is right but I believe there is some kind of legal case coming to decide this.
Would Scotland accept the BoE's rules? If not then the answer still is that Scotland cannot use Sterling.
To use Sterling the Scottish would have to acept being under the BoE's direct fiscal control. The Westminster government still says Scotland cannot use Sterling. I guess we'll find out what is right but I believe there is some kind of legal case coming to decide this.
Would Scotland accept the BoE's rules? If not then the answer still is that Scotland cannot use Sterling.
Lets see what the legal eagles say.
Any country can use whatever currency they like. Scotland could use Irn Bru as a currency if they liked.
The Westminster government would have no jurisdiction over an independent Scotland. If Scotland wanted to use Sterling informally they could but would have no say over interest rates/exchange rates etc. They might struggle to borrow and it would inevitably cost more. They could apply to enter a formal financial union, Westminster could refuse that, I think George Osbourne ruled it out last time. But again they wouldn’t have control over their own finances. They could use the Euro (they don’t need to be in the EU to do this) but again they’d be in the same situation.
Their best best long term would be to have their own currency and own central bank, but as we know politicians do not look long term. The issue of currency was probably the main sticking point in the last referendum and they haven’t made any more progress since.
Any country can use whatever currency they like. Scotland could use Irn Bru as a currency if they liked.
The Westminster government would have no jurisdiction over an independent Scotland. If Scotland wanted to use Sterling informally they could but would have no say over interest rates/exchange rates etc. They might struggle to borrow and it would inevitably cost more. They could apply to enter a formal financial union, Westminster could refuse that, I think George Osbourne ruled it out last time. But again they wouldn’t have control over their own finances. They could use the Euro (they don’t need to be in the EU to do this) but again they’d be in the same situation.
Their best best long term would be to have their own currency and own central bank, but as we know politicians do not look long term. The issue of currency was probably the main sticking point in the last referendum and they haven’t made any more progress since.
Yes but …..
The last indy ref was won by No saying that was the only way to stay in EU, and Devo Max was going ti happen (the vow).
Instead the Scots got Brexit and Johnson. 62% voted against Brexit.
The last indy ref was won by No saying that was the only way to stay in EU, and Devo Max was going ti happen (the vow).
Instead the Scots got Brexit and Johnson. 62% voted against Brexit.
Nothing will stop Indy2. Its done.
They’ve essentially got Devo max. They have tax raising powers they don’t use. They have borrowing powers they don’t use. The Scottish government has control over every aspect of Scottish life. They’ve got their own legal system their own courts. What aspect of Scottish life does Boris actually control? His and westminsters control over Scotland has diminished significantly over the past two decades.
Any country can use whatever currency they like. Scotland could use Irn Bru as a currency if they liked.
The Westminster government would have no jurisdiction over an independent Scotland. If Scotland wanted to use Sterling informally they could but would have no say over interest rates/exchange rates etc. They might struggle to borrow and it would inevitably cost more. They could apply to enter a formal financial union, Westminster could refuse that, I think George Osbourne ruled it out last time. But again they wouldn’t have control over their own finances. They could use the Euro (they don’t need to be in the EU to do this) but again they’d be in the same situation.
Their best best long term would be to have their own currency and own central bank, but as we know politicians do not look long term. The issue of currency was probably the main sticking point in the last referendum and they haven’t made any more progress since.
They can call their own currency anything they like but calling something Sterling doesn't make it Sterling. To use Sterling they'd have to accept full fiscal control from England, the BoE and as Drakeford has said, that is not independence.
They can have their own currency and call it the Raheem Sterling if they want, when they choose indy. But it won't be UK Sterling.
Anything else is just playing with words. If the UK government says they cannot use Sterling then who are we to disagree, unless a court says different.
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